Dreadnought

[Clone]

I've used 2 of these Dreads before against a heavy infantry IG player. It worked wonders. I was taking down Heavy Weapons teams and Command Squads with ease. However, that was with the Vanilla SM codex. With the SW's I think there are better Elite choices available, Scouts, and Lone Wolves for example.

[WolfLordLars]

Not sure its worth a FW Order to get the options. One Dread with TLLC/ML, one with AC/DCCW/HF (or whatever your close set up is), and that should take care of your elite slots. The only time I could see anyone using it would be in Apocalypse games.

[WG Vrox]

Not sure its worth a FW Order to get the options. One Dread with TLLC/ML, one with AC/DCCW/HF (or whatever your close set up is), and that should take care of your elite slots. The only time I could see anyone using it would be in Apocalypse games.

 

 

The Chaos Dread has a Right weapon option as TL-AC, and a TL-AC / ML is not a bad combo either. If you want to model one, you can by take a LC and cut it down, then with the ML left arm also cut it down and take a ball point plastic pen and cut it down to match then take another smaler tube pen and do the same to add the little extension off the main barrel. the two will be a bit off in size but not enought to see from a talbe look down perspetive.

 

If anyone is thinking about this dread as a option just proxie it a few times and see if its worth the effort, even a TLLC/TLAC is a nice ranged dread to consider.

 

If for any reason you plan to move the dread up with your troops/mech instead of holding back with the ranged aspect of your list then I agree you should take a TLLC with DCCW. however for the option of having a shooty dread, there really is none better than the TLAC/TLAC option.

 

Vrox

[Keercrevlis]

I ran and probably will continue to run 2 dreads 1-AC & DCCW w/Heavy Flamer And 2-TLAC it worked out great. It does suck if your opponent shows up with FIVE Landraiders, it happened to me in a tourny, but other than that it will shred a horde army and most mech armies hate it because you pretty much make them a footslogging army quick. Transports pop easy and its not that hard to crack Armor 12 either with all those S7 shots.

 

Yes FW is the only way to get them, make sure you get the two that match! Had a fellow gamer add mine to his order and he order the wrong ones so mine do not match.

[LoneSniperSG]

They look amazing, but tacticly garbage.

 

Twin Las Cannons and a missile Launcher will do way more damage and the parts come in the box.

 

 

PS I liove the Rifleman. One of the all time best looking Mechs.

 

Depends on your tactics.

 

We got mixed input here, so let's boil it down. Dual TLAC = Light armor killer. Take it when you want it. I know I can always use extra help mowing down those annoying Eldar.

[Oldenhaller]

Just wondering point for point and gun for gun how a combination of the two would work - TLLC and TLAC rather thaan the classic TLLC and ML? Thinking it'd have the high end punch and also the extra shots over the missile launcher so might work better. That and it'd still look like a rifleman :)

 

~O

[Quillen]

Well if you do the math the TLL and Missile Launcher will kill tanks. The other will be at a disadvantage on busting tanks.

 

Look at a preditor. Front AL 13 So you need to roll a 6 to glance it. Just to glance. Or a 5 or 6 with a missile Launcher. So 1 in 6 to do minor damage to a 1-3 of doing something, and a 1-6 for a kill chance.

 

So a Dread with 2 TL Autos will not kill a Preditor across the way which will kill it. Unless it's a Dakka Pred.

 

As to shooting something in the butt. I have popped Rhinos and Razorbacks with bolt pistols(not now thou). Having someone dumb enough to give you thier ass is not sound military doctrine.

 

"OH yeah they have King Tigers but surely some of them will turn their butts to<KABOOOOOOM!!!!!>..........."

 

If you want a tank killer go Twin Linked Las and a Missile Launcher. Better chances to kill.

 

Better yet, I believe Forge world does 2 twinlinked Las. Pretty sure if you buy it you can use it.

[Spazmonkey]

I think the x2 twin linked ac will be fun to try when the new Nid codex hits the stores....

[King Tiger]

Better yet, I believe Forge world does 2 twinlinked Las. Pretty sure if you buy it you can use it.

if your a dark angel yes.

 

but then dark angels are the only chapter supposed to have mortis dreads with 2 twin-linked autocannons or 2 of whatever, and they don't have it as a codex option, so sod it, just take whatever and use it in friendly games, if GW can't give a toss about fluff, why should we

[Yeti]

I've run the 2xTLAutoCannon a few times and have found it more than worth having. As a space wolf, it's important to be able to control how and when the enemy gets to you ... so your assault units don't get swamped. Taking out enemy transports lets you do that and there isn't a better dread for taking down transports.

