Need help my brothers

[Bobman]

I'm going to a tournament next month and taking my trusty Wolves as I always do but came across something unsettling at the weekend.

 

It seems they are going to disallow Wolf Guard to attach to Wolf Scouts who use 'behind enemy lines'.

 

My work blocks loads of web stuff but I'm trying to find their Q&A to confirm this, but I wasn't happy when I read it. I would call on my brother Wolves to gather a decent argument to see if I can change their minds. I don't wanna just cry unfair without a supporting view.

 

So why should Wolf Guard be allowed to lead Wolf Scouts behind enemy lines?

[Iron Man I]

Uh....its in the Space Wolves codex page 86 in the box called "Pack Leaders"

Each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a diffrent pack from the following list: Blood Claws, Swiftclaw bike packs, Grey Hunters, WOLF SCOUTS, Long Fangs.

Wolf Guard in Terminator armour, with jump packs, or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout Units.

So unless they are telling you "Yeah..its in the rules, but we think its cheesy and dont like it so we are not allowing it" they really have no leg to stand on. If Thats thier house rule, thats thier house rule. Sucks yes, but what are you going to do............other than Drop Pod Assaulting Logan and as many Wolf Guard as you can in the middle of the army and saying "Thats how Space Wolves infiltrate." :P

[Forseti]

Unfortunately common sense escapes a lot of people, it was FAQd after the last codex that they could join and OBEL with scouts if they didn't have TDA, it seems they decided to add in the no TDA or Bikes rule but overlooked the OBEL..

 

It's been a while since I did it, but is there still a phoneline for Rule Queries? If there is can try and call them, or visit a GW store and ask there, then you can atleast tell the idiots running the tourney that it's fine.

 

Could always run a WGBL with the Hunter Saga just to spite them if they still refuse. It's not exactly a game-breaking rule..

[The Fenrisian]

I don't see on what basis they can say that. Just show them the WG page where it says that they can join the unit and the page with OBEL on it. It doesn't say anywhere that the squad loses the ability if a WG joins it. It's not like they are ICs, they're just extra guys. Like Forseti said, this thing's been looked at in the past, they should know the drill by now.

 

It just seems that maybe they don't like the idea of someone appearing on their gunline on turn 2.

 

That mentality is just daft imo. 'Oh noes! Your book has something that's good, so we better ban it cause I can't have it.'

 

What's next? No lash for you Chaos! no twin linked meltas for you Vulkan! No Stubborn rule for you Commisars.....

[Iron Man I]

Sounds more like Oh man a unit of scouts AND a Wolf Guard would wreck my stuff, lets pretend I dont see it sence. Which means people are afraid of your list. :P

So do what I saw one ork player do with his fanatics. He placed them out on the table and off to the side. Not in the play area, but in the area where you place your models that have died. At the end none of them appeared from goblin units. When asked if he forgot them (Because everyone was avoiding his HUGE blocks of goblins) he said, "Nope. I put them out because they are my good luck charms." :D :lol: Just do that with your scouts. They will be so afraid of them showing up, they will hamstring themselves better than any wolf scout could do.

With in the rules? Yes.

Shifty? Certainly.

But thats what you get for being narrow minded.

[nurglespuss]

Its basically because, in the last codex, it was open to ehavy abuse in tournaments, so I can see why they would ban it on that basis.

 

Basically what can you realistically do? Its their tournement, and if they don't like the rule, its implication etc. then thats up to them. You can either moan about it, or suck it up, and view it as a tactical challenge. As has been said, its not a game breaker, so that applies to you too, what do the points saved get you? a land speeder? another thunder wolf? that heavy weapon you wanted etc.

[JamesI]

I don't think there is anything that makes it clear that Wold Guard attached to scouts can still OBEL. Hopefully a FAQ comes out before the tournament that solves it.

[Bobman]

Well they are saying that the Wolf Guard doesn't gain the BEL rules, much like an IC. But they are not ICs. As was said before, in the dex is written no TDA, which implies the same as the last book.

 

I just wondered if I could get a good argument then I could persuade them to change their minds.

