Which is more competitive?

[Captain Kratos]

I was curious how everybody would rate the mono lists as compared to each other. Which god has the best army sort of thing...

 

Rank them 1 - 4, which god do you feel as the most competetive list, and then explain why.

[Ntin]

Not sure what the point of this thread is? You can gleam this information from the Codex but what the hell.

 

(MEQ = Marine Equivalent id est S and T 4)

 

Mono-god

 

1 - Nurgle: T5 and FNP makes models hard to kill with small arms fire, poison weapons let them attack any model regardless of toughness, and some of the best gift upgrades. Downside they can be slow and limited number of attacks.

 

2 - Khorne: MEQ models with power weapons, good elite choices, and strongest CC HQ. Less effective against now MEQ armies as they are geared for power armor popping not mass Orks or Guardsmen.

 

3 - Tzeentch: Strong anti vehicle, any list with any ranged attacks. Poor close combat skills, still out gunned by most armies.

 

4 - Slaanesh: High initiative and good elites and lots of attacks. Low S and T make them difficult to attack MEQ.

 

Bi-god combos

 

Nurgle and Slaanesh: Nurgle units can anchor in close combat long enough for Slaanesh units to approach and provide meat shields for fragile Daemonettes.

 

Khorne and Tzeentch

 

Combination of mid range shooting peppers units enough for Bloodletters to finish off most units.

[Captain Kratos]

Yes, but what I can't get from the codex is your guys opinion as to which mono list is the most competitive, which, according to my 1st post is what I was after... ;)

 

I'm surprised you ranked Nurgle #1. While incredibly resilient they are so slow. Having virtually no ranged attacks beyond 8" (aside from Ku'Gath), combined with a mediocre WS and so few attacks in close combat seems like an enormous weakness. Although their slowness can be mitigated somewhat by taking 3 winged DP's.

 

I think I'd go with Khorne 1, Slaanesh 2, Nurgle 3, & Tzeentch 4

 

 

Khorne #1 because they have decent durability with bloodthirster and bloodcrushers with tremendous killing power. Their decent strength along with the ability to upgrade unit champions with Fury of Khorne means that even troops can handle light vehicles while the Boodthirsters, DP's, and SG's.

 

Slaanesh #2 because of their speed, high initiative, AoA, large number of attacks, and rending make them lethal to all ground troops MEQ or otherwise. As with daemon armies in general they struggle with the more heavily armored vehicles (land raiders, etc.), and they are indeed fragile. However, due to their speed the opposition will only really ever get one turn of free shooting.

 

Nurgle #3 for all the reasons you listed. Unbelievably tough and resilient, they excel better than any other at holding objectives and stubbornly hanging around where other daemons would long returned to the warp. But, they are slow and weak in close combat.

 

Tzeentch # 4 mainly because they are highly overpriced for what they do IMO. They can shoot with decent range, but still will struggle where AV14 is involved, and seriously lack any real close combat punch.

[Ntin]

With Nurgle units you roll 2d6 and pick the highest for their movement and can run with the unit instead of shooting. Since they have no armor save and “Eternal Warrior” they always get “Feel No Pain”. The Epidemius special herald has a good synergy with the army. You do not need to slaughter in close combat, winning works just as well.

 

End of the day trying to hold an objective Nurgle is the best to sit there and get pelted by bolter fire. Any other daemon is going to take serious casualties from each volley of fire. 5th is moving away from meat grinder games, Daemons have a weakness taking and holding objectives due to a limit in their mobility. Being able to camp a spot with a Soul Grinder or a Nurgle unit is often the best bet.

 

WS is trivial against a WS 3, 4, 5, or 6 you still need 4+ to hit.

 

I personally play a mono-Slaanesh list but against Orks or Space Marines the number of attacks does not help, I rather have my S4 like I had in 3rd with A2. A unit of Daemonettes may get 40 or 50 attacks on a charge but rolling against a T4 group the 5 and 6 to wound is a problem at times. Against T3 armies they are great but with the changes to rendering and fleet in 5th I think Daemonettes are overpriced. AoA is certainly nice to deny people the bonus attack on charge though.

 

No matter what god you are playing I still think Soul Grinders are the way to go over a Daemon Prince, better survivability with an 11R they cannot be harmed by a lucky bolter to the back, phlegm is a good marine killing pie plate, and you can bring tongue to pop vehicles. Daemon Princes are too slow and too expensive for me when a Greater Daemon is around the same cost.

