heretic??ME?? Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Ok I been thinking on this for a while Grey Knights and Daemons do not get on very well, anyone who hangs out with them are a BIG NO NO. So how do we get a full chapter of marines that have been possessed, training with the Grey Knights??? Now does the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, include a similar idea or do the exorcists take it further?? Surely the exorcists training would require the summoning of daemons, temporarily using the Daemon- A radical idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Actually, there's no fluff that says that the Exorcists train with the Grey Knights. The original Third War for Armageddon fluff included the Grey Knights, but only in a role in which a single squad was kept in reserve while the Exorcists were tested upon a daemon world. What the Grey Knights were in reserve for is anybody's guess. Perhaps they were there to extricate the Exorcists if things went bad. Alternately, they may have been there to fight against the Exorcists if they turned on the Inquisitors. The fluff isn't clear and speculation can go both ways. From the Heroes of the Space Marines novel we learn (perhaps unofficially) that the Exorcists were created using the Grey Knights' gene-seed, and also that the Exoricsts know (some of) the same anti-daemons/Chaos litanies/oaths/etc. as the Grey Knights. These two elements, however, don't in any way indicate that the two Chapters have a working relationship. In fact, the second part (the oaths) is easily explained based on the Third War for Armageddon fluff about the Exorcists being trained in the 666 rituals. This training appears to have been conducted by the Inquisitors, who are likely from the Ordo Malleus - daemon hunters in their own right. So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the Exorcists and Grey Knights train together. That's purely speculative and not necessarily supported by the background material. It's possible, though it's not likely based on one valid interpretation of the fluff. As for the 666 rituals, they are likely only part of the training that both Chapters get. Both Chapters probably get trained in other tools of daemon hunting, and it's possible that there's considerable overlap. There are possibly some things that each Chapter trains in differently or exclusively. We just don't know. Yes, the Exorcists' possession/exorcism ritual falls deep into the realm of the Radical. My own view is that the Grey Knights would take quite a dim view of it if they were aware that it took place. Whatever the level of knowledge the Grey Knights have of the Exorcists, it seems likely to me that they're completely unaware of the Exorcists' practice. In fact, I'd speculate that the Exorcists keep that little habit a complete secret from everyone except whatever Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors they might still share a relationship with (and even that relationship is speculative based on the closing statements of the Third War for Armageddon fluff). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2161976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic??ME?? Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thanks I was thinking they would have to keep it secret. So the members of the Ordo Malleus involved in the testing of the Exorcists are treading a dangerous path, using the Grey Knights when needed, but also running off and playing with daemons on the side. I suppose that as long as any unfriendly inquisition inspection teams are kept away from Banish during the possession ceremonies, the Exorcists are all ok. One wrong move and in comes the excommunicate traitorous. The end justifies the means. Right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2161982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Exactly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2162264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Besides, if anything goes wrong and the Exorcists go bad, the Inquisition can just call in the Grey Knights to exterminate the Chapter - it wouldn't be the first time that the Knights wiped out a renegade Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2162273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretic??ME?? Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Of course then the issues of who ordered the creation of the chapter would come into effect. This is high level stuff, they have the GK working for them, a radical chapter basically under them and they got away with it in the first place. Oh and daemons coming out of their ass.