Which is more competitive?

[Ntin]

If Daemonettes were changed back to strength four like they were in the third edition codices, players would view them more favorably. Relying on a five or six to wound the majority of enemies is somewhat frustrating. Especially when making forty of fifty attacks and less than a dozen cause a wound. Even in the randomness of the Codex: Chaos Daemons strength three can viewed as too much of an x factor (or finesse as you put it Captain Kratos) to keep a mono Slaanesh labeled as competitive. However if your local gaming scene is more evenly distributed in their armies you could get more mileage out of your mono Slaanesh list but with Codex: Space Wolves as the flavor of the month toughness four will have a bit of a resurgence till Codex: Tyranids.

[Captain Kratos]

Don't get me wrong... who wouldn't prefer ST4 to ST3. However...

 

1.) Slaanesh has lots of other units to do whatever job needs doing. It's not like you're taking only Daemonettes.

And

2.) I still see daemonettes as being underrated by people. The rending rule combined with a bucket load of dice still gives a nasty sting. If you're having to roll 5's and 6's and your guys are only base 1 attack then I can understand you, but base 3 attacks? ...that's a whole other story. The higher volume of attacks means more 5's and highly coveted 6's which not only deal with T4 Space wolves but their 3+ or 2+ armor save as well.

 

 

Maybe its because I play orks that I see these ladies for what they can be if used properly. Orks and Daemonettes are similar in many ways. Using slugga boyz for a comparison we see...

 

*Both throw bucket full’s of dice

*Both are dedicated close combat troops

*Both require getting the charge to make the most of their abilities

*Both die VERY easily if you're not cautious

*Both are ST 3 (granted orks have FC for one turn)

*Both have significant CC advantages: Orks have the Hidden PK & Daemonettes have Rending

*Both are fast: Orks have a one turn fleet move via the "Waaagh" special rule & Daemonettes always have it

*Both can hurt vehicles

*They're both fearless (although orks will loose this when they dip below 11 models)

 

 

What Orks have over Daemonettes:

*Higher ST4 vs 3 for 1st round of combat

*Cheaper (over half the cost!) of Daemonettes

*I would list can shoot weapons, but their BS is so horrible this hardly ever comes into play for me

*Are T4 verses T3

 

 

What Daemonettes have over Orks:

*Have fleet all the time

*Rending + High volume of attacks will deny way more armor saves than the 4 attacks from the PK armed Nob will

*Have a 5+ invulnerable save verses the orks 6+ armor save (I RARELY EVER get to take a save from shooting attacks with my orks, Daemonettes will almost always get to take theirs!)

*Come equipped with both offensive and defensive grenades standard

*Will almost always attack first with AoA and I6, while most of the time orks will attack last (even with FC they only get up to I3 and that's just for one turn)

 

 

 

I've been playing orks for nearly 10 years and in that time I've rarely lost a game either in tournament play or within my gaming club. I run a take all comers mounted list using boys mounted in trucks screened by buggies, and I don't field one cheesy nob unit. Slaanesh is fast, and speed can be a powerful weapon if you know how to use it. Running Daeomonettes out in the open will get them killed, yes, but learning to play towards their strengths can make Slaanesh as a whole a force to be reckoned with.

 

 

 

Edit: had to do post in two parts as the Mrs. needed me

[Ntin]

I think you are focusing on the rendering attack too much, only one out of twelve attacks made by a Daemonette or Seeker of Slaanesh will be a rendering attack. No doubt it is a nice bonus in combat but you cannot base your strategy around it. The Slaanesh units do have the large volume of attacks but Daemonettes and Seekers in the breakdown it equates too little. It just in most circumstances one Fiend of Slaanesh is still better than two Seekers of Slaanesh

 

Daemonettes have their uses but I feel they are over priced with the rule changes to Fleet and Rendering from 4th to 5th edition. In comparison to the other Daemon troop choices but also eye of thumb to other like units in the game. Like your comparison to Ork Boyz who Daemonettes are nearly 230% more expensive per model.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree Daemonettes don't seem much cop in CC, but as a Space Marines player I would rather not assault them! What does that tell you :cuss

 

To elaborate what I mean, they do have alot of attacks and rending is their added bonus. Taking a fist full of saves on a 5 man unit is not fun, while the odd rending is just making things worse. Consider 10 of them making it into assault, that's 40 attacks striking 1st! Even with only S3 I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that charge!