 

For most Daemon lists it is probably better just to ignore the AV 14 vehicles, a Soul Grinder with tongue or a charging Bloodthirster are the only good ways to dealing with one. Getting an expensive unit like those close to a Leman Russ or Land Raider is not the best idea.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Since they have no armor save and “Eternal Warrior” they always get “Feel No Pain”.

 

This, my friend, is simply not the truth. Any attack that ignores armor saves ignores feel no pain. Eternal warrior has ZERO relevance, as it has to do with Instant Death. Just because you don't HAVE an armor save means that power weapon ceases to be a power weapon: it would ignore your armor save even if you had one.

 

I would rate the lists:

 

1) Tzeentch. Yes, their basics are poor in close combat. But that is why you have Monstrous Creatures! Core troops cannot be used as mainline soldiers 24/7. Horrors provide shooting support, so don't expect anything more from them. But a Daemon Prince or Lord of Change still kicks a fair amount of butt in close combat. Plus, Tzeentch has Fateweaver. Ka-ching. Instant survivability boost. Tzeentch has Flamers. Ka-ching. HUGE killiness boost. Tzeentch has actual shooting! They can actually take things apart that you don't want to deal with BEFORE you have to deal with them!

 

2) Khorne. They've got 'Thirsters, so they can actually hurt vehicles. They've got the most killy troops and the toughest elites. But they're slow. Faster than Nurgle, which is what put them where they are, but still slow.

 

3) Slaanesh. What really hurts these guys is their fragility. Nothing in the army can really take much of a hit. But the nice thing about Slaanesh is they know how to attack! Fast and decently killy, especially Fiends, they can do a lot of damage quickly. But I've had far too many encounters with rapid fire bolters for me to like them more than I do.

 

4) Nurgle. Yes, they can take a punch. So? That doesn't mean anything if you can't hurt the other guy! There are a grand total of two units that can rack up kills in a mono-Nurgle army: Princes and GUOs. GUOs are VERY meh. But, IATA, there's Epidemius! There's the Tally! Well, true, there is that, but keep in mind you have to kill things to get the Tally started, and to do that you need Princes. Shoot the Princes, and you stamp out the army's spark. And they are the slowest Daemon list out there. Snails move faster than Nurgle.

[Ntin]

This, my friend, is simply not the truth. Any attack that ignores armor saves ignores feel no pain. Eternal warrior has ZERO relevance, as it has to do with Instant Death. Just because you don't HAVE an armor save means that power weapon ceases to be a power weapon: it would ignore your armor save even if you had one.

 

Rule as intended I completely 100% agree with you, rule as worded it is not so much the case so I would like to counter with my own hypothesis.

 

There are two statements that allow the “Feel No Pain” U.S.R. to be ignored.

 

The first statement –

 

Feel No Pain page 75 (Little Rule Book)

“This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death…”

 

Where the “Eternal Warrior” U.S.R. states “the model is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.” It is impossible to inflict instant death on any model in Codex: Chaos Daemons because of the “Invulnerable!” special rule. The Soul Grinder also gets the “Invulnerable!” special rule which I am kind of confused about.

 

The second statement -

 

Feel No Pain page 75 (Little Rule Book)

“Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against can be taken ….”.

 

The first part of the sentence states “AP1 and AP2 weapons” but it is impossible for a weapon to be both AP1 and AP2 as the lowest AP value takes precedence. For rule as written that is thrown out.

 

The second part of the sentence lists several attacks that will ignore “Feel No Pain” U.S.R. all of which involve the attack using power weapon rule.

 

Zero-Level Characteristics page 7 (Little Rule Book)

“A warrior with an Armour Saving Throw of ‘-‘ has no armor save at all.”

 

Power weapons page 42 (Little Rule Book)

“Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves”

 

To be disallowed an armour save the model in question would then have to allowed at some point, have to be able to make an armour save under normal circumstances (id est a non power weapon attack). You cannot negate something that did not exist in the first place. I cannot take candy from a child if the child did not have any candy, for example.

 

A side note by the accepted meaning of “Feel No Pain” where it states “any other wound against which no armour save can be taken” any unit without an armour save can never attempt the roll in the first place.

 

In either case the rule is very poorly worded which leaves it open to abuse, which is the same with a number of rules in the game. Rule as written any unit with “Feel No Pain” U.S.R. in Codex: Chaos Daemon can almost always make the roll the exceptions include Strength ‘D’ or Grey Knight Force Weapon.

[calypso2ts]

The reason the rule is "vague" is because it is written so most people can understand it at first glance. What you are doing to it would require it to be written like a legal document, and therefore completely undecipherable to most of the public as well as brutally boring to read.

