Terminator Heavy Weapons

[DarkGuard]

Have searched for a topic discussing this but couldn't find one. Apologies if this topic has been brought up before.

 

So I have been contemplating the thought of adding a 5-man Tactical Terminator unit into my army. The only problem is, I'm not sure which heavy weapon to go for. I'm overlooking the heavy flamer, not because I think it is inferior (it has it's own niche in the army and can be very effective at clearing out cover), but because I'd prefer to discuss the similarities of the Assault Cannon and Cyclone Missile Launcher, and which one generally performs better on the tabletop.

 

Now IMO, both then Assault Cannon (AC) and the Cyclone Missile Launcher (CML) perform similar rolls. They are both efficient at taking down infantry, the AC having a high strength, rending, decent AP and good rate of fire. The CML also has a good rate of fire, allows 5 stormbolters to be used, and cause a large amount of wounds due to having two template shots. However, they are both good at taking down vehicles. The CML is perhaps more reliable, as it doesn't have to rely on rending and just uses two krak missiles (which is pretty good for taking down light vehicles). However, the AC is the only weapon of the two that can penetrate AV14, although it does require quite a bit of luck.

 

The CML, however, has the advantage of a larger range, but IMO Terminators should be in the thick of the fighting, which would negate the lower range of the AC. Now the main problem I have with the CML is that when you are firing those krak missiles at a tank, you are wasting your bolter shots. The AC seems to me to be more of an anti-infantry weapon, and so these are the targets that bolters can harm, thereby meaning you aren't wasting the potential of the rest of the squad.

 

These are just my opinions on the matter, and I am still undecided. As far as looks go, I prefer the AC, but I would wish that this thread is more about the in-game effectiveness of the two weapons rather than what they look like.

 

So, then, in your opinion what is better, the Assault Cannon or the Cyclone Missile Launcher, and why?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

CML, since terms can move and fire it with relentles, they'll always be in a support position. It also out-multi-roles the AC.

[minigun762]

I look at it this way.

If you're planning on deepstriking your Terminators, then the Ass-Can is the better choice, more dakka up close and personal.

If you're planning on walking up the board, the CML is better as it allows you to reach out and touch someone from 48".

 

An important thing to rember though, don't forget about the StormBolters. In either case, 8 S4 shots will typically kill more infantry then 4 S6 or 2 S4 blasts, so keep that in mind.

[drakus40k]

Go with the cyclone. You keep your storm bolter, & you have the choice of Krak or Frag. I usually use Krak on MEQ's...two armor ignoring wounds are great. Anyway, take a chainfist if you're worried about AV 14, but shooting at AV 14 is a waste with either weapon load out.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Minigun is right. If teleporting go with the Assault Cannon but if footslogging go with the Cyclone ML.

 

I use 2 5-man squads with ACs and 1 Chainfist each Teleporting in, homing in on Marneus Calgar's (or any other guy with a homer) Land Raider.

 

 

Anyway, take a chainfist if you're worried about AV 14, but shooting at AV 14 is a waste with either weapon load out.

 

Unless you are going to be charging said AV 14 :P . And if you immobilise the tank then that helps in assault.

[DarkGuard]

Thank you for the insight everyone. So it would appear that CML is the preferred option to take. I can see why this is so, as it's versatility is outstanding.

 

Note I was never too interested in shooting an Assault Cannon at AV14, I'd use meltas/chainfists etc for that, it was just an advantage of the AC over the CML.

 

Thank you everyone for their thoughts on this topic so far.

[Hackbar]

I did a quick bit of mathhammer in my head and, without even counting the extra storm bolter, the only case in which the AssCan comes out ahead of the CML is against other terminators or equivalent, and then only if rending actually bothers to show up as often as it statistically should, and even then you'll probably only get one or two rends in a game, assuming your termis spend a turn or 2 in CC. If you're facing an all-scout army, then the AssCan is slightly better than the CML, but not enough to offset the benefit of the extra storm bolter. This makes me very sad, as the asscan is a prety cool weapon that just doesn't seem to deliver compared to the improved CML. Plus, with the CML you have an extra storm bolter that you can re-roll to hit with when Lysander is attatched. XD

[Hfran Morkai]

I find it interesting that in our gaming group I was the only player to use CML's, then the 5th ed codex came out and it made them so much sweeter.

 

I believe all have their own roles.

[chapter master 454]

sad but true, the assault cannon on terminators is now almost (if not completely) redundant. The CML is now a butt-kicker of high class as it is an addition rather than replacement (so lets say if they had made it one per squad could add it to their weapons then the assault cannon wouldn't be useless) so not only does lysander get to tell that marine to show the dice whose boss and not to roll 1s and 2s but he can tell rhinos and other light armoured tanks to get lost while being able to blast apart infantry with frag missles.

 

Unless your expecting high volumes of AV14 (I think statistically the assault cannon is something like .05 better than a lascannon against AV14) then the ass-cannon is now just completely useless, unless you just love the imagine of the whirling minigun barrel putting out 1000 speeding bullets of death a second!

[Captain Idaho]

Well there is one plus point that Assault cannons have which are subtle and overlooked most times and that is the fact the weapon works best firing at the primary targets Storm bolters fire at, i.e. infantry. The problem with Cyclones is its always so tempting to fire at vehicles and targets over 24" away, which makes those Storm Bolters fairly redundant.

 

Against all infantry barring 3+ saves the Assault cannons are nasty (wounding on 2+ with no saves) and the rending grants the weapon utility to an extent.

 

Shame so does the Cyclone, but at least it complements those Storm bolters, so you won't be tempted to fire at that Dreadnought or hang back and take pot shots.

[DarkGuard]

Well there is one plus point that Assault cannons have which are subtle and overlooked most times and that is the fact the weapon works best firing at the primary targets Storm bolters fire at, i.e. infantry. The problem with Cyclones is its always so tempting to fire at vehicles and targets over 24" away, which makes those Storm Bolters fairly redundant.

 

Against all infantry barring 3+ saves the Assault cannons are nasty (wounding on 2+ with no saves) and the rending grants the weapon utility to an extent.

 

Shame so does the Cyclone, but at least it complements those Storm bolters, so you won't be tempted to fire at that Dreadnought or hang back and take pot shots.

 

I agree with you here Captain Idaho, and this is a point I've tried to put across in the favour of the AC.

 

However, I do agree that the CML is the better weapon out there, which is a shame, as I really do like the AC.

[minigun762]

However, I do agree that the CML is the better weapon out there, which is a shame, as I really do like the AC.

 

I don't know if I could agree that its so cut and dry.

Against anything with a 2+ save the AC does better.

Against 4+ and maybe even 5+ the AC does better.

 

I'd have to run the numbers against AV10-14 but I believe they're competitive.

 

The main advantage of the CML in my mind is the range, which is wasted if you're deepstriking or getting close to assault something.

[DarkGuard]

However, I do agree that the CML is the better weapon out there, which is a shame, as I really do like the AC.

 

I don't know if I could agree that its so cut and dry.

Against anything with a 2+ save the AC does better.

Against 4+ and maybe even 5+ the AC does better.

 

I'd have to run the numbers against AV10-14 but I believe they're competitive.

 

The main advantage of the CML in my mind is the range, which is wasted if you're deepstriking or getting close to assault something.

 

True, I was making a sweeping generalisation there. Tiredness and too much work, but as you say it is more specific.

 

However, in terms of general usage (ie. if you don't know what army you are facing), it would seem that the CML is the preferred option.

 

If you could run some numbers though that would be much appreciated.

[ShinyRhino]

What about the fact that when teleporting, you're tending to aim yourself at the "most advantageous angle." By this I mean that if you're teleporting onto the field to attack the rear of an Imperial Guard ot Tau force, you're going to try to get behind the vehicles, or spray fire at the infantry. Being in this rear arc of vehicles boosts the effect of the AssCan quite a bit, since you're now going up against AV10 instead of the front armor values. Sure, the CML is S8 against the AV10 rear and a near-guarantee of a glance, but its anti-infantry fire mode is subject to scatter as well as model spacing. I've never had much luck hitting more than two models with a small blast template, which makes the AssCan a better choice for anti-infantry work, and an acceptable one for anti vehicle work in the rear arc.