Can you win with 5 MC's?

[Captain Kratos]

I'm looking to build a competitive mono list and am wondering is taking 5 MC's (what attracted me to this codex) a case of putting too many eggs in one basket? So what do you guys think? Can you build a tournament competitive list like this?

[calypso2ts]

I think you need to specify the point value of the tournament to get more feedback on this. Can you win at 1000 points? Probably not...can you win at higher levels...maybe....

[Ntin]

Depends what kind of MC and what else you are planning on taking.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Where's Captain Malachi when you need him?

 

Yes, what you're referring to is known as "Daemonzilla" and is quite effective in tournament settings, relying on a few very hard, very powerful models to apply local pressure and deal a good chunk of damage to one part of the line. Such a list usually needs a Bloodthirster for anti-tank potential, and another Greater Daemon. The three good candidates are:

 

Another Bloodthirster

- Looks badass

- Boosts anti-tank of list up to something almost respectable

- Can fly

- Is scary

 

Keeper of Secrets

- Relatively cheap

- Minces Marines

- With Musk, becomes a pinball

- Is often regarded as one of the better Greater Daemons

 

Fateweaver

- Keeps your guys alive longer

- Is a decent firebase

- Can fly

- Draws TONS of firepower

 

After that, you get down to princes. This is up to personal preference really. Some people like relatively cheap and hitty Khornate princes. Some like the mini-firebase Tzeentch princes. Some again like the fast, cheap pinball Princes of Slaanesh. Some others like the expensive as heck, yet all out monstrous Nurgle princes. I for one like the Nurgle princes. Once you get past your five monstrous creatures, you'll need to fill out your core. At 1500-1750 points, depending on how expensive your big boys are, you should have at least 500 points left over for troops. Usually, with all the killiness in the big boys, you're looking for two characteristics: scoring effectiveness and fire support. Right away we can see that the fragile yet killy Bloodletters and Daemonettes won't be too useful: you need staying power now to win. Going further, we come to Nurglings. Okay, they're pretty survivable, definitely pretty cheap and come in nice compact units, so they must be great scorers, mustn't they? That's what you'd think! Since Nurglings are swarms, they cannot score. Coupled with the fact that they take double wounds from templates, they begin to look a little thin around the edges. You can kiss that option goodbye.

 

This will leave you with two options to fill the previous criteria: Plaguebearers and Horrors. Plaguebearers, while they cannot shoot, are the ultimate in survivability and pretty much guarantee that once they're on an objective, your enemy isn't going to get it: the best they can do usually is then to contest it. Horrors, on the other hand, have a built-in 4+ invulnerable save, meaning that they don't have to hog cover as much. They are also the only unit that can both score and shoot. So which unit should you pick? Well, to be honest, there isn't a definite answer. I prefer a mix of both.

 

A typical multi-god list for me will look like this at 1750 pts:

 

 

Fateweaver

Bloodthirster, Unholy Might, Blessing

7 Plaguebearers

7 Plaguebearers

5 Horrors, Bolt of Change

10 Horrors, Changeling

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Flight

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Flight

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Flight

 

Nurgle Princes go after nasty units, and are typically supported by Fateweaver. If these 4 guys can hit 2-3 units at a time, then I can rip armies apart piecemeal. The Bloodthirster is a dedicated anti-tanker, but also will sometimes just fly into the middle of the enemy line, waving a big "Shoot Me" sign. The two Plaguebearer units provide good objective coverage. The smaller Horrors provide a little ranged anti-tank support, and the bigger Horrors try and shred some light infantry before the main attacks start happening.

 

Whew! What a post!

 

 

 

EDIT: I see you're talking Mono god. Now this becomes much tougher to decide. I run a Tzeentchzilla list as well as a standard Daemonzilla, so I'm a little biased. But you'll have to decide this for yourself.

 

 

Khorne

Pros:

- Has the Bloodthirster, the most fearsome anti-tank creature

- Princes should be fairly cheap: if they break 200 points, you're doing something wrong.

- Even their core are super-killy, so it will be tough for your enemy to pick a good target.

- Red! Everything looks good in red.