 

First of all read the entire paragraph, you cannot pick and choose from a portion of a sentence of it.

 

BRB pg 75

"This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior)."

 

Do I need to even explain how your argument is wrong by the exact RAW?

 

 

Feel No Pain page 75 (Little Rule Book)

“Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against can be taken ….”

 

Throw this out? Okay you can do that or you can throw out your reading of it, which implies a weapon has AP 1 and AP 2, and read it as it says weapons and therefore it means AP 1 weapons and AP 2 weapons. Since simply throwing out a paragraph because it can be interpreted a way that 'does not make sense' is egregiously worse than taking the more obvious interpretation.

 

 

For your second point, if you want to argue that the model has no armor save, and therefore there are no weapons which ignore it, then this implies that all weapons ignore FNP. Why? read the rule

 

"...any wound against no armor save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons on a roll of a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)"

 

By your argument, FNP cannot be taken against weapons that no armor save can be taken, and the Plaguebearers have no armor save and therefore cannot take an armor save against anything, including a Laspistol. Since this would be FNP would essentially never be used, this cannot possibly be the correct interpretation.

 

Not to mention the BRB specifically lists those weapons FNP cannot be taken against.

 

If someone tried to pull this argument on me, I would be inclined to prove my point empirically by handing them $30 and using my DCCW on their PB's.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

There are two statements that allow the “Feel No Pain” U.S.R. to be ignored.

Sorry Ntin, but you do have some significant interpretation issues with your conclusions. Many Nurgle units are going to benefit from Eternal Warrior & FNP in ways many other can’t. Yet you’ve taken it well beyond that. I’m sure you would find few opponents who will agree with you.

 

Going back to the original topic; the Meta-game continues to evolve competitively and unfortunately, Daemons are getting the short end of the deal. I’ve done will competitively with my mixed-god army but it’s taken me a whole ton of games to come to what I’m playing with currently.

 

#1 Mixed Khorne, Slaneesh Nurgle is still my first choice.

These list just spams the best of what the codex has to offer: Cheap troops + hard hitting troops + one of the best MC’s in the game, etc.

 

#2 Mono-Nurlge

The list works when you leverage the Tallyman + all you can to kill troops quickly leaving most of your own troops in reserve. Add Ku’gath’s pie plates + 3 Nurgle DP’s + Breath of Chaos and rack up as many kills as you can early in the game. By the time the PB’s hit the table, their more resilient and can actually do some killing of their own.

 

#3 Mono-Khorne

Just the use of overwhelming, brute force. It’s not an elegant army but can do a lot of heavy lifting.

 

#4 Mono-Slaneesh and/or Mono-Tzeentch

The Slaneeshi army can at least mount up the numbers but the Tzeentch units are far far too expensive to go unsupported.

 

I see that there are many diverse answers in this thread. It might be interesting to hear more analysis around the #1 & #2 choices for each.

 

-OMG

[Corpse.]

I read on page 75 the entire Feel No Pain rule. The whole paragraph. I found something that refutes everything you said in one way or another Ntin.

 

1: This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death (even if the model is an eternal warrior, third part into the "()'s" ).

2: Neither can it be used against AP1, AP2 etc, power weapons. Note one part though it says "And"... "And"... "And" in a very specific part saying "And any weapon that allows no armor saves".

 

 

Sorry.

 

 

As to the topic though, mono god I say for a general list for all things in the entire game to be faced from the entire list of hundreds army list types (yes there are THAT many) I have to say Tzeentch has the best bet.

 

-The list includes tons of skimmer armies is why I say that.

 

Secondly the roughest and most tactical is slaanesh for a close third place with khorne and last place for nurgle. No matter what, slow pace, deep strike and low damage output makes me believe nurgle is last for daemons, as sad as that makes me.

[Ntin]

I see that there are many diverse answers in this thread. It might be interesting to hear more analysis around the #1 & #2 choices for each.

 

-OMG

I guess for a mono-god list it can vary on what you are going to be fighting. I am making the assumption of Space Marine Chapter X which I feel Slaanesh and Tzeentch units would struggle against. If this was against any T3 army (Tyranids, Eldar, et cetra) then I would change my ordering. A mixed list would be less situational against your opponent as there are units that compliment one another within the codex.

 

The reason the rule is "vague" is because it is written so most people can understand it at first glance. What you are doing to it would require it to be written like a legal document, and therefore completely undecipherable to most of the public as well as brutally boring to read.

“If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a die. On a 1, 2, or 3, the wound is inflicted as normal. On a 4, 5, or 6, the wound is instead ignored. This ability cannot be used if the wound would have caused instant death, even if the model has the eternal warrior special rule. It also cannot be used if the wound was caused by an AP1 or AP2 weapon, or a close combat attack that is treated like a power weapon.”

