Best Codex For Pre-Heresy = Space Wolves?

[Pacific81]

Legatus, sorry if my previous post came accross as a little headstrong and authoritarian! Still, the sarcastic comment at the end isn't really necessary from someone who always puts such well thought out arguments foward.

 

I guess that ultimately it comed down to interpretation, although the question of ignoring BL material is on quite shaky grounds, when one considers that Merrett, Abnett and co. said at Gencon last year that, 'as far as the events of the HH are concerned, the books being released as part of the Horus Heresy series should be regarded as canon as far as the events of that period are concerned'. Alan Merrett is the original author of the background in Collected Visions, and also the 'godfather' who all the HH series writers are turning to and conferring with concerning plot development. I've had this confirmed to me in person by people who have met the writers personally, and Dan Abnett has confirmed the same process on his blog. The plot of the books so far has mirrored that covered by Collected Visions exactly, and I should imagine will continue to do so.

 

The question is, do we ignore this great universe and background that is being created (perhaps the largest narrative development in the history of the game) in favour of the 15 lines of material in the Marine codex covering the Heresy?

 

A large part of the attraction of pre-heresy modelling and gaming is the wild field left open to us because it hasn't been squeezed into a particular codex or rulebook. At the Age of the Emperor Event in Nottingham earlier this year I was astounded by the number of different interpretations of the different Legions there were - taking the World Eaters as an example, they had everything from classic marine formations, to daemon heavy berserker forces.

 

In summary, as far as I am concerned there is far more evidence supporting the use of these weapons and vehicles than there is not - certainly alot more people now seem to have taken Collected Visions and the Horus heresy books to heart, and that hardcore group of Iron Hands players who threw their toys out of the pram when they read their Primarch lost his head has got every smaller. One look at any of the increasing multitude of pre-heresy forums and specialist gaming groups is evidence of that.

[Legatus]

It becomes an issue when Codices or source books published after a certain Black Library (or specifically Horus Heresy) novel still describes events as did the previous Codices, and are not confirming the altered Black Library stories. I have to check the current Codices later to come up with some examples, but I guess assault cannons might be one. (It is also not easy since I have not read any HH novels.) One question then might be, if Alan Merret is in charge of canon, then why doesn't he make sure that the Codices are up to date and in line with the Horus Heresy novels? Why did George Man felt the need to distinguish between BL published material and GW studio published material?

[ArcticFox]

There's always going to be disagreement no matter how you do it. Regardless of how carefully you read the books and research the rules, there will always be some conflicting piece of information somewhere. When you unveil your wicked awesome PH army there will ALWAYS be some obnoxious know-it-all who will point to some element of your army or another and try to tell you why it doesn't belong.

 

Ultimately what you have to do is read up on as much PH material as you can with whatever legion you choose to play, and then build it according to the understanding you have based on what you read, filling in the gaps with your own judgement. Which 'dex to use? Go hang out at a GW shop and look through the store copies of their books and try to decide which rule set most closely resembles your image of the Legion. If you use the SM 'dex you know there's certain wargear you need to be sure to leave out. If you use the CSM 'dex You will need to be careful to leave out the demonic material. BT book? SW book? DA book? Take your time. You can start working on the models now if you want to.

 

At the end of the day, the goal here is to make an army that FEELS like a PH army to you. You're not building a tournament winner here most likely as no matter what you choose to do there will be aspects of the army you have to leave out for fluff sake. Don't sweat it.

 

One thing I'd recommend if you REALLY want to make it look like PH fluff is try to get as many old edition models as you can. Get MkI Rhinos, MkI Land Raiders (The ones that look like TiE fighters) and those goofy looking old school dreadnoughts. That'll do more toward giving your force a PH look than anything else, even painstakingly choosing all Mk4 marine armor...

 

And don't spend too much time sweating things like markings and paint schemes. Use the novels or CSM for its cues but don't be afraid to invent your own. Approach it as if NOBODY has ever tried to do that particular PH legion before. Make it your own and you'll be fine.

 

And post pics!

[CDR Grendelwulf]

What does anyone else think?

 

Is this now the best codex to use to represent a pre-Heresy Marine force?

Maybe not the best, but it certainly is an option.

I lean more towards the C:CSM = PH. Squads larger than C:SM/C:SW,

more befitting a Legion rather than a Chapter.

SW Grey Hunters are very comparable to Chaos Space Marines.

All except size of squads and having a shooty bolter option.

 

You can lean away from using the more daemonic choices, but I would just use them

as augmented servitors of the Legion...possibly in accord to using the Adeptus Mech more.

 

Fluff is always subjective. Changes/Retcons in fluff can be attributed to the

Inquisitor golden rule: Everything You Have Been Told Is A Lie!

Or, just miscommunication over the millenia. Or likely both.

 

If you really feel the inspiration inusing C:SW, go ahead. Flesh it out for us who may not see it yet.

 

..and, yes, post pictures!

 

Ciao,

CDR Grendelwulf

[Pacific81]

First of all, have to say what an excellent post ArcticFox, you've really summed up what I feel about pre-heresy - that for many of us its an opportunity to really go to town with the painting and modelling side of things, away from the constraints found within the 40k era which has been defined and re-defined constantly over the past 20 years. Like I said, the plethora of different examples I saw of different Legions at the Tempus Fugitives event really showed that. With a few exceptions, there really were no two armies the same!