 

Cons:

- Only the Bloodthirster has any type of speed whatsoever

- Bloodletters, their only scoring unit, are either sitting tight on an objective and doing a semi-decent job of surviving, or are running forward, dying in droves, but doing some serious killing

- No options for shooting

 

Slaanesh

Pros:

- 5 Pinball Daemons! You can move around like heck

- Option for Pavane allows you to control your enemy's movement as well

- Fiends of Slaanesh are one of the best units in the Daemon codex

 

Cons:

- Minimal, barely effective shooting

- Daemonettes are so fragile, they keel over and die if you so much as think about them

- Require a good chunk of luck to do much against vehicles

 

Nurgle

Pros:

- Survivable out the wazoo

- Nurgle Princes + Noxious Touch = the killiest prince loadout there is.

- Cheap, cheap, cheap greater daemons

 

Cons:

- Rely on Princes for killing power

- Slow

- Can't catch vehicles for anything

 

Tzeentch

Pros:

- Actually has decent shooting, and unlike regular Tzeentch doesn't give up too much in the way of combat

- Has Flamers, IMO the killiest unit in the Codex

- Has Fateweaver, an excellent force multiplier, especially for Daemonzilla

 

Cons:

- If troops get in combat, they're goners

- Lord of Change is pretty... meh.

- You're spending a lot of points on shooting, which can only get you so far.

[Captain Kratos]

Good point, sorry about that guys... I'm thinking of games that will be in the 1850 to 2000 point range.

 

 

Wow, EXCILLENT post Awesome! Talk about helpful! :)

 

I was thinking mono because fluff is important to me, and it seems more likely that in most cases the gods pursue their own ends. It seems to me anyway, that joining up (especially 3 or more) is a rare thing. That being said, you make a great case that a non-mono list would be much more competitive. I.e. Fateweaver backing up a Bloodthirster and 3 Nurgle DP's sounds utterly frightening.

 

If we didn't have to deal with vehicles my heart would be set on Slaanesh hands down. They just seem like they'd be so stinkin' fun to play. At this rate, for mono lists anyway, Khorne sounds like the way to go. 2 Thirsters + 3 winged DP's would bring a lot of speedy death. Thirsters handle the armor, the DP's the soft stuff and lighter vehicles. What they don't take down can be handled by bloodcrushers and bloodletters. Bloodletters being held back to hold an objective sounds almost sacrilegious to me, but oh well.

 

I might think about a Khorne/Nurgle team up though. Not traditional enemies and so, fluff wise, likely to work together. And that way Plaguebearers can be used to hold objectives without me feeling any guilt at all. I mean, how is it right to not let "bloodletters," let blood? :P

[minigun762]

I'm looking to build a competitive mono list and am wondering is taking 5 MC's (what attracted me to this codex) a case of putting too many eggs in one basket? So what do you guys think? Can you build a tournament competitive list like this?

 

Easily competitive, the key will be what MCs you take, how you build your Daemon Princes and what you use for support.

 

For 1500 points for example, here is what I'd do:

 

'Thirster, Blessing, Might = 275

Keeper, Might = 215

 

10 Horrors, Bolt = 180

10 'Letters = 160

10 'Letters = 160

 

Tzeentch Daemon Prince, Bolt = 140

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies = 185

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies = 185

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I'm looking to build a competitive mono list and am wondering is taking 5 MC's (what attracted me to this codex) a case of putting too many eggs in one basket? So what do you guys think? Can you build a tournament competitive list like this?

 

Easily competitive, the key will be what MCs you take, how you build your Daemon Princes and what you use for support.

 

For 1500 points for example, here is what I'd do:

 

'Thirster, Blessing, Might = 275

Keeper, Might = 215

 

10 Horrors, Bolt = 180

10 'Letters = 160

10 'Letters = 160

 

Tzeentch Daemon Prince, Bolt = 140

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies = 185

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies = 185

 

Those Nurgle Princes actually cost 215 points, putting you 60 points over.

[Captain Kratos]

Thanks minigun. After thinking about Awesome’s post I've been leaning towards a Khorne & Nurgle list. Mainly because Khorne kills best & Nurlge holds/contests objectives best, and in 5th ed, that's what it's all about.