 

What I did was rewrote the same rule in clear and concise manner without changing the original meaning. I am not trying to inject legal-ese into the rulebook but the way Gamesworkshop products are written is in a style that both a mix of archaic and colloquial English which leads to these rule issues.

 

Do I need to even explain how your argument is wrong by the exact RAW?

I did miss that extra line it invalidates part of my argument but not all of it.

 

Throw this out? Okay you can do that or you can throw out your reading of it, which implies a weapon has AP 1 and AP 2, and read it as it says weapons and therefore it means AP 1 weapons and AP 2 weapons. Since simply throwing out a paragraph because it can be interpreted a way that 'does not make sense' is egregiously worse than taking the more obvious interpretation.

 

You are missing a subtle difference between a disjunction and a conjunction. If the statement in question was written as “from AP1 or AP2 weapons” it would be a perfectly legitimate rule. However in the context of a Warhammer 40,000 weapon it is impossible for such a weapon to have both AP values at the same time. When such an incident does occur the precedent is that the lower value which becomes the new AP value, even if it is temporary. For example take a weapon with the “sniper” rule. With this weapon a roll of 6 when wounding counts as a rendering attack. The default sniper rifle AP value of 6 is replaced with 2 for that wound. It does not retain both an AP of 6 and an AP of 2. So for the conjunction “AP1 and AP2 weapons” to be true the weapon would need to have both values. This leaves us with a contradiction which means the statement can never be true, so I can throw it out of my argument.

 

By your argument, FNP cannot be taken against weapons that no armor save can be taken, and the Plaguebearers have no armor save and therefore cannot take an armor save against anything, including a Laspistol. Since this would be FNP would essentially never be used, this cannot possibly be the correct interpretation.

 

Not to mention the BRB specifically lists those weapons FNP cannot be taken against.

In how the rule is currently interpreted I agree with you on that a model without an armor save could never benefit from the “Feel No Pain” U.S.R.

 

You are however missing my point about a power weapon can only negate armor if the model had an armor save to begin with. What I am trying to say by the virtue of not having an armor save allows models like a Plaguebearer more opportunities to use the “Feel No Pain” U.S.R.

 

To concede my first point, I would like to rephrase my argument to this. A model without an armor save that suffers a wound that did not cause instant death can attempt its “Feel No Pain” special rule. Barring outliers such as S:D or Grey Knight force weapons.

 

If someone tried to pull this argument on me, I would be inclined to prove my point empirically by handing them $30 and using my DCCW on their PB's.

Empirical experiment of a mortally wounded super human being kept alive by a robot suit who is punching a trans-dimensional creature that is not bound by the normal rules of time, space, and matter both of whom are represented on the 28mm scale in soft plastic? I will take my $30.

 

I read on page 75 the entire Feel No Pain rule. The whole paragraph. I found something that refutes everything you said in one way or another Ntin.

 

1: This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death (even if the model is an eternal warrior, third part into the "()'s" ).

2: Neither can it be used against AP1, AP2 etc, power weapons. Note one part though it says "And"... "And"... "And" in a very specific part saying "And any weapon that allows no armor saves".

@1. Yes calypso2ts pointed that out.

 

@2. The second statement declares the following.

 

Statements:

A = “from AP1 and AP2 weapons”

B = “power weapons”

C= “any other wound against which no armour save can be taken (like from … yatta yata)”

 

Which then reads as the following “Neither can it be used against wounds from A, B, and C.”.

 

How this sentence is written the commas and the last “and” are used to state a list of things. This is not the same as a series of conjunctions where something like “I am going to put together my models and prime them and paint them” is a series of conjunctions. Statement A however intended or not is a conjunction.

 

The rule book states models with an armor save of ‘-‘ possess no armor save. For either statement B or C to come into effect the wound would have to deny the chance to make an armor save. A Plaguebearer cannot be denied the chance to make an armor save because it does not have an armor save in the first place. Therefore against a model like a Plaguebearer statement A is a contradiction where statements B and C cannot occur because the model lacks an armor save. The only way to deny a Plaguebearer its “Feel No Pain” special rule is a S10 attack, force weapon, or S:D.

[Captain Idaho]

Dude you are wrong. I have never heard of any player who will agree with you. It is quite clear that it states AP1 and AP2 weapons, not weapons that are both as otherwise it would be written AP1 and 2 weapons. It is also clear Eternal Warrior doesn't overwrite the rule as it says so.