 

Thing to remember, as shock troops they are no good, but a Daemon player playing just Slaannesh will have me shooting at those Fiends, Greater Daemons and Keeper of Secrets as a priority won't they!

[Captain Malachi]

Problem is, against any single troops choice out there, bloodletters will kill more for the points (statistically, obviously there will be the odd case where this isn't true). Now, don't get me wrong, fiends and keepers are two of my favourite units in the whole codex, but mono-Slaanesh is really let down by daemonettes; less killy than Khorne, no shooting and the least survivable means they really don't fill a role something else can't do better.

 

In addition, while Slaanesh may have fiends and keepers to make up for it's weaker troops, Khorne has bloodcrushers and bloodthirsters. I just don't see a pure Slaanesh army being as good as a pure Khorne army.

 

Simply put: Daemonettes are good, bloodletters are better. That's the problem. (Although to be honest I'm not a huge fan of either)

 

@Idaho: Is there any CC unit in the game you would charge with a five man combat squad? ;)

[minigun762]

Problem is, against any single troops choice out there, bloodletters will kill more for the points (statistically, obviously there will be the odd case where this isn't true). Now, don't get me wrong, fiends and keepers are two of my favourite units in the whole codex, but mono-Slaanesh is really let down by daemonettes; less killy than Khorne, no shooting and the least survivable means they really don't fill a role something else can't do better.

 

Simply put: Daemonettes are good, bloodletters are better. That's the problem. (Although to be honest I'm not a huge fan of either)

 

This is something that I disagree with the esteemed Cap'n on.

I think the key advantage to Daemonettes is their speed. Not the I value which is nice, but the fact that they are Fleet.

This gives you some options on where you can deepstrike them since they are faster then other squads, but most importantly it means that on average, you're going to get into combat quicker then Bloodletters.

 

Sure 'Letters are more killy and more durable, but if Daemonettes are getting into assault on turn 2 and 'Letters are assaulting on turn 3, it might be much more even as far as overall killing power and durability since you're exposed to less incoming fire.

 

They are also better against faster vehicles where the 'Letters aren't able to assault them.

 

So to use Daemonettes well, you have to use their Fleet to get into combat faster.

Otherwise, they are just worse Bloodletters.

[Ntin]

That is misleading though, any Daemon can run on the turn they deep strike in. As long as the scatter was not too bad any Daemon can assault on the second turn. Daemonettes would simply get the benefit of an extra 2d6 inches.

[Captain Kratos]

but mono-Slaanesh is really let down by daemonettes; less killy than Khorne, no shooting and the least survivable means they really don't fill a role something else can't do better.

I agree with you. Need to hold an objective? Plaguebearers are your thing. Sheer killyness in close combat? Bloodletters are the best. Need to shoot? Horrors then.

 

However...

 

This really only comes into play when were talking about fielding a mixed list. In a mixed list I'm going to take the best troop choice for the job no matter what god they belong to, but this isn't the case in a mono-list.

 

I am in no way saying that Daemonettes are better in CC than Bloodletters. Nor am I saying that mono-Slaanesh should be ranked ahead of mono-Khorne. In fact I ranked them 1st and 2nd, with Khorne being #1. The issue for me isn't should Slaanesh supplant Khorne as #1, I already think Khorne is #1. Nor am I saying they're more survivable than Plaguebearers, or more shooty than Horrors (obviously, they can't shoot at all).

 

It simply comes down to ranking Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle for the next 3 spots. As we've done that collectively, Slaanesh has come in last place. All I'm saying is that taking Slaanesh as a whole (KoS, Fiends, and yes Daemonettes, etc.), they should be ranked much higher than last.

 

Think about it, if Khorne is number one, and Daemonetts are 2nd only to Bloodletters in CC. The KoS is 2nd only to a Bloodthirster in CC, and Fiends and Seekers are actually better than Bloodcrushers and Flesh Hounds in CC respectively. Shouldn't Slaanesh receive a higher ranking than last place? Honestly, all I'm saying is that they should.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. Daemonettes being what they are are still ok for Troops choices. You have Fiends and other units that will take some fire off the Daemonettes anyway.