 

The way they say it the Wolf Guard isn't part of the unit nor an IC. Which would make it complicated for Kill points and things like vehicles. If the Wolf Guard isn't part of the unit or an IC then technically it would be 2 units, so unable to ride in vehicles.

 

Just seems an awkward ruling to me.

[JamesI]

Well, if the book says no TDA for OBEL, that implies guard can OBEL as regular scouts can't get TDA and you can't attach an IC to scouts or they lose infiltrate. The only way the no TDA restriction could apply is if guard can OBEL.

[Bobman]

That's what I say. But prepare to get rogered!!!

 

Someone mentioned a phone line for rules queries so I tried it and yeah Wolf Scouts lose BEL with attached Wolf Guard.

[JamesI]

That's what I say. But prepare to get rogered!!!

 

Someone mentioned a phone line for rules queries so I tried it and yeah Wolf Scouts lose BEL with attached Wolf Guard.

The phone/email rules asking is notoriously inconsistent.

[Iron Man I]

It does say in the rule on page 86 that they (The wolf guard) leave thier pack and join the pack they are leading. Key word there is join. Not attached to, but join I'm sure there are other examples in other armies where an elite type "joins" a unit and gains all the benifits of said unit. I'm sure there is something in orc dex about Nobs joining boyz or something. If you can find that rule where it works for "army A" then it has to work for "army B"

I think I got two good points for you.

1)When a Wolf Guard joins a unit of Blood Claws does he get the bezerker charge ability? No. Why? The entry specificly states a model joining this unit does not get the bezerker charge ability. There is no entry in Wolf Scouts that states "A model joing this unit does not benefit from OBEL"

2)If Wolf Guard are IC, or considered IC, can they leave the unit when they feel like it, like an IC? No. They are part of that unit till the end of the game or they are wiped out.

I think those two points may go a long way to help you.

EDIT: BINGO! Russ's favor smiles upon me. Go here "Can Wolf Guard join Wolf Scouts?" EXCELLENT break down of the rules with page numbers and the such.

[Bobman]

The phone/email rules asking is notoriously inconsistent.

 

Really? I may try again then. Do they give you anything official on the phone line or just 'wait for the FAQ'?

 

Thanks Iron Man, the whole not an IC argument is what I was gonna go with myself, but at the minute GW are saying no so I guess that's it.

[muzzyman1981]

The GW phone thing, they aren't official, they just give their opinions...they are very well versed but they aren't always correct.

 

Here's my confusion...they could do it before but now all of a sudden they can't but they can join the Wolf Scouts....wierd....sounds like BS to me....

[RedMoon]

i have to say they have no leg to stand as it says in the codex they can be attached to the scouts in the first place they arnt IC's they are just sergeants basically........what next are they going to say a wolf guard attached to long fangs cant split fire cause he isnt part of the pack or some BS????? sounds like they had somebody complain about it and they are just nerfing it completely instead of letting the guy just have to deal with it....its just scouts with a marine..its not like abbadon is outflanking sheeeesh.......lol

[nurglespuss]

LOL, well what is there to support WG splitting fire?....

 

Theres nothing to say that the units benefits are passed onto the wolf guard....

 

Thinking about it more, I'm starting to think that perhaps it would be daft, a wolf guard in ower armour trying to be as stealthy and quick as marines in scout armour....

[Stormbrow II]

Thinking about it more, I'm starting to think that perhaps it would be daft, a wolf guard in ower armour trying to be as stealthy and quick as marines in scout armour....

You haven't read the Ragnar Blackmane series of books have you?

 

As others have said it's their tournament so you have to abide by their rules if you go. Saying that it sounds like someone is taking the piss because there is nothing that specifically prohibits a WG in power armour from joining or benefiting from the Wolf Scout rules in the Codex.

[nurglespuss]

You haven't read the Ragnar Blackmane series of books have you?

 

Yep I read em when they first came out :) I liek that interpretation, but its not set in stone.

 

Now back to the topic:

 

Saying that it sounds like someone is taking the piss because there is nothing that specifically prohibits a WG in power armour from joining or benefiting from the Wolf Scout rules in the Codex.

