Polaris Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I want to hear your take on this. After skimming through the DeamonHunters codex I have found MAJOR discrepancies in the practices of the Inquisition. All Grey Knights are Psykers, who draw power from the warp. How is this any different from creating a Demon host, whom also draw power from the warp? Is not the main purpose of Witch Hunters seek out psykers and destroy them? The inquisition employs Tech-priests ( at least in "lore" ) who worship the "machine god". Multiple infractions here. 1) They are worshiping a god other the the emperor. 2) Isnt the "machine god" a C'tan god? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 By the same token you could call the Emperor a heretic for being a psyker. His psychic might keeps the Daemons at bay. In my opinion the Grey Knights learn that their power is both a curse and a gift. However if you read the codex not one Grey Knight has fallen to the lure of Chaos so they must be doing something right. And you need Techmarines to make your kit work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Being a Psyker and practicing Sorcery are two different things. The Conclave of umm.. Nekia? The one where Magnus got all in trouble and such :) Anyway, they decided the distinction which is still practiced in the Imperium to modern times. The Witch Hunters hunt down the Witches, the Unsanctioned Pyskers who are NOT approved and licensed by the Imperium. Naturally they do not hunt down all Space Marine Librarians, the Novis Nabillitaum... uh.. the Navigators, Astropaths, etc. (I apologize, I'm really not up on my Imperium names in Latin today) The distinction of super-radials/ultra-puritans deciding that the Emperor himself being a psyker line of reasoning is pointed out in the Witch Hunters Codex, and the vast majority of the Inquisition also being psykers.. well.. it's only a small few that really miss the boat that much. Generally speaking though, the Grey Knights are psykers, who are sanctioned, and thus fine. Sorcerors are right out, and creating Daemonhosts is Sorcery of the foulest degree, ergo Heretical and Diabolus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard12 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 the grey knight physic powers are what make them able to resist the daemons and sights which would drive even Marnus Calgar insane. from my knowleage, the tech priest worship the omishia [machine god] (spelling?) who, when asked about the emperor, they reply is the emperor. basicly 2 gods in 1 to them, get what I mean? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 The Machine-God is one of the allowed variations of the Imperial Cult (in the same league as Space Marines, the Promethian Cult of the Salamanders, etc), and is allowed by the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. They are, of course, under Inquisitorial scrutiny, much like the other 'allowed' organizations and are on official watch lists ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 There are certain factions amongst the Mechanicus that view the Emperor as a manifestation of the Omnisiah, and that thus, the two are one and the same. Inquisitors accusing each other is a significant portion of the premise behind the game Inquisitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drahazar Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 yes the Machine god is a Ctan they just don't know it yet. I believe its the Deciever too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Personally based on clues in Dawn of War: The Dark Crusade, as well as stuff in the various 40K fluff I've read, I theorize that the C'Tan of 'The Dragon' is actually located on Mars. If this is true or not, I've no idea, nor is it confirmed or denied anywhere. It's quite possible but there's no hard evidence I've seen anywhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 It's been made pretty obvious to be honest, the Nightbringer and the Deceiver are out there killing things, the Dragon is on Mars and the Outsider (or whatever his name is) is stuck in that big metal ball in space that the 'nids avoided. If they ever reveal it to be any different to that, I'll eat my hat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2164782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I want to hear your take on this. After skimming through the DeamonHunters codex I have found MAJOR discrepancies in the practices of the Inquisition. All Grey Knights are Psykers, who draw power from the warp. How is this any different from creating a Demon host, whom also draw power from the warp? Is not the main purpose of Witch Hunters seek out psykers and destroy them? The inquisition employs Tech-priests ( at least in "lore" ) who worship the "machine god". Multiple infractions here. 1) They are worshiping a god other the the emperor. 2) Isnt the "machine god" a C'tan god? The Inquisition itself has many sub-factions (I can name 4 off the top of my head, which proves that I don't have a life :) ) and each Ordo of the =][= has it's own variations of these factions, though Inquisitors of different Ordos share similar views within the factions. Individual Inquisitors will have very different views from each other. So one Inquisitor may create a Daemonhost, and another one (from the same Ordo even) will seek to destroy the creature. This also happens with their relationship with the Grey Knights, where some Inquisitors want their help, others may think of them as the same abominations that the Inquisitor strives to destroy utterly. This may also happen with their association with the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you want more, I would suggest reading the fluff from Inquisitor, and maybe even trying a game or two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2165016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 This also happens with their relationship with the Grey Knights, where some Inquisitors want their help, others may think of them as the same abominations that the Inquisitor strives to destroy utterly. This may also happen with their association with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Either one of those positions would be fairly unusual and extreme though; all but the most insane of Puritans realize that without Psykers and the Adeptus Mechanicus the Imperium would fall apart. Navigators and Astropaths are the glue that holds the Imperium together, and even if the Tech-Priests are more than a little odd and creepy they're the only ones with the knowledge to build, repair, and maintain the industrial and military might of the Imperium. Given the Grey Knights' status as the only part