[Captain Malachi]

Think about it, if Khorne is number one, and Daemonetts are 2nd only to Bloodletters in CC. The KoS is 2nd only to a Bloodthirster in CC, and Fiends and Seekers are actually better than Bloodcrushers and Flesh Hounds in CC respectively. Shouldn't Slaanesh receive a higher ranking than last place? Honestly, all I'm saying is that they should.

I agree with you to an extent. But, in 5th ed troops are what win you the game, and Slaanesh has the weakest troops. I think that's why they're ranked so low, or at least it's why I rank them so low. The fact that Nurgle and Tzeentch princes are better as well doesn't help, although at least they beat Khorne ones...

[twistinthunder]

Zero-Level Characteristics page 7 (Little Rule Book)

“A warrior with an Armour Saving Throw of ‘-‘ has no armor save at all.”

 

Power weapons page 42 (Little Rule Book)

“Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves”

 

To be disallowed an armour save the model in question would then have to allowed at some point, have to be able to make an armour save under normal circumstances (id est a non power weapon attack). You cannot negate something that did not exist in the first place. I cannot take candy from a child if the child did not have any candy, for example.

 

A side note by the accepted meaning of “Feel No Pain” where it states “any other wound against which no armour save can be taken” any unit without an armour save can never attempt the roll in the first place.

 

 

all daemons have an invulnerable save which is a form of armour save.

 

 

also no chaos god is better than his bretheren they still fight for dominance over one another.

[Captain Kratos]

I agree with you to an extent. But, in 5th ed troops are what win you the game, and Slaanesh has the weakest troops.

They're also the cheapest (well, aside from Nurglings, but they can't hold objectives). In a sense, they "should" be weaker than their more expensive counterparts. While their strength and toughness are at primary issue, they have other abilities that make them far from worthless.

 

For instance, while Plaguebearers can also wound and potentially kill a Hive Tyrant, Avatar, or Greater Daemon with their poisoned attacks, Daemonettes with a higher weapons skill, initiative, number of attacks, and rending stand far better a chance. The fact that they can not only hurt, but kill something like that is pretty nice you have to admit. And while all non vehicle units can run now, fleet is still a sweet deal. When taken into consideration with other Slaanesh abilities like Pavane the, Daemonettes suddenly become unbelievably fast. Add to that their ability to kill light vehicles better than any other troop choice (save maybe horrors with BoT, but honestly one shot with BS3 isn’t all that impressive), and Daemonettes have some redeeming qualities when used correctly.

 

Once again, I'm not saying Daemonettes are the better troop choice. Only that when all things are considered, they're far from worthless. Taken together with the other fabulous units available to Slaanesh (KoS and Fiends in particular) and I think, once again, mono-Slaanesh deserves a higher ranking.

 

 

The fact that Nurgle and Tzeentch princes are better as well doesn't help, although at least they beat Khorne ones...

Really? I agree Nurgle DP's are #1. But after that I'm not so convinced. Tzeentch DP's gaining a 4+ invul save is nice, and to me what might make the strongest case for them, but most of their upgrades are WAY too overpriced for what they do. I mean just to give a Tzeentch DP BoT and DG costs 80 points (MoT included)! Looking at a DP's stat line, it's clear the majority of what you're paying for with the base cost is a close combat monster. Mark of Slaanesh, hands down, plays more to the DP's strengths.

 

Taking mark of Tzeentch essentially affects, improves upon, and makes use of two of the DP's characteristics (BS and Invul. Sv), while taking mark of Slaanesh and the gifts it opens up (off./deff. grenades, minus one attack from your opponents PF, etc.) affects, improves upon, and makes use of 5 of the DP's stats (WS, BS, ST, I, & A). So which is better, affecting/improving etc. 5 stats or 2?

 

 

In addition, I'd like to add that it seems as though Pavane (like Daemonettes), is underestimated by people. I'm not at all saying BoT isn't nice, but being able to control your enemy's units, how cool is that?

 

No one seems to talk about how Pavane can be used to essentially pin an enemy unit (i.e. force a unit to move out of coherency so that on it's following turn it has to move back into coherency). That's huge, especially on the 1st turn. Think about it, in one fell swoop, you've reduced the effective range and amount of fire power coming your way. Because of fleet and Pavane in the following turn, you can deploy your Daemonettes farther back than other daemon units, reducing even further the amount of fire you'll be forced to endure. Using a DP's BS5 to unleash Pavane upon your opponent on the first turn can reduce the range of rapid fire weaponry and make it so they can't fire heavy weapons at all that turn, or, make it so they can't even fire at all (push them behind a hill or behind a building so they can no longer draw LOS to your units, etc.). I don't know about the rest of you, but that's huge on turn one (not to mention the rest of the game)... and only Slaanesh can do it (ok, the blue scribes can do it too, but you know what I mean). :)

[Captain Idaho]

No one seems to talk about how Pavane can be used to essentially pin an enemy unit (i.e. force a unit to move out of coherency so that on it's following turn it has to move back into coherency).