 

Well no one has said they can't join them (rules wise outside the tourney) thats not the issue.

 

However, just as equally, there is nothing to say that the WG 'should/can' benefit from the wolf scout rules either. In essence its a 'non-argument' - no one can say one way or the other.

[DapperDave]

LOL, well what is there to support WG splitting fire?....

 

Well, I can kind of see what you're saying here... except how could WG not "split" their fire?

 

Long Fang group A and the WG fire at target 1.

Long Fang group B fire at target 2.

 

Group A and the WG aren't making use of the split fire rule, group B is. (This would be similar to how the Tau target lock works)

[Grey Mage]

That's what I say. But prepare to get rogered!!!

 

Someone mentioned a phone line for rules queries so I tried it and yeah Wolf Scouts lose BEL with attached Wolf Guard.

The phone/email rules asking is notoriously inconsistent.

Actually, its no longer even supposed to exist. ALL rules queries are supposed to go through their email service.

[Busby]

That big ole breakdown in the link that is eventually provided is great and all, but to me it's laid out simple: Wolf Guard attached to any unit is, in essence, the unit's Sergeant. Like all of the other armies... The Space Wolves just went and got themselves to be special and put all their Sergeants into one awesome elite choice that can then be spread about as we see fit.

 

That's all they are: Upgrades for the squad. A squad leader / Sergeant / Whatever.

[Brother Hadafix]

This is possibly a bit OTT, but maybe worth a shot.

 

Write them an email explaining why their house rule is bogus and CC it the GW for conformation.

 

This may get their goat, but it may also annoy GW to know that someone is nurfing their new shiney codex.

[RedMoon]

lol well i was just talking hypothetically with the long fangs lol people complain and try to do other things like the new argument going around that you can still fire a machine spirt weapon and pop smoke lol i say that since they used to be able too and the new codex didnt state that they could but that they CAN join the unit and that there rule says they cant OBEL with a model in terminator armor and a scout cant were it and the only thing that can would be a wolf guard....... i think its just somebody who is upset with the new codex and instead of trying to beat it with good tactics and good army just said the heck with and nerfed it from there tourney LMAO lol

 

 

ok off my soap box dang i need some Ale lol

[Ullr Direfang]

well.... i am not sure.... i would say yes, based on the last codex. and the fact that they the new codex still says that a WG in TDA, on a bike, or with a jump pack can't join a scout squad.... i would assume that this is so it can OBEL. and they aren't IC, meaning that i believe they become part of the squad that they join.

 

now to be fair to the other side. What qualifies as able to outflank..... IIRC only scouts/infiltrators can... also if the WG picked up the squads abilities, he would get berserk charge from a BC unit.

 

and for who ever it was that was looking for something joining another unit:

Imperial Guard Codex:

Infantry Platoon:

The platoon command squad may be JOINED by a commissar.....

An infantry squad my be JOINED " " " ".....

 

now the only difference i can see with these is that they aren't a separate entry in the 'dex. but they still "become" part of the unit they join. although it states that the commissar bestows his abilities on the squad he joins.

[Grey Mage]

Infiltrate- refers to whole units only.

Move through cover- whole units again.

Scouts- yep, whole units.

Stealth- all of the units models....

 

As opposed to:

Skilled rider - "the rider..."

Furious Charge- "Models with this skill"

Feel no Pain- "If a model with this ability...."

Instant Death- "The model"

 

etc.

 

Since a WG is an upgrade character, NOT an IC, he must follow the appropriate rules for the unit he is with- ie stealth, move through cover, etc as appropriate.

 

Obel- "If a Wolf Scout Unit"

 

He is part of the Wolf Scout Unit once attached. Thus, he can OBEL.

 

This is basic logic here, the WG is part of the squad as an attached model. He can never leave the squad, so during the battle he and the squad must overlap all their rules because of the rules of upgrade characters.

 

Thus, he is covered by any rules that cover squads because his squad as a whole has the rule, while he gets no rules that are model specific because he himself doesnt have it. Simple.