 

As for conversions, it's dead easy to do the right arm from the twin lascannon arm. I used some IG autocannons and glued the ammo drums to the side of the arm. The left arm is a little trickier, but is doable from a missile laucher arm. No need to fork out the $$$ for the FW arms, though they do look dead hot!

[Quillen]

Once again we need math.

 

Rhino AL 11. Auto Cannon 2 shots at strength 7. You need to hit and then roll a 4 to glance and a 5 or 6 to get a kill chance. Half your hits do nothing.

Las Cannon strength 9. You need a 2 to glance and a 3 or better for a chance to kill. Add in a missile Launcher with a 3 to glance and a 4 or beter for a chance to kill. Only 1 in 6 does nothing for the Las and 1in 3 for the Missile Launcher.

 

Which is the better option? The math says it hands down. Killing the target is the point and TL Autos can't pull that off.

 

An Assault Cannona and missile launher have as good of a chance, and gives you 5 shots and one of those can be a blast for weak infintry.

 

 

 

The problem is the Auto Cannon in 40k has always been under loved. It should be a 3 shot weapon. Then you would have 6 shots with it and against troops it would be the bomb. Instead it's under strengthed and under rounds per minute. So it can't compete with the other builds. Not enough power and not enough rounds.

 

We were kicking around the idea of a house rule for it, but so many people come over it would be more of a hassel explaing it.

[Grey Mage]

Theres also a difference between mean results and potential results.

 

While the TLLC+ML each have a higher percent of kills against the target, the TLAC has more oppurtunities to do so. Because you cant just add % on top of % until you reach 100. So- the TLAC gives you 4 chances to roll a 4+ against AV 11, while the other only gives you 2 better chances- but still no gaurantees. Thus, for people whos dice tend to roll more than average 1s, or who want more chances on the Damage chart, the TLAC is the way to go.

 

Besides- while the ML may penetrate 16.5% more than the AC, the AC is 22% more likely to hit *on a normal dread*.

 

Wich means- 2 shots hitting on a 3+, rerolling failed to hits gives us- 8/9ths. Rolling to penetrate on each hit is a 5+- giving us 1/3rd. Then, we have a 1/3 chance of killing it- giving us 2/9nths *because we have two shots* or just under a 1 in 4 chance of killing the darn thing with each arm.

 

The ML on the other hand hits on a 3+ *2/3* and then a 4+ to penetrate *1/3* and then a 2/3 chance to kill it *2/9*. Or just under a 1 in 4 chance of killing it- identical to the TLAC.

 

Of course, the math is better on the autocanno if we just want to Damage the enemy at the least-

 

2 shots hitting on a 3+ with TL gives us 8/9nths per shot again, rolling to pen on a 4+ gives us 4/9nths. No shooting is gauranteed with a damage roll against 95%+ of vehicles so for the sake or argument Im ignoring Possessed. That gives us a 88.8_% chance of giving the enemy tank a bad day with one TLAC.

 

ML on the other hand- 1 shot hitting on a 3+, gives us 2/3, and then affecting the enemy model on a 3+ gives us 4/9nths or a 44% chance of affecting the enemy tank. Thats half the probability of keeping the enemy razorback from popping something youd like to keep alive.

 

TLLC- Hits on a 3+ with Rerolls- so we have an 8/9nths again. Rolling to pen on a 2+ gives us *42/54-->* 7/9nths, or a 77.7_% chance of affecting the enemy unit- again, win for the TLAC.

 

THUS a 2x TLAC Dreadnaught is carrying around a 177% chance of affecting the enemy, while a TLLC+ML is carrying a 112% chance.

 

Because kill shots arent everything and statistics have nothing to do with playing this game.

 

EDIT: Against AV 12 each AC shot gives us 8/27, or 16/27ths overall- or about 60%.

Against AV 12 the ML gives us 1/6, or about 17%.

And against AV 12 the TLLC gives us 5/9nths, or about 56%.

 

Wich means the total CoA for a TLAC dread is 120% of doing something to it *ie rolling on the damage chart* while the TLLC+ML gives us a 73% over all.

[Quillen]

It's all about Pen hits. And you chjances of getting them.

 

Once again a Rhino the weakest take you will face. AL 11.

 

Twin Linked Auto and we will assume all shots hit. It is Twinlinked. You have 2 dice that need 4 to glance. A 5 and a 6 to actually kill the thing. And half your shots have done nothing. So out of 2 shots one does nothing and 1 has a chance to glance or Pen.

 

Twin Las, a 2 will glance, 3 will have a chance to kill. And only 1 in 6 of doing nothing.

