Pooling your Knowledge of DH part1

[wizard12]

Assault is for the boys in the power/terminator armour. NEVER for the Inquisitor. EVER.

 

just for the record, inquisitor lords are in a power armour equivilent (3+ save)

 

here's my...

 

Layout Name:Physic Storm

Equipment and Additional Others: force weapon, consercrated scrolls, BP, 3 familliars, 4 physic powers, rhino.

Use in game: the look on your opponents face when you go "consecrated scrolls, I'll use all 4 of my powers this turn". remember, it never said you can only take a power once (4 scrounging)

[Eddie Orlock]

... remember, it never said you can only take a power once (4 scrounging)

In the fine print at the top of the armoury it states that no model may be given the same item twice.

[silversmith82]

^ What he said.

 

The IL gun retinue I made up is scarily identical to the 2x Sage list that is already on here. 2 Mystics are required at all times for anti DS and the ability to pawn it off on a possibly more capable unit. I take 2 sages to prevent the Plasma Cannon servitor from frying himself. I take 2HB because they also have a 36" range which is identical to the plasma cannon and psycannon so no loss of fire. 3x acolytes for ablative wounds and possibly to throw spare points onto for more firepower or a surprise melta if anything comes in close. 3x Familiars for cheap as hell ablative wounds and that is about it.

 

So yeah

 

=][= with: Psycannon, Hoodie, Auspex, ccw

-Plasma Cannon Servitor, 2HB servitors, 2x Acolytes, 3x Familiars 2x Mystics and 2x Sages. Comes out right around 200 pts which is expensive but pound for pound will rip the crap out of everything. I'm thinking of slapping some sort of nasty CC surprise into the unit in case it ever does get charged. It has more than enough ablative wounds for the =][= to survive to attack even with an I1 weapon.

 

I have not played it yet but I challenge anything to stand up to that sort of firepower and come out ok. And yes the extra sage is well worth it IMO. You roll a 1 and not only do you lose a round of shooting, you probably lose the servitor for the whole game so you lose all rounds of shooting. On a 6 turn game statistically you will roll a 1 once. The sage makes that once every 2 games.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I use the familiar gun line Lord, but I'll reproduce it here with the name already put forward.

 

Layout Name: Deluxe Gunline Lord with Retinue

Equipment and Additional Others: Inquisitor Lord with Psycannon, Thunder Hammer, Auspex. PC Servitor, 2 HB Servitors, 2 Sages, 2 Mystics, 2 Familiars, 2 Acolytes.

Use in game: Deploy in cover, with good line of sight, and commence bombardment.

Effectivity: Very effective. The very accurate PC, combined with multiple ablative wounds, deep strike and infiltration protection gives me a command of one area of the battlefield.

Enjoyability: Quite enjoyable for me, I imagine rather frustrating for my enemy.

 

It is immune to morale, puts out a great deal of anti infantry fire, protects against deep strikers and has 8 wounds (2 mystics/famliars/acolytes + 2 wounds on lord if neccesary) before losing damage output. The Thunder Hammer is not points effective but fun. It's not as good in 5th, as its greatest weakness has always been armour and APCs, which are just everywhere now. However if you get those guys out of their transports watch them wither under fire. With the general speed increase also, I find it good to keep a counter charge unit nearby to punish any assaulters who make it to this squad.

[Brother Swas]

Layout name: Plasma barrage

 

Equipment and additional others: Inquisitor with Plasma Pistol, 3 Veterans with Plasma Guns, 2 Mystics, Rhino

 

Use in game: Not exactly cheap coming in at over 160 points, but it has the potential to take on different unit types. The 2 Mystics combined with potentially 7 strength 7 shots at under 12" is usually more than enough to deal with drop pods. If the enemy drops in slightly more than 12" away, there's always my lr crusader and godhammer lr nearby to deal with them (whichever is in a better position).

 

Why the second mystic? With the amount of plasma in this squad, you probably almost always want to shoot with it. Then again, he's cheap enough I guess. How about one of the plasma guns being upgraded to a plasma cannon? Most deepstriking things aren't vehicles, and will come in in a nice circle for the cannon to hit! :-D

 

 

Layout Name: Thunderhammers, Ho!

Equipment and Additional Others: Inquisitor Lord in Termie armor with ungluents and a Thunderhammer with three Acolytes in artificer armor and one warriors. Up to three more Inquisitors with Termie armor and thunderhammers.