 

While I do agree with your sentiments regarding Slaannesh, I think the reason no-one talks about using Pavane that way is because it is an illegal move! ^_^

 

To use Pavane you need to move the enemy unit following the usual movement rules, which means not leaving a unit out of coherency.

[Ntin]

The problem with the Pavane of Slaanesh is anything that can use it you rather have it running than make a shooting attack. Circumstantially if you can guess the range to a fair degree you can make Pavane like your run move.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Here's my problem with Daemonettes.

 

Fragile as heck, and while yes they are pretty speedy, that doesn't help if your speed doesn't DO anything. For instance, a 12-man squad of Daemonettes (168 pts) versus a 10-man Tactical squad with flamer and heavy bolter (170 pts). The Tactical Squad will most likely get off one turn of shooting before the assault. Assuming they're in Rapid Fire range, 10 Marines will fire 7 bolters, a bolt pistol, a flamer, and a heavy bolter. The bolters and bolt pistols will land about 10 hits, with a minimum of roughly 2 hits from the flamer (that's being nice, too.) The heavy bolter will score 2 hits. The flamer and bolters will get roughly 6.6 wounds, and the heavy bolter another 1.3, for a total of about 8. After invulnerables, that's roughly 5 kills. So now you're stuck with 7 Daemonettes against 10 Marines. Not good.

 

Even if the Tacs DON'T get the shooting, 12 Daemonettes on the charge have 48 attacks, for 24 hits and thus 4 wounds and 4 rends, or roughly 5 dead Marines. The returning 7 attacks will score roughly 5 hits, 3 wounds, and 2 dead. So will the Daemonettes mess the Tacs up? Yes, but they won't mess 'em up NEARLY enough.

 

Problem part two.

 

It was said that you should go after Monstrous Creatures with Daemonettes. The thing is, I'd rather send a Keeper or Thirster on MC duty. They're better at it.

 

In summary:

- If you need something killy, Bloodletters.

- If you need something shooty, Horrors.

- If you need something tough, Plaguebearers.

- If you need something useless, Daemonettes.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The problem with the Pavane of Slaanesh is anything that can use it you rather have it running than make a shooting attack. Circumstantially if you can guess the range to a fair degree you can make Pavane like your run move.

The Pavane doesn’t get more attention because 1D6” worth of forced movement isn’t really all that. The Lash of Submission = 2D6” & the same unit can be affected more than once which is way over the top. A single D6” won’t even force a unit off an objective ½ the time.

 

Now if they had just made the Pavane 1D6 + 2” they would have had it about perfect. Instead, it’s only meh from a competitive standpoint.

 

And slightly OT: The only thought I would add to the criticisms of Daemonettes is that they only hold true in a mono-god list (which is after all the topic of this conversation). I still find in my own games that Bloodletters & Daemonettes make for the best foundation in a mixed-god army.

 

People who treat them like shock troops will be sorely disappointed. People who use them to hold objectives, screen assaults and position icons will be very pleased with their performance.

 

-OMG

[Corpse.]

Pavane of slaanesh is 1D6.

Fleet is 1D6.

 

Not much difference there except you can pull a character model near the front where you can get into B2B contact. Or put that IC in the middle where he gets no B2B contact and thus no attacks.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's my problem with Daemonettes.

 

Fragile as heck, and while yes they are pretty speedy, that doesn't help if your speed doesn't DO anything. For instance, a 12-man squad of Daemonettes (168 pts) versus a 10-man Tactical squad with flamer and heavy bolter (170 pts). The Tactical Squad will most likely get off one turn of shooting before the assault. Assuming they're in Rapid Fire range, 10 Marines will fire 7 bolters, a bolt pistol, a flamer, and a heavy bolter. The bolters and bolt pistols will land about 10 hits, with a minimum of roughly 2 hits from the flamer (that's being nice, too.) The heavy bolter will score 2 hits. The flamer and bolters will get roughly 6.6 wounds, and the heavy bolter another 1.3, for a total of about 8. After invulnerables, that's roughly 5 kills. So now you're stuck with 7 Daemonettes against 10 Marines. Not good.