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2162279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Well, the Ordo Malleus commissioned the creation of the Exorcists as a sort of 'test run' in creating more anti-daemon Astartes which are incorruptible, as a sort of counter-part to the Grey Knights. The issue with the Grey Knights is that while they are 666 kinds of bad-ass, and make Daemon Princes their bitch in combat, they're incredibly rare and a lot of initiates die in training/induction. So, the OM decide that it's easier to create a Chapter of Illuminati Marines than it is to make more Grey Knights. It kinda makes sense when you think about it. I mean, a Grey Knight has to be a psyker+be pure+survive training/augmentation+become slightly deranged in terms of belief, whereas an Exorcist simply has to survive training+survive getting possessed. Mind you, I'm sure a lot of Exorcist initiates still die when possessed, but there are still probably more potential Exorcists than potential Grey Knights. So for now, the Exorcists are unique, but it may end up that the OM extends their 'get possessed, throw the bugger out of your soul, become insanely good at killing warp-creatures' concept to new Foundings. I mean, they need more anti-Chaos Astartes to keep Abaddon+friends penned up at the Cadian Gate, and having such reinforcements on hand to support the Grey Knights would be a massive help. Grey Knights focus on killing Daemons, Exorcists+similiar fight the more conventional battles against traitor Legionaries, LotD, traitor Guardsmen etc. They are distinct Chapters though, and as pointed out before the Grey Knights wouldn't be keen on the whole possession deal. They're kinda polar opposites in their approach. GK is a psyker that focuses his powers inwards to shield his soul from corruption. Exorcist allows a Daemon into his head, then chucks him out later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2163057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I wouldn't say that "the Ordo Malleus" decided anything. I would say that "a handful of Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors" decided to do something. There's a huge difference between an entire institution carrying out what is such a blatantly Radical idea (and one for which many Ordo Malleus Inquisitors would invoke extreme sanction for) and a handful of renegades carrying out a risky action. And while some of the points in the post above are certainly valid, we don't know why the Exorcists were created. To fight daemons better than normal Space Marines, certainly, but the exact reasoning beyond that is unknown. Any theories proposed are just that - theories and speculation. They might be good theories, and they might even turn out to be correct, but Games Workshop hasn't given us a solid description of the process behind the decision to create the Exorcists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2163317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 IMO, the GK were there as a safety in case the Exorcists went bad. Orders probably went something like "At the first sign of any corruption you are to exterminate them down to the last man. Leave none alive." Also, the GK as a whole are about 3x as many in number as a normal chapter. But yes they are incredibly rare because they are often spread out all over the Imperium in small units consisting of 1 squad to a strike cruiser full of awesomeness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2170011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Also, the GK as a whole are about 3x as many in number as a normal chapter. But yes they are incredibly rare because they are often spread out all over the Imperium in small units consisting of 1 squad to a strike cruiser full of awesomeness. They're not 'spread all over' at all, they live on Titan. I'm a little exasperated by people's inability to comprehend that space travel in 40k has nothing to do with physical distances. It's all about how fast you can move through the warp. By having ships with hexagrammic wards written into every weld point and bolt, not to mention crafted to be ultra-fast yet heavily armed and armoured, crewed by the best Navigators in the Imperium, the Grey Knights can reach any warzone they want from the Sol star system. I wouldn't say that "the Ordo Malleus" decided anything. I would say that "a handful of Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors" decided to do something. There's a huge difference between an entire institution carrying out what is such a blatantly Radical idea (and one for which many Ordo Malleus Inquisitors would invoke extreme sanction for) and a handful of renegades carrying out a risky action. Fair enough, but the fact the Exorcists haven't been purged, and they've participated with active Malleus support in the Badab War (they were the gauntlet the Brazen Claws had to get past to escape into the Malestrom), so even if they weren't 100% sanctioned to begin with, I find it unlikely they aren't now. I'm sure the project had high-level support, it's not something done lightly or easy to hide (gene-seed is a very restricted resource in the Imperium, even to Inquisitors). And while some of the points in the post above are certainly valid, we don't know why the Exorcists were created. To fight daemons better than normal Space Marines, certainly, but the exact reasoning beyond that is unknown. Any theories proposed are just that - theories and speculation. They might be good theories, and they might even turn out to be correct, but Games Workshop hasn't given us a solid description of the process behind the decision to create the Exorcists. We could probably just leave it at 'experimental Chapter for killing Daemons better'. I've just guessed they're a reinforcement to the Chamber Militant, although it seems pretty plausible (seeing the connection both share with the Ordo Malleus). I mean, they were the Chapter chosen in the Badab War to deal with the daemonic allies of the Tyrant, not the Grey Knights. Badab was before the 13th Black Crusade, so I gather the Grey Knights weren't so stretched they couldn't be deployed in that role. It's not something they haven't done before either (they were chosen to purge the Relictors for similar reasons). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2170249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Also, the GK as a whole are about 3x as many in number as a normal chapter. But yes they are incredibly rare because they are often spread out all over the Imperium in small units consisting of 1 squad to a strike cruiser full of awesomeness. They're not 'spread all over' at all, they live on Titan. I'm a little exasperated by people's inability to comprehend that space travel in 40k has nothing to do with physical distances. It's all about how fast you can move through the warp. By having ships with hexagrammic wards written into every weld point and bolt, not to mention crafted to be ultra-fast yet heavily armed and armoured, crewed by the best Navigators in the Imperium, the Grey Knights can reach any warzone they want from the Sol star system. It has nothing to do with anyone's ability to comprehend space travel in 40k and everything to do with fluff written in the codex. DH codex pg. 7, 2nd paragraph from the end. "while the Chapter maintains a fighting strength on Titan, the majority of the Grey Knights forces are scattered amongst the stars." Yes I know they are BASED on Titan. But they're needed in so many places that they are almost never there in any appreciable numbers. They kind of don't need to be either since the Inquisition has Saturn and its moons so fortified it is beyond crazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2170485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 It has nothing to do with anyone's ability to comprehend space travel in 40k and everything to do with fluff written in the codex. DH codex pg. 7, 2nd paragraph from the end. "while the Chapter maintains a fighting strength on Titan, the majority of the Grey Knights forces are scattered amongst the stars." Yes I know they are BASED on Titan. But they're needed in so many places that they are almost never there in any appreciable numbers. They kind of don't need to be either since the Inquisition has Saturn and its moons so fortified it is beyond crazy. Ie, they're scattered across the stars on active deployment (because they sure as hell wouldn't be wasted with garrison duties, thats what Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are for). However, seeing as the 13 Black Crusade has happened, I'd imagine all those dispersed strike-forces have been recalled and sent to Cadia instead (the 'Grey Knights' novels certainly imply this). Don't forget that every Grey Knight strikeforce has to return to Titan after their mission is complete to re-arm, bury their dead and recuperate. Titan is the only place they can do all three. So, therefore they deploy from Titan and only return when they've completed their mission. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2171259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 ^Agreed. I'm not argueing that fact, I'm just saying that they are scattered all over the galaxy which they are. Yes of course it is on active deployment. However they are in such great demand that their re-arm/recuperate turnaround is quite fast, hence there isn't much of a presence on Titan at any one time. Although at this time they are mostly all at Cadia because of the Black Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2171568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Fair enough, but the fact the Exorcists haven't been purged, and they've participated with active Malleus support in the Badab War (they were the gauntlet the Brazen Claws had to get past to escape into the Malestrom), so even if they weren't 100% sanctioned to begin with, I find it unlikely they aren't now. I'm sure the project had high-level support, it's not something done lightly or easy to hide (gene-seed is a very restricted resource in the Imperium, even to Inquisitors). I don't recall any of the descriptions of the Badab War mentioning the Exorcists participating "with active Malleus support". In fact, no such partnership is implied during the Exorcists' involvement in the Gothic War or the Thirteenth Black Crusade, either, and both of those were against Chaos (the Astral Claws may not have turned to Chaos until after fleeing into the Maelstrom). Can you cite an official source for your assertion? As far as being "sanctioned" goes, I doubt that there has ever been an issue on that account. I think that the only real secrecy has been with regard to the possession/exorcism practice. As far as everyone else (including the rest of the Inquisition, and especially the Puritan factions) is concerned, the Exorcists are just another Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. My bet is that anyone involved in the Chapter's creation was knowingly taking part in something they knew would find them on the wrong side of a firing squad if they got caught - even those at the highest levels. They just happened to get away with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182764-exorcists-and-grey-knights/#findComment-2171814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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