Use in game: Run forward and assault! Individual inquisitors can break off to hit vehicles or join other squads locked in assault.

Effectivity: Don't actually have enough inquisitor models to field. Seems fun though! 13 Thunderhammer attacks in one unit that can split up and hit whatever they need to.

Enjoyability: Would be great. A bunch of crazy Inquisitors running across the field!

[Gibious]

Wizard: I am afraid due to being rather illegal I will not be edeting it to top post. If you do wish to fix it Im sure many onsite can help you.

 

Silver and Red, very interesting Variations of Gunlines. Will see if I can include in top post. I am rather interested that many players insist of giving this unit some sort of CC potential. Does he get assulted often? Also adding that the turns the Plasma does not burn, the sage can guarentee at least another hit with the Psycannon

 

Swas: Interesting point about Plasma Barrage, will update. Have you yet used the thunderhammers ho? The main point of this topic is to provide cold hard knowledge gained by experience from the Veterans to the Newer players, and Visa-Versa.

 

 

-Gib-

[sheisaguy]

Why the second mystic? With the amount of plasma in this squad, you probably almost always want to shoot with it. Then again, he's cheap enough I guess. How about one of the plasma guns being upgraded to a plasma cannon? Most deepstriking things aren't vehicles, and will come in in a nice circle for the cannon to hit! :-D

 

Hmm... you are absolutely right! For some reason, swapping 1 of the plasma gun veteran for a plasma cannon servitor has never crossed my mind!

The 2nd Mystics is there for those weird cases when the enemy deep strikes nearby but out of LoS of the unit (such as on the other side of my land raider), so that the land raider can have a pot shot at it instead.

[silversmith82]

Podding dreads can cause issues for plasma cannons/guns especially ironclads. With 2 mystics you can assign fire to something else though like the local LRC or melta IST squad. Or just add in a multi melta servitor.

 

@Gibious. I have mentioned I have not played this setup yet but I've seen variations played and I'm currenlty re-tooling my existing armies. I'd just be worried about something like genestealers or some other fast unit sch as jump packers getting in too close too fast. I suppose there really isn't anything to do about it except give the =][= a thunderhammer/holocaust and make sure if they look like they're going to be a target to keep the GKT handy.

[deepstrike]

No fancy pants names for me! :P

 

Elite Inquisitor, multi-melta servitor, two mystics, Rhino or Chimera

 

This is a cheap and effective dual-purpose unit: deep-strike defense and firebase/bunker. Keep near land raider crusaders to take maximum advantage of the mystics. Otherwise park in midfield and attack armour, MCs, and infantry.

 

Points can be poured into this build (e.g., make into an I-lord and give a psychic hood as well, add a psycannon to the Inquisitor, maybe add more gun servitors or vet guardsmen), but mostly there's no need to. Those points should probably be splashed around the rest of your army instead.

bout the same as mine but I have an extra MM servitor. and use a inquisitor lord there is no real reason to give this squad much else. but lookling at using it in a rhino then one multi melta woould work better. Only problem with that is the rhino becomes open topped

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I'm surprised that there is no-one who uses an Assaulty Inq.

Assault is for the boys in the power/terminator armour. NEVER for the Inquisitor. EVER.

Layout Name: Rodney Dangerfield (Because he gets no RESPECT!)

Equipment and Additional Others: (615): Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord: Equipment: Master-crafted Force weapon, Storm shield, Consecrated scrolls, Purity seals, Terminator armour, Urguents of warding. Psychic Powers: Holocaust, Sanctuary, Scourging. Retinue x10: 2x Familiar, 3x Acolyte (Storm shield+ Krak grenades, Combi-flamer, Storm bolter), 3x Warrior (flamer, melta gun, power fist), 2x Mystic. Transport: Land Raider Prometheus: Storm bolter.

Effectivity: 1* (I think it is closer to 5 but im sure i will get shouted down. No point in trying to convince people that it can work so to get ahead of the mob ill give it a 1 so people don't try to tear me a new one.... AGAIN.

Enjoyability: 10. Ive taken the heads of Terminator CSM Lords, to Carnafax's. Taking a unit that no one expects to do anything and winning a tournament with it, can not be out done.