 

Here's what I might think about for 1,500 points:

 

Bloodthirster: might = 270

Bloodthirster: might = 270

 

5 Plaguebearers = 75

5 Plaguebearers = 75

5 Plaguebearers = 75

6 Plaguebearers = 90

 

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

 

Total = 1500

 

The thirsters and princes come in the 1st wave (if things go right) and do the killing, while the plaguebearers come in through reserve rolls to hold/contest objectives. In an annihilate mission the plaguebeares can either gang up to help kill something or just hide, go to ground, and work to deny the enemy getting any killpoints for them.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

One thing you might consider is dropping the extra PB for Blessing on the Thirsters. Especially with Wolves and Njal kicking around, that 2+ Inv really helps.

[Ntin]

I am curious on this is supposed to be played now. For armies like Tyranids or Orks that can pool a large number of shots into a single unit then charge, how would this list break horde armies? It seems to be geared up on the hope your opponent is taking small units that each MC can break for the sweeping advance in close combat. On the flip side Space Marines with combat squads can leave your MC open to fire the next round if they slay all 5 Space Marines.

[minigun762]

Those Nurgle Princes actually cost 215 points, putting you 60 points over.

 

Yep you're right, my bad.

 

As for Blessing, its only 5 points, you should ALWAYS have it on your 'Thirsters.

 

I am curious on this is supposed to be played now

This is where you have to use your troop choices. Many people default to just using PlagueBearers because they can hold objectives extremely well, but I think the other three troops are more viable, since they all help thin out hordes which is the big problem of an MC list.

 

You can also use Wind of Chaos to help thin out hordies, but that gets expensive for 2-3 Daemon Princes.

 

I like 10 Horrors with Bolt, 180 points for a squad that can put out alot of firepower down range.

[Captain Kratos]

One thing you might consider is dropping the extra PB for Blessing on the Thirsters. Especially with Wolves and Njal kicking around, that 2+ Inv really helps.

Good point, That's not a bad idea at all.

 

 

I am curious on this is supposed to be played now. For armies like Tyranids or Orks that can pool a large number of shots into a single unit then charge, how would this list break horde armies? It seems to be geared up on the hope your opponent is taking small units that each MC can break for the sweeping advance in close combat. On the flip side Space Marines with combat squads can leave your MC open to fire the next round if they slay all 5 Space Marines.

Both good points. You don't see too many true horde armies being played in tournaments (mainly I think because the thought of painting that many models scares people :D ). The combat squad scenario is much more likely however, and you're right to bring it up.

 

I'll seek to explain how I would deal with each scenario...

 

Horde: Since they place first and can only squeez so many models into an one area, they're deployment will most likely be spread along the length of their deployment zone. Since I choose where I come in, I choose to land on one or the other of his extreme flanks. This will go far in both limiting what can get into close combat with me, and what can fire at me. If they deploy fast units on one of their flanks, I'll choose that one. This way I negate his speed and force his slower units on the other flank to cross the field more slowly than his fast units would have.

 

Also, when I come in I keep all my MC's together (watching for pie plates of course). I also don't spread out my MC's in assault and risk drawn out combats where the enemy can bring up more forces and drag me down. I throw 2 or 3 MC's into a unit at a time, engaging them as far away as possible from the rest of their army and forcing them to come further to me with their 6" reaction move. This means I'll only be looking to engage the two of his units maybe three on one of his far flanks on turn 2. This way I am much more likely to win the close combat by large margins forcing my opponent to make ridiculously low leadership tests.

 

Orks take leadership tests either on their leadership of 7 or on the number in thier mob (meaning that above 11 they're fearless). If I face 20 orks with a Thirster and 2 Nurgle DP’s, I'll have a total of 16 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on a 2+. If I drop them below 11 they’ll start having to take leadership checks and amazingly reduced levels (thanks to 5th ed). If I don’t then they’ll loose a ton more orks due to the fearless rule and their lousy 6+ armor save. I’ll then stay locked in close combat with them and obliterate them on their turn, hopefully freeing me to continue the rampage.