 

You said yourself you cannot have both an AP1 and an AP2 weapon in 40K, therefore this rule cannot be referring to it as it doesn't exist.

 

I can't imagine you would have many opponents to play against if you try and pull this trick on people fella. Go ahead and argue all you want (rather than just admitting you are wrong!) but the truth of the matter is no-one will play you like that, so you can keep to that argument as much as you like because it won't change peoples mind. Not trying to be confrontational bud, just tell you the straight truth :tu: .

 

Back on topic, I been toying with taking a Slaanesh themed Daemon list, with 3 12x Daemonettes squads, 2 units of Fiends, 3 Daemon Princes (1 Winged and decked out for Combat and the other 2 walking Daemonic Gaze Princes for firepower purposes (second wave and relatively defensive, as they support objective taking Daemons). Oh, of course, a Keeper of Secrets! Though I will be honest I was thinking of taking a couple of Heralds with Daemonic Gaze to boost firepower and because they are not walking targets!

[minigun762]

I was curious how everybody would rate the mono lists as compared to each other. Which god has the best army sort of thing...

 

Rank them 1 - 4, which god do you feel as the most competetive list, and then explain why.

 

#1 = Khorne, simple and effective. Anti-tank can be taken care of with a pair of Bloodthirsters and 3 Winged Daemon Princes (or Soulgrinders if that counts). Everything else in a Khorne list kills infantry just fine.

 

#2 = Tzeentch, raw shooting power. Dual Chariot Heralds and Bolts in your Horror squads will provide most of your anti-tank firepower and Flamers and Horrors will dakka down troops. Alot of people make shooting Daemon Princes but I think they are better of going with a counter assaulter build because you lack any dedicated assault units in this list.

 

#3 = Slaanesh, speed and rending. Either Chariot Heralds or KoS work great as super speedy killing machines backed up by alot of Fiends. Daemonettes are easy to kill but they are fast enough that they should get into HtH quick and do some good damage. Against other assault units, use them as backup for Heralds/KoS or Fiends. I think you should leave Pavane alone, its not that impressive in my mind. If you take KoS, I would definately consider Soulgrinders to add some range to the army and split up the anti-tank weapons. If you take Heralds, I would probably leave the Heavy section alone and just spam Fiends, Heralds and Daemonettes maybe supported by Seekers.

 

#4 = Nurgle, one trick pony. If you build a mono-Nurgle list, it has to be a Tallylist to be competitive. This means that a smart opponent will know exactly what you're going to do and do their best to deny those early kills so that the Tally never gets up high or they will kill your Nurglings/Beasts so they can't benefit from the Tally.

[Captain Kratos]

(or Soulgrinders if that counts).

Sure. I see Soulgrinders as being whatever you want them to be, with the paint/modeling job denoting which god they serve (if any). In this case they could easily be painted/modeled up to fit whatever mono-list you'd like.

 

It's interesting to see that Khorne is in everyone’s top 2, but after that it varies wildly. With that, it would seem that Khorne is the overall winner. It's also interesting as to why. With daemons struggling with heavy amour, our best AV14 killing unit is hands down the Bloodthirster. For this reason alone I see them as always having a top 1st or 2nd spot.

 

After that everyone's all over the board.

 

I am making the assumption of Space Marine Chapter X which I feel Slaanesh and Tzeentch units would struggle against. If this was against any T3 army (Tyranids, Eldar, et cetra) then I would change my ordering.

Yes, I should have clarified this. I guess I'd say, what mono-list is competitive against all comers and is geared for tournament play (which I guess to be fair to you Ntin, would definitely need to be able to deal with MEQ armies).

 

 

Ok, so as I went through and looked at how each of us have ranked the mono-lists, I gave 4pts to each 1st place vote a mono-list recieved, 3pts for a second place vote, 2 for a 3rd, and 1 for last place. After doing so, our combined view of mono-lists looks like this:

 

1st place (so far) is Khorne with 17 points

 

Tied for 2nd are Nurgle (12) & Tzeentch (12)

 

and

 

in last place is Slaanesh with 10 points

 

 

I guess I struggle with Tzeentch being so high because of pricing. Everyone talks about Bolts of Tzeentch being their tank stoppers, but in 5th ed they would need 2 six's to be rolled in a row to kill a land raider. And that's just too unlikely for my tastes. With 5th ed's improving of the Land Raiders performance I'm at least seeing one of them in every marine list I face. Sure you can say ignore it, but any marine/chaos player worth their salt will play it in such a way as to make it so you can't ignore it. =)

 

AV13 and 14 (mainly AV14) is really what we're talking about here and how each mono-list handles them. Every mono-list can deal with the squishy models just fine IMO (even slow Nurgle can reek havoc on squishy things with Epidemus and 3 winged DP's, etc). That being said... lets take a look at how each army stacks up against heavily armored vehicles.