 

Now you add in the other side. Twin Auto is the same and your looking at a Missile Launcher. Which gives a glancing on a 3, but is not twin linked and does not shoot twice. Still if it hits, and 2 out of 3 do, You glance on a 3 and Pen on a 4 to 6. So a 50% chance to Pen compared to a 1-3 of an auto cannon.

 

 

The auto cannon does not have the umpfffff to get the job done on the weakest tank.

 

Now throw in a Pred and the AutoCannon is sucking mud and doing dick and little. Where the Las Cannon and missile launcher are now way out shining it. I mean way. So why waste the points on a model thay can not kill real threats and only is ok against the weakest tanks, when you can spend the points on one that can frag the weak ones better, and does way better against the largest? See where I am coming from.

 

Looks are cool. I have an LemanRussExterm, but I rarely field it. (can't now) Cause preds are cheaper and give more Dakka for the points. It's about usefulness.

[Grey Mage]

Well the old Exterminator vs the new Predator of course is a no brainer. But I feel your underestimating the TLAC- for the reasons above if you want the math.

 

But frankly, math is a bunch of BS anyways in these situations- There are to many variables we simply cant look at, not to mention personal luck, strategy, etc.

 

And of course battlefield doctrine- mine is that every turn Im not getting shelled back into the stoneage is a good turn- so a higher chance of disabling enemy vehicles is superior to a higher chance of destroying them in one hit.

 

*Shrugs* To each their own.

[MaleOpener]

Never thought of this setup, but it sounds messy ...

 

I really should try it!

 

:P

 

I relay on the AC/DCCW/HB for anti-troop, atm.

[WG Vrox]

Now throw in a Pred and the AutoCannon is sucking mud and doing dick and little. Where the Las Cannon and missile launcher are now way out shining it. I mean way. So why waste the points on a model thay can not kill real threats and only is ok against the weakest tanks, when you can spend the points on one that can frag the weak ones better, and does way better against the largest? See where I am coming from.

 

It comes down to target allocation, its the same thing as shoot the killy stuff and kill the shooty stuff, you have a TLAC/TLAC dread shoot at AV10-11 and you have your TLLC shoot at Preds and Dreads. Don't pay more for what you don't need.

 

Having 1 or 2 TLLC targeting MC/AV12-14/TDA on down to ToO such as bikers... (ToO= Targets of Opportunity/Only targets)

Having 1 Dread with TLAC/TLAC targeting AV 11-10/troops to ToO such as Jetbikes,bikers/horde mobs....

 

Is the TLAC/TLAC the answer to all you AP needs most definitely not, is it by far the Superior weapon to use against light armor, most definitely.

 

Vrox

[Keercrevlis]

OK! With all the math thrown out there to rack your brain on. Here is what my set up was/ is probably going to be again. I used a 2xTLAC Dread for dakka/ light armor/ToO. And used Longfang squad w/ (now) 2xLC 3xML (add WG with CML if you want) for knocking out heavy armor/MonCre's. Also, after the fangs have done their job you can use the ML to drop templates on whatever you need them to.

[Volth]

So why waste the points on a model thay can not kill real threats and only is ok against the weakest tanks, when you can spend the points on one that can frag the weak ones better, and does way better against the largest?

The autocannon is usable against armour, though twin-linked lasercannons are clearly superior. It is also usable against infantry, though heavy bolters do this task usually better. What the autocannon excels in is versatility. You sure could state same about the missile launcher, though it either misses the dakka or the strength an autocannon has. My point is: while it has advantage, doing one task properly, it also has its benefits being capable of several tasks, even if potential is limited. Both has its uses and in the end it is not about which is better, but which fits better ..as a part of a bigger picture.

 

Just my two cents on this.

[King Tiger]

Once again we need math.

no, we never need the chaos theory (which is what mathhammer is) to prove nothing, you cannot bring order (randomness of dice) to something which has and can never have order

[Grey Mage]

Once again we need math.

no, we never need the chaos theory (which is what mathhammer is) to prove nothing, you cannot bring order (randomness of dice) to something which has and can never have order

Agreed. Stats can at best give a guideline, and are far from the gospel alot of people seem to take them as.

[WG Vrox]

Thus I live and roll by my sig.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Once again we need math.

no, we never need the chaos theory (which is what mathhammer is) to prove nothing, you cannot bring order (randomness of dice) to something which has and can never have order

 

You'd be surprised how much modern physics is based on things we can never predict. Probability models are very, very important. In fact they're essential, and the best we'll ever get.

[pchappel]

I love running the twin autocannon, and I also love autocannon and assault cannon.

 

:-) Yes, my current favorite DN to run at the moment... Loads of shots and at least a chance to hurt "whatever" the target is...