Use in game:"If you want something done right, you got to do it yourself." The first two turns of the game i try and keep the unit in or close to its Land Raider if there is a chance of deep strike (2x Mystic.). Moving it forward 6' so it can fire all of its weapons and getting it in position to charge and release the Retinue on a choice target. I have a wide range of assault type weapons to use, making this unit flexible enough to deal with tanks or hoards. After the assault the units begins to go away quickly as planned, transforming into a Tar-pit. Only the =][= is important to keep alive to use a seemingly discounted ability, Iron Will. Playing the wound "shell game" can guarantee he lives through 2 full rounds of combat against pretty much anything (Terminator armour, Storm shield, Urguents of warding, 3x Acolyte (Storm shield..)). I view the retinue as just extra ablative wounds for the =][=. If they help out some how with their wargear or abilities, all the better while the Lord is Spamming Holocaust, and hoping for the chance to take a Soul with the MC Force sword. The Assault Ramp on a Land Raider and the Terminator base on the =][= gives this unit a 21.5 inch assault range. Units with toughness 7+ give this unit a bit of trouble, the Melta-gun and power fist are no guarantee of success, though at least i have a shot. What Retinue you use for the assault portion is up for grabs, Flamers like talked about before or maybe more power fists can work better in situations. I just like being ready for what ever i face. Plans falling apart after first contact en all.

 

About the Transport. The ability to take a Land Raider as a dedicated Transport is Very powerful. you are sure to have it on Turn 1 in any game and it is the best Transport in the game so to not take it to me is a fail. The Phobos pattern LR is very nice at most things and if that is your only option it is ok but i really like my Prometheus. When i use a Phobos as transport i am always second guessing weather i should keep it on the move to get the =][= in position or remain stationary to use its full fire power. Also the Phobos is a known threat and high on anyone's list of targets. The sting of the Godhammer Las-cannons are burned in everyone mind. When i got my Prometheus i found that many of my problems went away. You can move it 6'" and not reduce it fire power. Most people when given a option of shooting at a Prometheus or a different Pattern LR ( Crusader, Phobos) will choose the latter. I try my best to give them that option, and it works best when the other LR is behind the Prometheus taking cover from it. Like the unit name the Phobos's quad, twin-linked, Heavy bolters gets no respect. 12 BS4 shots re-rolling misses, str 5, ap 4, Range 36", will take a squad at a time and move them to the hurt locker. Orks, Eldar, IG, Tau, Nids, out in the open get turned into mist.

 

Use in game: the look on your opponents face when you go "consecrated scrolls, I'll use all 4 of my powers this turn". remember, it never said you can only take a power once (4 scrounging)

You might not be able to shoot 4 times but this is not a total loss. You can as i have above give your self 3 different psyker abilities to use in the same turn. Scourging, Force Sword, Holocaust.

[silversmith82]

You don't get to buy wargear for Warriors that isn't in the Warriors listing. No power fists, no storm shields etc... Also Acolytes can only have 15 pts of wargear each. The Malleus Inquisitor's retinue isn't really able to be built for assault. The Hereticus Inquisitor, on the other hand, is with the ability to take Crusaders.

[sheisaguy]

@ Lord Lorne Walkier

 

Unless you're using IA Land Raider rules for Inquisitors, otherwise a dedicated Land Raider transport for the Inquisitor is neither an assault vehicle nor does it have Power of the Machine Spirit.

 

IMO, the daemonhunters FAQ by GW was very specific in it's wording which is:

A Grey Knight Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader has the following special rules:

in which case it specifically refers to the Land Raiders in our Heavy Support section that are named in that manner.

[Lungboy]

You don't get to buy wargear for Warriors that isn't in the Warriors listing. No power fists, no storm shields etc... Also Acolytes can only have 10 pts of wargear each.

 

Acolytes can have 15pts of wargear i think. If you're using them for ablative wounds in cc then surely giving them Artificer armour would be best.

[silversmith82]

Edit, yes it is 15. Still not enough for a power fist or the loadouts suggested. Unless he's just suggesting that users pick just 1. Still, only good assaulty thing they can take for 15 pts is a power weapon and that maxes them out. Not to mention that if you are going to play DH and ESPECIALLY assault, you really need to use the Crusaders. As mentioned, the GW FAQ RAW does not give potm to dedicated =][= Land Raiders.