 

Khorne: We all agree here... Thirsters are fast, and with might and FC slice through AV14 like a steak knife through jello.

 

Slaanesh: Owner of another fast greater daemon that's capable of not only catching but dealing with high AV vehicles. While not nearly as competent in this department as the Bloodthirster, having 7 attacks on the charge nearly assures at least one hit (even if the vehicle moves 7 -12" or more). Giving the KoS might will give her a starting strength of 7 and with 2D6 AP a chance at even a land raider. The average roll of 7 will glance it, and with a little luck, get you a roll that will slice right through it.

 

Tzeentch: The masters of ranged warfare in the daemon list. While Khorne and Slaanesh have to rely on a few models to get the job done the Tzeentch mono-list can field tank killing ability across the entire FOC. BoT and the warp jaw are really the only way Tzeentch's daemons can get the job done. Tzeentch's daemons simply don't posses (no pun intended) the starting strength to get the job done against AV14. Being able to deepstrike means they can achieve side and rear shots on all but the Land Raider. Here, I feel they fall short, shorter than Khorne and Slaanesh. While Khorne or Slaanesh lists can get the job done with one model (all be it an expensive one), Tzeentch will have to rely on weight of fire to get the job done. They'll have to turn more than a few BoT units towards the Land Raider to kill it. As I said earlier, hoping to roll two 6's in a row is only a faint hope at best. Warp Jaws are just plain deadly and screamers are incredibly fast, but they ever only get one attack each. However, like a greater daemon, when they do hit... boom! I believe this is the best way Tzeentch has to kill heavy armor, but this is a very specialized unit. While Thirsters and KoS are good at killing whatever they're called upon to kill. Screamers on the other hand are a one trick pony. How many do you take? What if your opponent only takes light vehicles that you could have simply used BoT's on? What if they take no vehicles at all? Etc.

 

Nurgle: The undisputed worst of the worst where heavy armor is concerned. A mono-list of Nurgle can't hope to cope with one AV14 vehicle, much less multiple AV14 threats.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

You can't really say that Bolt is a bad way to stop vehicles... relatively, it's actually one of the best. Nothing in our list WON'T find it nigh-on impossible to take down Land Raiders, as you'll probably be hitting them on 6s in close combat. Nurgle won't ever - EVER - scratch a Land Raider. Slaanesh will find it very hard to. Khorne actually has a somewhat decent chance with the Thirster, but even so, they're expensive and everyone knows what they do to vehicles. Result? Fire magnet. Bolt isn't really all that much more effective than any of these others at anti-Raider, but it's quite a bit safer and more flexible.

 

If all else fails, just Flamer them to death.

[Captain Kratos]

You can't really say that Bolt is a bad way to stop vehicles...

That's not what I said. BoT is very effective against AV13 and below, but then so are Thirsters and KoS's.

 

 

Nothing in our list WON'T find it nigh-on impossible to take down Land Raiders, as you'll probably be hitting them on 6s in close combat.

A Thirster with unholy might, gets 6 strength 9 attacks on the charge. Statistically anyway, you should get at least one 6. After that you only need to achieve a combined 2D6 AP roll of 6 to penetrate. MUCH more statistically acceptable than BoT IMO. Is it still difficult to get a destroyed result? Yes, you'll then need to roll a 5 or 6, but it's still statistically better than BoT.

 

 

Khorne actually has a somewhat decent chance with the Thirster, but even so, they're expensive

No more expensive than the Land Raider they're trying to kill. That's a fair trade. How many BoT would you be required to fire just to statistically match the same chance a Thirster does to get the job done?

 

Let's see. Theoretically you'd need 6 BoT's to hit so that you can roll the 6 you'll need to get a glance. Just stopping there, and not even bothering to factor in how many BoT's you need to fire to make sure that 6 of them hit thier mark or the fact that a BoT will destroy only on a 6 where as the Thirster and KoS will get the job done on 5 & 6's, we can see you'll need to fire a lot of BoT's at a Land Raider to get the job done. Honestly, you'd probably have to fire every BoT in your army at the Land Raider just to have the same chance as a Thirster. That's considerably more expensive than the Thirster rout.

 

What would you rather have? A 270 point Thirster trying to take out 260+ Land Raider, or your entire 1,500 army trying to take out 260+ Land Raider?