 

Not much can be done about Tyranids, as a smart Tyranid player will make it hard for me to disable his synapse advantage. If I win the combat though (which with 2-3 MC’s I should), he'll be taking even more casualties due to the fearless rule. I'd pretty much treat them as I did the Orks and seek to overwhelm combats and gain quick wins. That way I can continue to strike the army on my terms.

 

Combat Squads: This won't be a problem 1/3rd of the time as most people don't split their marines up during killpoint missions. The other 2/3rds of the time I'll have to do the same things as with Hordes. I’ll deploy together on one flank thus maximizing the amount of my points I’ll have facing off against my opponent at any given time. As before I’ll seek to limit lanes of fire as well, etc.

 

As to wiping all 5 out I don’t think that would happen too often. Differently than with a horde army I wouldn’t group up my MC’s in assault. Instead I’d send all 5 to 5 different combat squads (if possible). With each MC possessing only 6 and 5 attacks, it seems highly unlikely that I'd be able to take out all 5 marines in one blow (even with the Thirsters). I'm simply bound to roll at least some 1's and 2's. What I do hit is dead of course, but it's unlikely I'll be put in a situation where all 5 die. I'll simply win the combat, they'll fall back, I'll catch them (at least I have the advantage to catch them anyway), and then keep the combat going on into their turn due to the marines "they shall know no fear" rule.

 

In both cases the theory is weight of attack. Hit them with more then they can hit back with and win combats quickly. With all of my MC’s being winged, I'll be looking to As to their overwhelming advantage in total wounds, I’ll be hoping my quick victories, high toughness, good armor saves, multiple wounds, immunity to instant death, and invulnerable saves can see me through.

 

Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but that's what I'll be trying to do anyway. :)

 

 

I like 10 Horrors with Bolt, 180 points for a squad that can put out alot of firepower down range.

That's not a bad idea. I'll have to look into that. They could potentially come in and clear an objective with fire, where as the Plaguebearers will most likely come and merely contest it.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I am curious on this is supposed to be played now. For armies like Tyranids or Orks that can pool a large number of shots into a single unit then charge, how would this list break horde armies? It seems to be geared up on the hope your opponent is taking small units that each MC can break for the sweeping advance in close combat. On the flip side Space Marines with combat squads can leave your MC open to fire the next round if they slay all 5 Space Marines.

 

One of the nice things about MCs is force localization - the application of a good amount of pain to a relatively small area of the tabletop. Never ever just send one MC against a mob of 30 Orks - send 2 or 3. Yes, those Orks are then dealing with way more than their points cost worth, so you might consider it an inefficient use of points, but those couple of MCs - coupled with the mandatory round or so of Horror fire - can do serious damage to the unit.

[Ntin]

One of the nice things about MCs is force localization - the application of a good amount of pain to a relatively small area of the tabletop. Never ever just send one MC against a mob of 30 Orks - send 2 or 3. Yes, those Orks are then dealing with way more than their points cost worth, so you might consider it an inefficient use of points, but those couple of MCs - coupled with the mandatory round or so of Horror fire - can do serious damage to the unit.

I can see this working against non horde armies but that is just a lot of Ork fire to soak up in so few models. If the Horrors are able to shoot at the Boyz then the Boyz can shoot back them the following round. Losing 15, 6 point Boyz hurts less than 8, 17 point Pink Horrors.

 

When I say horde it is around 80 to 90 Orks in a 1000 point game. Against something like Orks it is never worth charging them unless you can break the mob in the first round of combat. Even if you can drop a 30 Boy squad to 15 the return attacks is the same as being charged by a Space Marine Assault Squad (albeit at S:3).

 

Would Skarbrand benefit this type of list to maximize the potential of each MC? He is unfortunately slow which is against the list’s paradigm though

[Captain Malachi]

Where's Captain Malachi when you need him?

You rang?

 

Would Skarbrand benefit this type of list to maximize the potential of each MC? He is unfortunately slow which is against the list’s paradigm though

Probably not, he'd boost your enemies more. If it was heavy on the Slaaneshi units you might get away with it though, but even then it's probably not worth it.