 

Correct Assaulty Inquisitor:

 

Allied Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Lord

MC Force Weapon, Hood, Hammerhand, Rosarius, Inferno Pistol

-Retinue: 3 Crusaders, 3 Acolytes w/power weapons, 2 Chirurgeons, 1 Sage, 3 Familiars (ablative wounds)

Put in a GK Crusader OR an inducted Space Marine Land Raider

 

Never used this, probably never will although the crusader model is the pwn and would make a great =][= model in its own right. Same tactics as any other mounted assaulty unit really. I just can't see spending the points on an assaulty Inquisitor ever when both =][= armies have way better/cheaper choices available. Although 7 power weapons is nice... S3 ftl though...

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

@ Lord Lorne Walkier

 

Unless you're using IA Land Raider rules for Inquisitors, otherwise a dedicated Land Raider transport for the Inquisitor is neither an assault vehicle nor does it have Power of the Machine Spirit.

 

IMO, the daemonhunters FAQ by GW was very specific in it's wording which is:

A Grey Knight Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader has the following special rules:

in which case it specifically refers to the Land Raiders in our Heavy Support section that are named in that manner.

Yes, I said i am using a Prometheus, they come from IA. Also when i say more power fists i mean Combat servitors.

[Red Lost Soldier]

My Lord does get assaulted a lot, and usually wiped. That hammer just looks too good and Inquisitors are simply the coolest characters in the 40k 'verse, feel bad not giving him one. Most of my list is fine tuned, but I like to splash out here and there, it's a non verbal thing in my group. Never seen Nob Bikers and only played one Lash list.

[silversmith82]

When I do my gunline lord, I am always going to have a unit around to cover him if I can. A nearby mini-purgation squad would be ideal. I'd say put combi flamers on the acolytes... but probably never get to use them as anything assaulting you is going to move and then assault before you have a chance to fire them... Combi plasma for deep strikers would be cool though... Best thing to do is give the =][= holocaust and hammerhand/thunder/daemonhammer.

 

The issue with making a Malleus Inquisitor assaulty is that there are SO many better options in the DH army for assault and the Malleus Inquisitor really REALLY shines because of the mystics. Just about every serious SM player these days has at least a podding melta dread.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The issue with making a Malleus Inquisitor assaulty is that there are SO many better options in the DH army for assault and the Malleus Inquisitor really REALLY shines because of the mystics. Just about every serious SM player these days has at least a podding melta dread.

I agree that there are better assault units. Also one of the best things about the =][= Lord is his Mystics. The Rodney Dangerfield build i have proposed, and use, dose have two Mystics, and i try and make sure they are around when they are called on. The point is not that there are better assault units, it is weather the unit can be used effectively as a assault unit. The Rodney Dangerfield build does much more then just Assault though. I use it to contest objectives, kill deep strikers, Draw fire from other units like Scoring Tactical and as a tar pit to slow enemy forces. I will say it again, maybe some one will agree/ disagree with me this time. IRON WILL is one of the most powerful abilities a =][= Lord has an is wasted on the Gun line.

[silversmith82]

No it isn't his Iron will means that his retinue won't run if it gets shot up and will keep on shooting until they are wiped to the last. They become a firebase that is really really hard to dislodge. It is differing opinions yes, if you want to use the =][= as an assault unit then by all means go for it. Like...what would you charge with it? I'd say a basic 10 man tac squad would wipe the Inquisitor and his retinue out easy in 1 or 2 rounds of combat max. Shooty inquisitor with 36" range in cover can really cause havoc.

[Gibious]

Knowing that there IS a lot of hunter units out there (DS Lictors, Flanking Kroots etc) I guess a slight defence against assault may be a worthy investment.

 

Like HammerHand and a Familar, to deliver high S before the opponent can get at your fleshy retuine.

 

OR

 

Use the retuine as a meat shield to keep the Inq so he can deviler a heavy Hammer last.

 

Anyone have any experience to comment on this?

 

-Gib-

[f.desrochers]

Knowing that there IS a lot of hunter units out there (DS Lictors, Flanking Kroots etc) I guess a slight defence against assault may be a worthy investment.

 

Like HammerHand and a Familar, to deliver high S before the opponent can get at your fleshy retuine.

 

OR

 

Use the retuine as a meat shield to keep the Inq so he can deviler a heavy Hammer last.

 

Anyone have any experience to comment on this?