 

This is precisely why I rank both mono-Khorne & mono-Slaanesh ahead of mono-Tzeetch.

 

Even a Keeper of Secrets with might will statistically glance a Land Raider every time, and requires only the slightest bit of luck to manage what the Thirster can. 7 attacks on the charge = at least one hit statistically (assuming you need 6's to hit). Add that to an average 2D6 roll of 7, and it's a glance every time. Honestly, it's significantly easier (statistically) to roll an 8 or more on 2D6 than it is to roll two 6's back to back for a BoT.

 

 

Edit: Wanted to add the following question...

If all else fails, just Flamer them to death.

How would that work against a Land Raider? Is there something I'm missing about Breath of Chaos? If so tell me, cause that'd be awesome if it could destroy Land Raiders! :lol:

[Ntin]

Edit: Wanted to add the following question...

If all else fails, just Flamer them to death.

How would that work against a Land Raider? Is there something I'm missing about Breath of Chaos? If so tell me, cause that'd be awesome if it could destroy Land Raiders! :lol:

 

Enough glances will do the trick, it is the Ork Loota principle. Odds are though Screams will get the job done faster.

[Captain Kratos]

Enough glances will do the trick, it is the Ork Loota principle. Odds are though Screams will get the job done faster.

Ok, that's what I thought. I just didn't want to jump to any conclusions there. Man, I don't even want to think about how many BoC attacks it would take to immobilize, blow off all the weapons, and then roll a further damaged result to destroy a Land Raider! :D

[Ntin]

Well it is a 2/9 chance to both glance and do something detrimental to a Land Raider (id est weapon destroyed or immobilize). On the base model land raider you would need to have a combination of weapon destroyed or immobilized 5 times to destroy it. If the Land raider has a Hunter Killer, Storm Bolter, and/or Multi-Melta it could take a very long time. Realistically a full group of Flamers of Tzeentch could extra crispy a Land Raider in one go but that is 420 points of Flamers of Tzeentch to down 250 points of Land Raider.

 

Bolt of Tzeentch on the other hand has the benefit of AP 1 so it can destroy on a glance. Screamers of Tzeentch are still the best for AV 14 duty though on average Warp Jaw is going to get a strength 15 penetration hit.

[Captain Kratos]

Screamers are hands down the best Tzeentch unit for tackling AV14 vehicles. Sure they only get one attack each, but there's another way to look at this.

 

We've been going on the assumption that the vehicles we'll be trying to hit will be going cruising speed. If they're doing that, they're not firing on your daemons. In a way, that's almost as good as blowing the weapons off. Either way we're in good shape. Either they'll be moving at combat speed and we'll hit on 4+, or they'll be moving at cruising speed and not shooting.

[Excess Nerd]

I run a Slaanesh Tzeentch list and I love how everyone thinks of our MCs as the best things to hit AV 14 but if you are swinging at the "biggest" AV 14 the Monolith of Crons the only thing in the army that is really good IMO is a Soulgrinder w/ tongue b/c then you have STR 10 AP 1 range attack and the 2 dread attacks.

[Captain Kratos]

Crons are one army a deamonzilla list would litterally obliterate! Ignore the monolith. Send an MC at every warrior unit he has, and with the help of 5th ed assault rules, wipe out each unit he has after one round of combat to achieve an easy phase out victory.

[Captain Malachi]

Agreed, and it's true whether you're playing daemonzilla or not. We're so good at killing infantry that I can think of very few situations where I'd actually care if the monolith lived or died. Obviously I'd prefer it dead so that it stops killing my little gribblies, but given the choice between attacking a unit of warriors or the monolith, I'm going to attack the warriors every time.

 

Of course, I'm the closest thing to a necron player in my gaming group right now anyway so it doesn't come up very often (by closest, I mean I own the codex and a single model).

 

Edit- Oh right, my 1-4:

1) Khorne. He has enough killing power and the bloodthirster is pretty much essential to my playing style.

2) Nurgle. You only have to kill ten models with your princes to drastically increase the effectiveness of the rest of your army.

3) Tzeentch. All that shooting is just lovely, but he's not as killy as Khorne or as survivable as Nurgle.

4) Slaanesh. Squishy, less killy than Khorne, little or no shooting, Slaanesh doesn't rank too highly in my books. Sure, pavane is nice, but it's not that great.

 

Of course, at the end of the day, a balanced list with units from all four is going to far stronger than any mono list.