of the Imperium military that can truly be said to be incorruptable, it would be rather strange to insist that they could not be trusted. That's not to say that an Inquisitor who hates the GKs and Mechanicus is impossible, just that their position would be viewed as very unusual and very extreme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 This also happens with their relationship with the Grey Knights, where some Inquisitors want their help, others may think of them as the same abominations that the Inquisitor strives to destroy utterly. This may also happen with their association with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Either one of those positions would be fairly unusual and extreme though; all but the most insane of Puritans realize that without Psykers and the Adeptus Mechanicus the Imperium would fall apart. Navigators and Astropaths are the glue that holds the Imperium together, and even if the Tech-Priests are more than a little odd and creepy they're the only ones with the knowledge to build, repair, and maintain the industrial and military might of the Imperium. Given the Grey Knights' status as the only part of the Imperium military that can truly be said to be incorruptable, it would be rather strange to insist that they could not be trusted. That's not to say that an Inquisitor who hates the GKs and Mechanicus is impossible, just that their position would be viewed as very unusual and very extreme. I think it is extreme, but not unusual. From page 7 of the Inquisitor Living Rulebook: (about the Monodominant faction) The Monodominants have a simply goal: to destroy forever the Emperor’s enemies. Monodominants have absolutely no tolerance for any kind of wayward behaviour. There is no excuse for heresy, contemplating heresy or for abetting heretics. Heresy includes mutation, religious deviation, aliens, psykers and any other beings who do not conform to their view of the loyal Imperial servant. There is only one punishment for heresy in the Monodominant philosophy – death. However, from the same page, supporting your argument: Inquisitors who believe in the incorporation of alien technology and warp artefacts, and other supposedly heretical notions, consider the Monodominants to be crippling themselves by their refusal to make use of such tools. In the Inquisition there are many different views and positions on every topic. As the title says, yes, by their definition the Inquisition are heretics, but there are many different sub-factions within the =][=. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Monodominants would definately fall under the category of "the most insane of Puritans" that I mentioned earlier. Even then, most Monodominants realize that, as a practical matter, they have to work with both psykers (Astropaths) and mutant psykers (Navigators) if they want to have the slightest chance of actually being effective inquisitors. Considering the fact that interstellar travel and communication are impossible without using psykers an Inquisitor who refuses to associate with any psykers in any capacity isn't going to get anything done. A Monodominant would hate that psykers were needed for the survival of the Imperium and the performance of their duties, and would make every possible effort to minimize or remove their use of psykers, but the basic job requirements of being an Inquisitor require using psykers in some capacities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I was under the impression that the imperium allowed the worship of other gods as manefestations of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I was under the impression that the imperium allowed the worship of other gods as manefestations of the Emperor. As I understand it, they essentially allow anything that can reasonably be interpreted as worshipping the Emperor. So long as there doesn't appear to be any Chaos/Xeno/Other influences on the local religious practices and the religion support the rule of the Imperium the Ecclesiarchy is fairly tolerant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Monodominants would definately fall under the category of "the most insane of Puritans" that I mentioned earlier. Even then, most Monodominants realize that, as a practical matter, they have to work with both psykers (Astropaths) and mutant psykers (Navigators) if they want to have the slightest chance of actually being effective inquisitors. Considering the fact that interstellar travel and communication are impossible without using psykers an Inquisitor who refuses to associate with any psykers in any capacity isn't going to get anything done. A Monodominant would hate that psykers were needed for the survival of the Imperium and the performance of their duties, and would make every possible effort to minimize or remove their use of psykers, but the basic job requirements of being an Inquisitor require using psykers in some capacities. This is true. I would imagine that most Monodominants either work in a single star system/planet (no need for direct use of Astropaths and Navigators), or, like the Black Templars, they only use ones that have been sanctified and approved by other organizations. As for worship of other deities as aspects of the emperor, a lot of it depends on whether there is a SM chapter on the world, and in what part of the galaxy the people are in. I would imagine that the Ecclesiarchy is much less in control near the eastern fringe, far from Terra, than near Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2167761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 This is true. I would imagine that most Monodominants either work in a single star system/planet (no need for direct use of Astropaths and Navigators), or, like the Black Templars, they only use ones that have been sanctified and approved by other organizations. Only working with sanctioned Navigators/Astropaths and avoiding all other psyker contact as much as can practically be done would make more sense than an Inquisitor who is effectively immobile and incommunicado. I'd also imagine such an Inquisitor might be constantly on the lookout for any way to make Astropaths and Navigators obsolete. As for worship of other deities as aspects of the emperor, a lot of it depends on whether there is a SM chapter on the world, and in what part of the galaxy the people are in. I would imagine that the Ecclesiarchy is much less in control near the eastern fringe, far from Terra, than near Terra. How much variation within the Imperial Cult is acceptable probably has more to do with the nature of the Ecclesiarchy on that world than actual physical proximity to Terra; after all with the way warp travel and communication work physical distance is only loosely related to the time it takes for ships/messages from Terra to reach a planet. As a matter of simple necessity the Imperium is fairly decentralized, so different officials on different planets will have different policies. IIRC, the general rule is any religion with a reasonble Emperor-figure works, so long as the religion is free of any non-Imperium influences. Polytheistic religions usually get re-interpreted with the other gods as various Primarchs/Saints/Heroes of the Imperium, and the Emperor as the top God. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2168059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narthecium Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Sanctioned psykers are fine -- they have proven that they have the mental strength to resist the lure of Chaos (mostly). In the Grey Knights case this is doubly true as not one of them has fallen. The Omnissiah is viewed as another version of the Emperor -- much like the holy trinity in Christian religion, the Omnissiah is just another "aspect" of the Emperor. It is allowed (although not altogether accepted by everyone) because the mechanicum in general does not follow Chaos and their technology is required for the Imperium to continue to exist. When the Imperium encounters a new world, they look at the religion present there and deem whether it is within acceptable bounds, outside of acceptable bounds, or heresy. If it's heresy, they burn them all. If it's outside acceptable bounds, I imagine they would attempt to convert and then burn those who would not convert. If it's within acceptable bounds they simply manipulate the key figureheads of the religion to more closely resemble their Emperor, and then go about their business. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2168786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Only the staunchest of monodominants would be aposed to Astropaths and Navigators (I was under the impression the Navigators weren't neccissarilly pykers, that they could be but that the navigator gene was more complicated than that. Astropaths work through the Emperor through the soul binding, thus they are tools of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2168802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Only the staunchest of monodominants would be aposed to Astropaths and Navigators (I was under the impression the Navigators weren't neccissarilly pykers, that they could be but that the navigator gene was more complicated than that. Astropaths work through the Emperor through the soul binding, thus they are tools of him. The Monodominants are the strictest of the puritian factions. An Inquisitor that did not oppose Astropaths and Navigators would not be a Monodominant, he/she would most likley be either Thorian or Amalathian. (or radical) Navigators are not psykers, but they are mutants and they can "see" the Warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2168861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 The Amalatian ideals make most sense. rereading I'll agree with you, monodominants are boring to me so I'd sort of forgotten. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2168927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 The Amalatian ideals make most sense. Personally I see the Amalathians desire to keep the Imperium unchanged in the hope that the Emperor's grand plan will come to pass as foolish and far from being in the best interests of mankind. The Imperium has many flaws and is seriously in need of reform, so I'd say that the Recongregator ideals much more sense. After all, the Recongregators are only really considered 'radical' because their plans oppose the status quo of the Imperium*. * And because of the rather extreme lengths to which some members of the faction are prepared to go, but the same could be said of any faction - even the Amalathians have members who take their beliefs to dangerous extremes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2169484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 (in deference to a much loved and much missed thread sometime ago called Inquisitorial rollcall or similar this post will be 'in charactor' of avowedly Monodominant Inquisitor O'Dorihan of the Ordo Herecticus) Brothers, have we not seen time and time again that that which is touched by the Warp leads only to Heresy, war and calamity in His holy domain? Yes the 'sanctioned' Astropath has passed the tests imposed by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica but they are still tainted by their soul's exposure to the Warp. We have all seen them; weak and craven creatures, sunken of eye, pale and sickly. Has it not been shown that corruption of the soul manifests as corruption of the body? When such feeble beings let slip their willpower the legions of the Enemy spill forth into His holy domain. The witch must be constantly tested by members of His most Holy Minstorum and it's soul shrived and purifed if the 'sanctioned' witch has but the merest hope of staying within His light. Let not the convience of of interstellar communication blind you and lead us all into Damnation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2170699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 The problem with monodominant thinking is that if they were to enforce their viewpoints then the Imperium would collapse immediately and Chaos would rule in its place. Not to mention that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker ever to exist and he sure as hell wasn't tainted or sickly etc... Obvsiously these counter arguements are pointed out all the time and the ultra monodominants will never get their way. Hell they are radicals in their own right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2171589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 The problem with monodominant thinking is that if they were to enforce their viewpoints then the Imperium would collapse immediately and Chaos would rule in its place. Not to mention that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker ever to exist and he sure as hell wasn't tainted or sickly etc... Obvsiously these counter arguements are pointed out all the time and the ultra monodominants will never get their way. Hell they are radicals in their own right. That's a fairly good point; the Monodominants have taken the Puritan position to such an extreme that they've essentially become Radicals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182973-grey-knights-and-inquisition-are-heretics/#findComment-2171769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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