 

I have to say though I don't at all agree with just using RT era models - really using some similar style equipment and weapons in Collected Visions was a not-entirely successful attempt by GW to squeeze in old material and miniatures into the history of the game universe. The models from the RT era, while exerting a certain charm for anyone who used to play the game back then, don't really come anywhere close the standard of current stuff or even the sculpts that fans are producing for their own PH ideas. Thats an opinion I've reached after seeing tons of armies which have used both approaches, and the bespoke-converted range of more recently produced minatures converted by fans seem to hit a much higher mark artistically! But, of course this is just my opinion :P

[ArcticFox]

Point well taken (and thanks for the kind words :) ).

 

I've been going over this same issue myself as I have a desire to go PH wit8h a new army but I've yet to decide which. I picked up a copy of CSM mostly to read the fluff, and while it is possible to do a force from it using no demonic powers or influences, it's pretty tough and it means not using half the available stuff.

[Pacific81]

I think the important thing is to consider exactly what kind of force you want to represent - is it at the beginning of the Great Crusade, with Astartes forces barely having finished the wars of unification, or is it a force stood on one side or the other at the walls of the Palace on Terra, the ruins of the Imperium around them? Is it a force from at some point within that 200 year period? Whatever you chose it will vary massively during that time. There is some argument to make that the few centuries of the great crusade saw more development (in terms of technology) and change in culture within the Legions than the next 10,000 years combined - and this is something that gives us great scope to create a really unique force. It also presents a big challenge as to what ruleset to use.

 

If you're part of a gaming group which is tolerant of house rules then I can't recommend the Tempus Fugitives rulepacks strongly enough. They were developed by guys who spent a lot of time researching all of the Heresy background material, and then the documents themselves spent months being picked apart by enthusiasts and refined. I'm not saying they are perfect (and after all, they are still a personal conception), but they go some way to mitigating the constraints placed on us by using one codex or another. You can get force lists for the Crusade era, early Heresy era and they are currently constructing a ruleset for the siege of Terra era - Click here (you will need to register to download)

 

Also, I spent some time deciding what codex to use for my World Eaters, it might help your own decision a bit! click here!

[Yogi]

The way to defeat thorn in your side posters OP is to make an army without asking about it. Then post it. Its much easier to gain forgiveness then gain permission. In this case from peers, some of which just hate anyone to have more fun then them. Just do it OP.

[Novasry]

just thought I'd jump in a give my idea on this...

 

I'm currently in the process of building a Luna Wolves army, and IMO it's a toss up between C:SM and C:SW...

 

C:SM allows for a more tactical role, with Combat Tactics and other special rules and options that allow for the classic marine army, i.e. Ultras, from what i've read the Luna Wolves were much like the Ultras on the battlefield, well drilled and quick to follow the chain of command.

 

However, C:SW shows the structure i believe to be correct, all Luna Wolves were trained to fight in ALL situations, ranged combat and close combat, which makes the Grey Hunters load out ideal and Counter-Attack represents their ability to quickly change their battle plans...

 

and for my purposes the ability to take 4 HQ's means i can build the Mournival :D (Abby as a Wolf Lord and Tarik, Little Horus and Loken and Battle Leaders)

 

of course C:CSM is also an option, but i'm a purist against Chaos, so thats dirty to touch ;)

[Pacific81]

of course C:CSM is also an option, but i'm a purist against Chaos, so thats dirty to touch :P

 

And of course, the less people use the Chaos Codex the sooner we will get another one, or at least some Pantheon-specific ones!

 

Codex Space Wolves is always going to have criticism from people thinking you just want to use the latest 'shiny new thing'. But, I think if you justify everything within the army you are creating (and don't go for cheap 'counts as' rule-mongering) then it could work well, because to put it simply grey hunters are harder than standard space marines, and we're always reading through the HH novels how badass marines are :)

[Hfran Morkai]

Codex Space Wolves is always going to have criticism from people thinking you just want to use the latest 'shiny new thing'. But, I think if you justify everything within the army you are creating (and don't go for cheap 'counts as' rule-mongering) then it could work well, because to put it simply grey hunters are harder than standard space marines, and we're always reading through the HH novels how badass marines are :P

 

Does this mean some people will play their marines as nids come January?

 

And well put, the Wolves are much harder than a codex marine! Because we're insane! We were known for it before the heresy and we're not changing any time soon (well the next ten years or so)

[Pacific81]

Does this mean some people will play their marines as nids come January?

 

You said it first! :D

[Taerij]

I wanted to butt my own thoughts in here as I just blogged something similar.

 

Firstly, I think some people are far too defensive of their precious armies. You have to appreciate that us pre-Heresy players don't have our own Codex to use, so we have to make a choice and hopefully most of us decide for the right reasons. Too many people are quick to judge us as bang-wagon gamers, wanting to use the latest power tool to field our armies. Well, that's just plain wrong.

 

Like Pacific, when I used World Eaters, I felt the Blood Angel codex best suited them as they were the most combat-orientated force in my eyes. The Death company represented raged berserkers. Assault squads as core and ferocious dreadnoughts, they all made sense. This is a matter of applying the legion's style to what in-game options a codex has. We can only deal with counts-as.

 

Now, I owe my fealty to Sons of Horus, formerly Luna Wolves, the finest legion serving the Emperor. They are reknown for their spearhead deployment, so Drop Pods are essential. That outright removes C:CSM as a choice. I want my force to emphasize the versatility and strengths of the Justaerin Terminators. Wolf Guard Terminators present the best spread of options for this. Mostly, I want core Astartes that don't cost an arm and a leg, but stand up to the heroic tales we all read in the novels. Tactical marines simply don't stand up to this and with Chaos marines out of the queston, Grey Hunters are perfect. Sternguard come a close second, but they're Elite, expensive and have ammunition that is outright unfluffy.

 

Until GW give us a Codex:30k or similar, this is how we have to roll. We have our custom rules for events, but when it we're standing up to players who insist on official-only, then this is the line we have to cross.