[DuskRaider]

I can't really give you hands on for Slaanesh or Tzeentch, but I look at it this way:

 

#1 Khorne- A Mono-Khorne list, while having troops fragile to range, are simply unstoppable in CC. Add to that the ability to take 5 flying MCs and Bloodcrushers and you've got a party. Truthfully, Flesh Hounds aren't even all that bad if you use them right, ie running them from cover to cover and pouncing on an enemy unit holding an objective or tying up a Character until a Bloodthirster can swoop down and eat them for breakfast. I'd probably run at least one Soul Grinder in a Mono-Khorne list though, as the Khorne Daemon Princes, while quite spartan, are still expensive.

 

#2 Nurgle- Mono Nurgle can actually be quite fearsome if played correctly. It takes a lot more thinking and planning to pull off a successful Nurgle list then any other god, but I put him at 2 for a couple reasons. The best Daemon Prince configuration, and the Tally. As OMG has pointed out, if you throw Epidemius and your MCs down early to rack up kills, your PBs coming in later will hit that much harder. This list is pure mayhem against a swarm army, where the Tally has the potential to max out by round two (I've done it :( ). Quite simply Aura of Decay, Breath of Chaos, the Tally, and 4 MCs will make your opponent turn green (praise Nurgle!).

 

#3 Slaanesh- Very fast units + high initiative = awesome. I'd actually have this list tied for 2 simply because of their high initiative and hit and run ability you can give some units. Taking two KoS means you'll ALWAYS strike first, and giving them Transfixing Gaze can further hamstring your opponent (especially with ICs). Daemonettes can hit pretty hard with Fleet, Rending, and a high initiative. The best part is they come equipped with offensive and defensive grenades. Simply the best Fast Attack choice and almost tying Bloodcrushers for best Elite choice, you have plenty of options to get in your opponent's face very quickly and effectively cripple them. Tanks will pose a problem, but even then you still have your MCs.

 

#4 Tzeentch- I'm not much impressed by Tzeentch daemons. Maybe it's my bias for Nurgle, or maybe because I like the sure bet when it comes to HtH, but simply put I don't like a lot of their options. Yes, Fateweaver can make an army invincible, but if he gets hit, you have a chance he runs away. Not very reliable, IMO. Flamers are probably my favorite choice, with their plethora of Breath of Chaos. Then again, this unit will probably become a target for any opponent who knows his Daemonology. A mono-Tzeentch army becomes very expensive very quickly, and you'll really be missing all those extra models you could field with another God's list.

 

Just my two kraks

[Excess Nerd]

I realized i never really answered the point of the thread so here it is.

#1:Nurgle b/c as far as what i have heard from different people PB no one will argue are the best objective sitters and the codex gives a free tactic to play with that is fairly successful with Tally and DPs

 

#2:Khorne and that is only b/c less squishy w/ power weapons beats Fleet.

 

#3:Slaanesh but it hurt me to put it after Khorne and if i am allowed to call it a tie i wish for my vote to reflect that

 

#4:Tzeentch may get shooting but it isn't a good gun line considering ppl will charge you in a turn or two with u shooting from 18" and 4++ in CC does save enough i know from experience

[Captain Kratos]

Ok, so adding in the latest votes, things now look like this...

 

1st place: Khorne (28pts)

 

2nd place: Nurgle (22pts)

 

3rd place: Tzeentch (16pts)

 

4th place: Slaanesh (15pts)

 

*Each 1st place vote gets 4pts, 3pts for second, 2 for a 3rd, and 1 for a last place vote

 

 

Khorne continues to be the strong mono-list winner. There's really nothing you can say bad about them except that we wish they were a little faster and that their troops were a little tougher. You can’t have it all however, otherwise everyone would take them. ;)

 

Nurgle's a strong second. However, if Epidemius were out of the picture this list might just drop strait to 4th place. A lot rides on the bloated guy riding a palanquin! Well… the whole armies bloated, but you know what I mean. ;) Protect him well, or loose the game.

 

Tzeentch coming in at 3rd is still a mystery to me, but majority rules! Lots of medium ranged shooty at a high cost, but then again they posses LOTS of MEQ killing high AP weapons, and using BoM to contest an objective at the end of a game can be a real nasty surprise to your foe!

 

Slaanesh comes in last by one point. I see them as higher than this, but again, majority rules. I wonder if everyone knows how to protect them properly. Playing Slaanesh like you play Khorne will lose you games every time. They require much more finesse to use. I ought to know, I play mounted orks. Your opponent will often only get one turn to shoot you, but with armor 10 vehicles and a 6+ armor save orks require a bit of finesse too. You can’t just drive them up like you can marines in a land raider. However, just because they need finesse to use, makes them no less affective! :blink: