Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 First off, just to get it out of the way and to pre-empt the "you can only use them when your opponent is Witch/Daemon Hunters" posts, what about if you ignored those restrictions and just treated the adversaries as an extra "mini codex"? Would anyone consider making an army based around these "adversaries" rules either for fluff/fun/other reasons? If so, what would you consider taking in the army list and what models would you use? Also, would you use a theme from 40k/elsewhere to make the list? Personally, I'm actually interested in making both a Witch Hunter and Daemon Hunter Adversaries army. For Witch Hunters, I'd probably go along the lines of a mutant force made up from Beastmen models equipped with autoguns etc. Lets hear some ideas people! :tu: (edited: spelling) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibious Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I do not understand entirely what you mean by this post. WH and DH ARE adversaries. They were created to hunt a type of enemy. The clue is in the Hunters part of their name. Demon Hunters fight solely aginst Deamons. So funnily enough their prefered enemy would be the Deamon codex and partialy the Chaos warriors. Witch Hunters seek to purge the witch and heretic. Effectivley anyone whos a witch. Whos a witch? Anyone who the Witch Hunters are slightley ticked off with. Who? Anyone! So their prefered opponents would be a Codex that has a psyker powers section. Basically everyone. -Gib- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2160780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 He's talking about using the Adversaries rules at the back of the Inquisition codexes. I've never known anybody to use those rules. Ever. Your opponent has to be willing to spend points on adversarial units. No opponent I've ever met has ever wanted to do that. You can't build an entire adversaries army because there is no official army list for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2160856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 Ok... so people obviously still not getting the idea here... er... ok... 1) Forget the whole idea that they can only be used against the Witch/Daemon Hunters 2) Imagine that the "Adversaries" listed at the end of the Witch/Daemon Hunters armies are stand alone codex lists 3) It's an exercise in fun, imagination and fluff (these rabble armies must exist somewhere in the 40k universe So, to get us going, heres my own example list: HQ > Apostate Cardinal - cardinal with 5 pontifex guard (crusaders) 215 > Rogue Psyker - laspistol, enhancer, soul shrive, puppet dance 75 Troops > Mutant Rabble - 15 mutants with laspistols, krak grenades, "goatheaded" (+1S) 210 > Mutant Rabble - 15 mutants with laspistols, krak grenades, "goatheaded" (+1S) 210 > Mutant Rabble - 15 mutants with laspistols, krak grenades, "goatheaded" (+1S) 210 > Mutant Rabble - 15 mutants with laspistols, krak grenades, "goatheaded" (+1S) 210 > Traitors - 10 traitors, meltagun 90 > Traitors - 10 traitors, meltagun 90 > Traitors - 10 traitors, heavy bolter, plasmagun 100 > Traitors - 10 traitors, heavy bolter, plasmagun 100 > Traitors - 10 traitors, lascannon, plasmagun 110 > Traitors - 8 traitors, lascannon, plasmagun 94 total 1499 The Apostate Cardinal means Traitors don't use a space on the force organisation chart. For this army, I'd probably use Beastmen for the Mutants and Guardsmen for the Traitors. Cardinal would probably be a priest of some form, and Crusaders for the "Pontifex Guard". Then obvious choice for the Psyker would be an Imperial psyker of some sort. I'm actually quite tempted to make this force anyway ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2161204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glsn Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 If anyone came to the board with an army like this, I would love to play against it. This sounds like a lot of fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2161214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyTarget Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I've heard of an advisary only army. I personally play space marines, which started to tower in the 7000-8000 point range, so I started on Grey Knights. My girlfriend has a pretty massive ork force so she made pretty much a new army based completely on demon possessed orks to fight me. She basically used black orks? from fantasy, and a few fantasy demons actually to make up a not very sizeable force, but very strong. Shes mostly just really wanted to paint a giant 4 winged greater demon and an ork transforming into it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yeah, the Witch Hunter Adversaries are pretty much the old Lost and the Damned Troop choices plus a couple cool new HQ choices. It's a shame that nobody ever wants to use the Adversaries rules - I've only once seen it done and it was a rather weird situation - two Daemonhunter players ended up across the table from one another, so one brought a Lesser Daemon pack. Normally that wouldn't be so odd except that both armies included Grey Knights! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yeah, it's a nice idea and I couldn't see many reasonable players refusing to play against an adversaries list. After all there are a few (albeit a very few) who still have the likes of genestealer cults where they use homebrewed rules. I think an interesting question would be could you legally field these because they are rules in an official codex? Ultimately I'd love to see GW produce a 40K expansion for cults, militia, kroot mercs, rogue traders, etc. Not necessarily a codex but something that broadens the scope for the more unconventional elements that are found in some of the BL novels and are also found in Dark Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibious Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Now that I understand you, and re-read the DH Codex. I would be very much up for fielding some Deamon troops that provide randomness and unreliability. Potentialy WS S T I of a god but then again they could also be 20pts with a human statline... As for the Greater Deamon, no. The instability test is WAY too sketchy he would most likely pop the turn he arrives. -Gib- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Ultimately I'd love to see GW produce a 40K expansion for cults, militia, kroot mercs, rogue traders, etc. Not necessarily a codex but something that broadens the scope for the more unconventional elements that are found in some of the BL novels and are also found in Dark Heresy. If only GW had some kind of publication where they could regularly publish stuff like this. Oh well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 I think an interesting question would be could you legally field these because they are rules in an official codex? sadly not unless you had the tourny organisers permission - simply due to the wording in the WH codex: "These units may only be used when fighting against a witch hunters army." and: "... though they may not be taken as the compulsory choices from the force organisation chart" ... but as mentioned, we're ignoring that for now :) lol at number6 - indeed... it's like they could do with some kind of monthly modelling magazine... or maybe even a website where they could provide gaming/etc articles. But having said that, we did used to get those kind of things... last one I can really think of though is the fanatics for the witch hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2169837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I have thought of this for a while, the only problem is that there are no elites or heavy support, so unless you spammed traitors with lascannons and plasmaguns, you would have no anti-tank, but I have always wanted to do a traitor unit... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2172036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 This would be quite an easy army to make. Take an IG army, declare it traitoris extremis and then spatter in a bunch of adversaries choices. Voila. Hell if you can get advance permission in a tournament to do this it would be totally awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2172360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 @ The emperors chosen: Yeah, there is obviously the limiting factor of no elites/heavy choices (and no real fast attack to speak of), but I think that could be worked around with some inovation - depending on your "theme" I'd suggest Imperial Guard choices, Chaos Daemons choices or maybe even Inquisition choices (a rebel Inquisitor... obviously not grey knights). But then again, it just adds variety to the scope and much area for inspiration... @silversmith82: A very astute and effective plan - I really like the idea of getting permission from tourney organisers to use it aswell... man I am getting increasingly tempted to do this... Every time I come back to this thread, and when I read input from my (rather ingenious!) fellow Bolter and Chainsworders, I keep getting the temptation to work out a "fandex" (if thats the word) to actually turn the starting points in the codexes into a stand alone list. ... and I've just "finished" my Guard army... do I have the spare time? :) If you guys think this could be an interesting plan, and if you'd like to help out, let me know... maybe I/we can work on it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2172410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I've seen a bunch of really bad fandexes but in this case... the units and rules are already there. And I say it'd have to be "regular humans" only since any Space Marines player that wants to go traitor just busts out the CSM codex and voila. All the rules are there. So an IG army OR a Radical Inquisitor's army could get these rules. I think it'd be super fluffy either way. Planets go renegade all the time and I could easily see a Radical Inquisitor summoning a Greater Daemon or a Daemon pack. I mean, how fluffy (and awesome) would it be for a radical inquisitor to use his body as a daemonvessel and then attempt to resist possesion all game to get the S rating of the Greater Demon and become a CC monster? Equally fluffy is for him to invite possession thinking he could control the Greater Daemon and then dying in spectacular fashion as the Greater Daemon bursts forth. Honestly as far as rules go I would do... Any Imperial Guard army may play as renegades and therefore gain access to the adversaries rules as listed in Codex: Witch Hunters and/or Codex: Daemonhunters. However, a renegade Imperial Guard army may not use ANY special characters or character upgrades (including commissars). Any Daemonhunters army including an Inquisitor using daemonhosts and no Sisters of Battle allies gains access to the adversaries rules in Codex: Daemonhunters. Any Witch Hunters army led by an Inquisitor Lord and that includes no Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights allies gains access to the adversaries rules