 

 

Bloodthirster: might = 270

Bloodthirster: might = 270

 

5 Plaguebearers = 75

5 Plaguebearers = 75

5 Plaguebearers = 75

6 Plaguebearers = 90

 

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

Deamon Prince: winged, hide, Nurgle, flies, touch = 215

 

Total = 1500

That is freakishly similar to my own list. And because of that I can tell you that against a true horde, you'll get destroyed, as has been said, they just have too many attacks. However, other armies are much easier to fight, each MC will do a lot of damage before dying (if they die), and the plaguebearers won't give up an objective any time soon. However, you may want to lose a squad or two of plaguebearers (maybe bumping the numbers on what's left a little) to fit in some combat troops, to aid with anti-horde.

 

Really depends on your local meta-game. I never have to play hordes so I don't worry about it, my only regular opponent who comes close is a guard player, and he's heavy on the tanks anyway. If there's a lot of horde armies in your local area, then perhaps taking cheaper princes might be better, and getting some more troops/elites.

 

Personally I run a keeper as my second HQ, since two bloodthirsters is pretty expensive. Just something to think about.

[minigun762]

You can also trim some points here and there to get more bodies.

Iron Hide on a Nurgle DP is quite useful but I don't think its mandatory when you have 5 MCs on the table. Dropping it will save you 90 points which is half a troop squad.

Taking Cap'n idea about swapping out the 2nd 'Thirster for a KoS is again worth considering, its 75 points cheaper if you don't upgrade it.

 

Between those 2 changes you have another Troop choice, or some Flamers if you wanted.

 

I really think that people go overboard with Plaguebearers. Other then holding objectives, they pretty much suck so don't spam them. 1-2 squads is all you need, then take some more aggressive troops to bulk up your anti-infantry.

[Captain Kratos]

I can see this working against non horde armies but that is just a lot of Ork fire to soak up in so few models.

Orks are my main army, and I've played them for over 8 years now. Honestly most ork players don't take firepower armies as they don't play into the ork stat line. With a BS of 2 I'd be much more worried about their close combat attacks and the sheer amount of Power Klaws they can bring to bear.

 

 

Personally I run a keeper as my second HQ, since two bloodthirsters is pretty expensive. Just something to think about.

Yah I know... it's just the thought of fielding TWO Bloodthirsters is so tempting to me. It would just be so cool to see the look on opponents faces when you drop two of them down on the table. :devil:

 

 

I really think that people go overboard with Plaguebearers. Other then holding objectives, they pretty much suck so don't spam them. 1-2 squads is all you need, then take some more aggressive troops to bulk up your anti-infantry.

Good point. Plaguebearers really are objective holders, and you're right, I could use some more killing ability. Flamers aren't a bad idea as they're really flexible and good against any infantry unit/army I might face.

[Captain Malachi]

I really think that people go overboard with Plaguebearers. Other then holding objectives, they pretty much suck so don't spam them. 1-2 squads is all you need, then take some more aggressive troops to bulk up your anti-infantry.

This is true. Don't get me wrong, I love the little bloated guys, but their lack of killyness is really starting to show in my win-loss ratio. Currently I use three squads of seven, but I'm probably going to drop two squads, bump up the numbers on the other and add some daemonettes or bloodletters to get a cheap objective taker. At higher points values I use some horrors as well, and they do quite well, but I don't know if their high cost can be justified at 1500 in a daemonzilla list.

[Captain Kratos]

At higher points values I use some horrors as well, and they do quite well, but I don't know if their high cost can be justified at 1500 in a daemonzilla list.

I think if they had a greater range they could be justified as they'd always be pumping out fire and potentially killing the enemy as they sat on an objective. Taking one unit of them might not be too bad though. Consider this set up for your troop choices...

 

* One small unit of Plaguebearers to hold the objective that's farthest away from enemy. The enemy can't shoot them out, they'll need to assault them out, & to do that they'll have to get past your 5 MC's and other troop choices!

 

* One unit of Horrors to be used in assault on an enemy held objective. They put out a withering amount of fire, thin out the enemy, and help the MC's clear the objective. Then, when the carnage is done, they move in and take the objective.

 

* One or two (depending on points) units of Deamonettes or Bloodletters. They can perform either of the above duties as the need arises.