 

I don't agree with such cross-codex comparisons. A game of 1,500pts you will never be using just 10 Tacticals vs 12 Daemonettes, so it isn't really relevant to see how effective Daemonettes are. What you aren't taking into account is what happens if the Daemonettes drop down close in a 2nd wave next to teleport homer (oops, I mean a Chaos Icon), or what happens when the opponent concentrates on your Daemonettes and your other units get in close combat, enabling Daemonettes to get into position, or what happens when Fiends of Slaannesh rush into CC quickly and your 2nd Wave Daemonettes are left unomolested, or if your opponent panics at your KoS and Fiends and ignores your Daemonettes, or if your Tactical squad opponents are hidden in transport (which they should be) and therefore only 2 can shoot...

 

Etc.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Pavane of slaanesh is 1D6.

Fleet is 1D6.

 

Not much difference there except you can pull a character model near the front where you can get into B2B contact. Or put that IC in the middle where he gets no B2B contact and thus no attacks.

Which is why the pavane is best used to support other models, not the model using it.

 

And cheers to Captain Idaho as well; meaning I am in agreement with his rebuttal.

 

-OMG

[Gibious]

Could I add my experience as a Deamonhunter against mono-deamons?

 

1. Tzneetch. Played in my area as a Fry then Die. Not a long run tactic, but has been known to wipe key units off the board turn 1 for the MC/ Soulgrinder to arrive later game unchallenged.

 

2. Slaneesh. KOS just hops from squad to squad impaling them all on his....

 

3. Khorne. Not to fussed with Bloodletters, the turn they arrive they get smoked. And with no extra ground covering with their Troops AND their Elites, I can stay out of assault range until its un-escapable Then charge a weaker unit.

 

4. Nurgle. Even though they have FNP. Power Fists/Klaws/Weapons Lascannons Meltas are very common (two regular necron players ya see) Then they just hit brick walls, then again I havent yet seen Epi in play yet.

 

With the Deamonette discussion,you dont expect them to do everything. You have Soulgrinders, Fiends and the Keeper for a lot of opponents. But what I would suggest for the little T3 models is MSU. Think of the troops like this.

 

Bloodletters:

Big block of sharp Assault Killyness

Horros:

Big block of Shooty killyness

Plaguebearers:

Big block (Lol)

 

But deamonetts shouldnt play big blocks. You would be safer with 6x5 Deamonettes working as one than 2x15 or even 30 if you can. How you ask? all because it forces allocation.

 

In shooting your opponent can only kill 5 from a single volley, and has to kill all 5 to remove that threat (fearless) If they wipe them 5 easily with overkill you just saved the other 25 Deamonettes from potentialy more wounds. And if they dont kill it outright they will have to waste more shots to kill of them 2 lone models (Who knows you could get lucky) And wasted dakka is lees on your KOS (He dies to easy to bolters)

 

So you make it to assault with potentialy more models, survivability kicks in here too. After you triple, quadrupal charge a squad. You get your attacks in first, which is always useful. When it comes to attacking back your opponent has to allocate his attacks between your packs. Now unless he can actualy see into the future and know exactly how many wounds he will roll for each designated unit, he will generate wastage. Wastage is what we like, 7 wounds put on one pack of 5 is 2 girls saved.

 

May seem silly but it works, splitting dice befor they have been rolled out can save lifes.

 

Also If you do break an opponent, and not catch them. You can break off a small size to escort the fleeing enemy right off the board.

 

With the Rending Str3 discussion: dont think it as only 5's wound and 6's rend on Marine. Think it as 1/2 of your wounds ignor armour =D

 

-Gib-

[Captain Malachi]

4. Nurgle. Even though they have FNP. Power Fists/Klaws/Weapons Lascannons Meltas are very common (two regular necron players ya see) Then they just hit brick walls, then again I havent yet seen Epi in play yet.

Yeah, without Epi mono-Nurgle is easily the worst.

 

As for your point on MSU's for 'nettes, I see what you're saying, but what about kill points? Just speaking for myself here, but I don't really like the idea of six KPs that are that easy to kill...