in Codex: Witch Hunters. Armies must still follow the standard force organization chart and must take the minimum compulsory choices from the main army lists in their own codex (Therefore, a Radical Witch Hunters or Daemonhunters army would have to contain at least one Inquisitor Lord and two Inquisitorial Stormtrooper squads even though the adversaries choices are in their respective codexes). There, simple, completely legit as far as rules go and like I said, Inquisitor as a daemonvessel is just crazy awesemo9000. Only downside is the Inquisitor Lord is the only HQ unit you could do this for in the DH army (no GK allowed and the daemonvessel must be HQ) so it would have to be him, or another unsuspecting Inquisitor Lord since you can have 2 obviously. Great way for an assasination of a mentor actually if the Inquisitor with daemonhosts was the elite variety... Something a fallen Inquisitor might do to gain access to all the resources of his "dearly departed mentor". As for the Witch Hunter, plenty of angles there. His continued use of Psychic powers eventually corrupts him and he gains psychic apocalypse, one of his mystics was once a rogue psyker and falls back to his/her old ways corrupting the Inquisitor in the process. Maybe a really REALLY charismatic Apostate Cardinal actually convinces an Inquisitor that everything he believes in is a lie? Like I said lots of ways to play it. As for the Greater Deamon, no. The instability test is WAY too sketchy he would most likely pop the turn he arrives. That test is only for a Greater Daemon that comes into play because the daemonvessel got killed before being taken over. If the Greater Daemon comes in the normal way then its good to go for the rest of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2172635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 silversmith82 I doff my psychic hood to you! It does actually seem quite easy to make this a reality... On the HQ side of things, I agree with you that there would be a minor issue for the Daemonhunters (and, to an extent, the Witch Hunters also). Maybe The WH adversaries could allow the Apostate Cardinal or Rogue Psyker to be a compulsory choice? Still leaves the Daemonhunters adversaries though... Spit balling ideas for the HQ options: 1) Allow Inquisitors AND Inquisitor Lords to be taken as HQ choices - allows for a (slightly) cheaper alternative to the Lord 2) Rogue Psykers and Apostate Cardinals become available as compulsory choices - no need to change it really from whats already in the WH book and they seem to be compatible with Daemons, kind of like calling to the foul gods for aid... and then getting possessed (haha... serves the heretics right! :P) 3) Just leave it as Inquisitor Lord being the only available compulsory HQ choice (same as DH players who take Daemon Hosts) Still need ideas for the Heavy support choices for the "Inquisitor" led armies though... Would it be worth (for the DH adversaries) delving into the Chaos Daemons codex? I suppose WH would still be able to use Penitent Engines (re-worded maybe). Maybe I'm thinking too much on this... they could still be allowed to use "Inducted Guard/allied Marines" listed in the codex (Relictors style marines :)) P.S. also very true on the Greater Daemon Instability tests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2172858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If you played WH adversaries based on IG you could take a primaris psyker as your compulsory HQ and a cuple of vet squads as you compulsory troops then fill the gaps with the special options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2173006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 For the heavy support options... Honestly some of the very best armor busting the Inquisition has is the 5x IST squad with dual meltas in a Rhino/Chimera. Not to mention for every Inquisitor you take you can buy a Land Raider. Problem solved. They'd just need to re-word the FAQ to give the dedicated Land Raiders PotM because currently they don't get it. And yes they can still induct IG AND Space Marines as there are no GK or SoB present. Big IG platoon chock full of weaponry, allied tac squads, devastators. You can get a SM Land Raider or Predator too if you buy 2 tac squads IIRC. Remember, all that the inducted SM chapter knows is that it is responding to the call of the Inquisition and they'll trust that it is a completely legit venture. Which, in the Radical Inquisitor's mind it is. Obvioulsy if there are summoned daemonpacks running around at the behest of the Inquisitor there are going to be issues at the end of the battle. Or maybe the Inquisitor convinces the SM that what he is doing is sanctioned by the Inquisition at large and nothing happens besides a bunch of raised eyebrows. Not like this hasn't happened before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2173031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 For the heavy support options... Honestly some of the very best armor busting the Inquisition has is the 5x IST squad with dual meltas in a Rhino/Chimera. Not to mention for every Inquisitor you take you can buy a Land Raider. Problem solved. They'd just need to re-word the FAQ to give the dedicated Land Raiders PotM because currently they don't get it. And yes they can still induct IG AND Space Marines as there are no GK or SoB present. Big IG platoon chock full of weaponry, allied tac squads, devastators. You can get a SM Land Raider or Predator too if you buy 2 tac squads IIRC. Remember, all that the inducted SM chapter knows is that it is responding to the call of the Inquisition and they'll trust that it is a completely legit venture. Which, in the Radical Inquisitor's mind it is. Obvioulsy if there are summoned daemonpacks running around at the behest of the Inquisitor there are going to be issues at the end of the battle. Or maybe the Inquisitor convinces the SM that what he is doing is sanctioned by the Inquisition at large and nothing happens besides a bunch of raised eyebrows. Not like this hasn't happened before. While it is a good idea, I don't think that SM would work with demons, even if it was sanctioned. Maybe keep the troop choices in the Wh codex, and give them a leman russ, or bigger mutants... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2174330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drathmere Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I would love to field these alternative armies. I am toying with building a mutant army. Two huge bands of mutants, one with the bloated ability and the other with the cavalry ability. Add to that 4-5 traitor groups with heavy weapons tanks, and at least one guy with chaos upgrades and I think I would have a really fully army. The fact that the traitors are infiltrators is pretty cool as well! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2174387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gabriel Lupus Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Ok, so I was thinking maybe something along the following lines (at least as a starting point): Rogue Witch Hunters/Traitors list: HQ: Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Lord : HQ choice from Witch Hunter Codex Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor : Elites choice from Witch Hunter Codex Rogue Psyker : HQ choice from Witch Hunter Codex adversaries Apostate Cardinal : HQ choice from Witch Hunter Codex adversaries Elites: Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor : Elites choice from Witch Hunter Codex Death Cult Assassin : Elites choice from Witch Hunter Codex Arco-Flagellants : Elites choice from Witch Hunter Codex Troops: Inquisitorial Storm Troopers : Troops choice from Witch Hunter Codex Mutants : Troops choice from Witch Hunter Codex adversaries Traitors (without transport) : Troops choice from Witch Hunter Codex adversaries Fast Attack: Traitors (with transport) : Troops choice from Witch Hunter Codex adversaries Heavy Support: Penitent Engines : Heavy Support choice from Witch Hunter Codex Orbital Strike : Heavy Support choice from Witch Hunter Codex Leman Russ Battle Tank (Battle Tank/Exterminator) : Heavy support choice from Imperial Guard Codex Basically its a mix of whats in the Witch Hunters codex and their adversaries with the Leman Russ added from the Imperial Guard Codex - I restriceted the Leman Russ choices to what seemed likely to be able to be supplied by the traitor army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2175102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 You have 3 HQs and 4 Elites= no go. I'd also keep the Leman Russ restricted to having to have 2 IG platoons as that is how you can legally get it via GW rules. Inducted Space Marines would be perfectly ok IMO. Heck, just make them the Relictors. Problem solved lol. I think the biggest thing for being able to play an army like this is to keep everything legal as written in the codex with the simple change of getting access to them. Whether this is a green light from your gaming group or permission from a tournament organizer. Makes it easy, no argueing over rules, and all info is provided in the codexes already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2175114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Wow. This thread has inspired me to give the adversaries lists another look when I get home. I didnt't realize how much meat was in there. Just a thought, though: Do you think these adversaries choices are 'legal' (even against non-inquisition) in the context of an apocalypse game? A horde of mutants and minor daemons led by a posessed cardinal who somehow managed to steal/loot/scavenge a titan would be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2175123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Honestly, anything can be legal as long as you and your opponent give it the ok beforehand. It isn't like GW is going to come to your house and make you play by the exact rules if you don't lol. But yeah there is basically a minidex at th back of both books. Moreso for the WH codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2175210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I think there are too many people unwilling to play home brew armies and the like in 40k and that its a bad thing. As mentioned before, I dream of one day building a rough rider regiment but its not a legal army so I have a problem finding anyone who'll play it. There are many other games where players in general are far more willing to expand the game themselves and develop they're own rules (even GW's own Inquisitor has a following of people who are willing to play with drastically altered rules. Points cost is the biggest stumbling block but adapting the adversary rules means the points per model are already official. Hobbying is all about fun, so do what brings you most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182658-witchdaemon-hunter-adversaries/#findComment-2175238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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