 

I've had little to no issue with 'hunter' units. My DH IL's mystics and an auspex (handy, for 2 points) keep the enemy kosher on those counts. I've had the Lictor pop int he terrain my IL was set-up in. Ironically it states they arrive using Deep Strike rules, or some such (it's been a while, so it may have been the auspex), and the free round of shooting took care of things. Never had a problem with Outflanking Kroot either, but they had other units to chase after. <shrug>

 

This all said, I've typically got a unit og Storm Troopers, PAGK or a Dreadnaught nearby to disuade any thoughts of heading straight into the IL. Since he often gets a Null Rod, I couldn't say how well Hammerhand or Holocaust would work just prior to combat resolution. The thought leaves me wondering if it isn't a misdirection of points though. They can't fight in CC worth the paper the list is printed on compared to the GK options - any of them.

 

;francois

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

No it isn't his Iron will means that his retinue won't run if it gets shot up and will keep on shooting until they are wiped to the last. They become a firebase that is really really hard to dislodge. It is differing opinions yes, if you want to use the =][= as an assault unit then by all means go for it. Like...what would you charge with it? I'd say a basic 10 man tac squad would wipe the Inquisitor and his retinue out easy in 1 or 2 rounds of combat max. Shooty inquisitor with 36" range in cover can really cause havoc.

It Is a waste because the chance of you failing a moral test at ld 10 is minimal. In a assault you take a ld penalty for how much you lost the fight by. What is really wasted is the difference between Iron Will ans Fearless. The penalty for automatically passing the test do to shooting is nothing, wile in and assault you take wounds based on the difference in the combat result. When in a assault my opponent counts on the extra wounds they will inflict on the unit once they win the assault. When they are shown that no extra wounds will be handed out it messes up their strategy. Also with Iron Will you can choose to fail. Some times it is to your benefit to run from a fight, like if you are fighting a unit that cant follow you like Terminators and your turn is next so you will be able to shoot at them. If you are only using Iron will to make you "Fearless" against shooting attack then you are wasting the full value of Iron Will

[- 7eAL -]

After getting the +1 BS for the IL, the second would only provide a re-roll, which might get thrown in there with some spare, stray points. Otherwise I never found it necessary.

Interesting POV there. Anyone able to mathammer the sage re-roll?

A little bit late, but here:

WITHOUT SAGES

to-hit = (BS 4)

to-hit = 4/6

to-hit = 66.6~%

 

WITH 1 SAGE

to-hit = (BS 4) + (BS 1)

to-hit = BS 5

to-hit = 5/6

to-hit = 83.3~%

 

Increase = 83.3~ - 66.6~

Increase = +16.6~%

 

WITH 2 SAGES

to-hit = (BS 4) + (BS 1) + (reroll)

to-hit = BS 5 + (BS 5 reroll)

to-hit = 5/6 + ((1/6) x (5/6))

to-hit = 5/6 + (5/36)

to-hit = 83.3~% + 13.9~%

to-hit = 97.2~%

 

Increase = 97.2~ - 66.6~

Increase = 30.5~%

 

Since the second sage only provides one reroll, it means only one shot at 97% accuracy. The increase is not significant for the Inquisitor either, because +1 BS provides a greater relative bonus to accuracy than the reroll alone.

 

However, the reroll makes a far more significant impact to a warrior henchman with some sort of gun:

WITHOUT SAGES

to-hit = (BS 4)

to-hit = 4/6

to-hit = 66.6~%

 

WITH 2 SAGES

to-hit = (BS 4) + (BS 4 reroll)

to-hit = 4/6 + ((2/6) x (4/6))

to-hit = 4/6 + (8/36)

to-hit = 66.6~% + 22.2~%

to-hit = 88.8~%

 

The increase in accuracy alone is much greater, not counting the value that may be applied to rerolling any Gets Hot results due to plasma.

[Eddie Orlock]

7eal, your math is very misleading to the unwary masses. When determining the value of the second sage, you're not looking for the chance to miss on one shot, your looking for the chance that there'll be a miss somewhere in the entire volley.

 

Oh if only I'd paid attention to this thread earlier today, I could have done it up with charts like I did the assaultcannon-lascannon things. That brand of simplified analysis mathammer gets to me when no mentions are made of its implicit assumptions.

[Red Lost Soldier]

The best value of the 2nd sage is when packing a plasma cannon. Not only can you avoid a "Gets Hot!" but you can also reroll the scatter dice if you shoot off target. Page 30 of the rulebook. Very handy, particularly against deep striking infantry.