Daeghrefn Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey everyone! First post on B&C, was hoping to get some advice. In my local area people have as much, if not more, respect for a good story and paint job than winning games. With this in mind I have decided to branch out a bit into Chaos! I was inspired by the .pdf BellofLostSouls did on the Badab war, and their very interesting take on the fall of the Astral Claws. I would like to attempt to portray them very shortly after entering the maelstrom - probably no daemonic style troops, probably no cult troops, and no crazy war machines (like the defiler, even though it's my fav chaos unit). Some people have said that cult troops are the primary strength of chaos lists. Am I completely hosed tactically, to use primarily standard CSM and war machines? Essentially I'm trying to stick to units that the loyalists and chaos have in common, which may have been carried over by the Red Corsairs as they fled. Even if it won't work well tactically it's been a blast converting chaos units with loyalist bits. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Some people have said that cult troops are the primary strength of chaos lists. Am I completely hosed tactically, to use primarily standard CSM and war machines? Essentially I'm trying to stick to units that the loyalists and chaos have in common, which may have been carried over by the Red Corsairs as they fled. Those people are correct, Chaos has excellent troop choices, even if you don't use the Cult units. An army based on Rhino squads of CSMs will be a solid contender, regardless of what else you put in there. Since you want to minimize the amount of daemonic stuff, I'd just load up on Terminators, Predators and Land Raiders and you'll have a fluffy competitive army. You could use Huron as he's pretty useful all things considered or go with a normal Lord or Sorcerer. I'd probably do a Warptime Sorcerer as thats a dangerous opponent who doesn't use anything daemonic (like a Daemon Weapon). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeghrefn Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 Thanks for the input! You are absolutely right about the warptime sorcerer. I did a small game last night with a friend and the sorcerer was the best non-named combat character I've ever used. I'm waffling between 5 or ten man squads, and whether to use heavy weapons or stick to plasma guns and pistols for my CSM groups. Is it important to have a champion? If so he probably needs a power fist, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I'm waffling between 5 or ten man squads, and whether to use heavy weapons or stick to plasma guns and pistols for my CSM groups. Is it important to have a champion? If so he probably needs a power fist, right? Thats easy. 10 man squads always, 2 special weapons (Flamer/Flamer, Flamer/Melta, Melta/Melta or Plasma/Plasma), leave the heavy weapon at home, Power Fist Champions are mandatory buys with Melta squads as you'll be hunting tanks and good buys for every other squad. The squad that needs it the least is probably Plasma/Plasma since you'll be rapid firing, not assaulting most of the time. My personal favorite is the "jack of all trades" CSM squad. 10 CSMs, Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist Champion, Icon of Chaos Glory and a Rhino for 250 points. With this squad, I'm able to engage anything from an Ork horde to a Wraithlord and stand a fair chance of winning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 And don't take Plasma Pistols. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 And don't take Plasma Pistols. True, if you want that extra Plasma shot, take a Combi-Plasma. Its cheaper and better. The only time I could justify seeing any Plasma Pistols in a Chaos army is with Berserkers and thats only because they can't take anything else and it does give them a little bit of ranged anti-tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Am I completely hosed tactically, to use primarily standard CSM and war machines? No way, reg IoCG csm are very good troops. Very versitle, good shooting (12"-) and good hth, relatitively cheap. I run all reg csm (and no mark characters), no cult troops, all the time and I do well. You often end up out numbering other MEQ armies with troops that are better or at least more versitle then theirs. 5 man squads- never, 10 man always. hvy weops- never, specials only, in the combo's that minigun sz. PF champ is pretty much mandatory, as minigun sz, the exception is dual plaz, they can get along pretty well w/out champ b/c rapidfire is their speciality. Rino's always (I think x-armor is well worth it, others will disagree), again the exception is dual plaz. I've been taking 1 dual plaz (no champ, no rino) every game lately and they always do more then their pts cost. They can claim close to home objective and fire 24" or run behind rino until they w/in 12" then rapid fire. (didn't mean for my post to turn into an endorsement of dual plaz- no champ, no rino squads :) ) forget the plaz pistol, just not worth the 15 pts, that would pay for x armor on the rino, or get a combiweop for 5 pts less (I personally don't think that's worth it eather, possible exception being a combiflame in a 2 melta squad) Welcome to chaos and the B&C. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2164923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Though there may be some people who will tell you that Chaos without cult units and "leash" daemon princes is not playable, I personanlly have done well and had fun playing all undivided (i.e. no cults) and with a Lord or Sorcerer as my HQ. Give it a try. Even regular Chaos Marines are very powerful, thanks to the extra attack in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2165301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Lord Dred Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Regular CSM are still awesome, especially since you get 3 for every 2 cult troops. Pretty much what everyone else said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 One thing I'd contest is if having non cult troops is fluffy or not. As a follower of the RC's I think this is hogwash. I see Huron recruiting all sorts of folks and not just loyalist. Disgruntled Chaos warbands from other legions renegade chapters would be fair game. Plus, who is to say you can't have some non cult marines who have reached the power levels of the cults in their own way (counts as). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Not like Malal, specialist disbanded legio's that differs in view to their warmaster and/or still adheres to Horus' clone that was slain, (etc etc) wouldn't mind joining. Can take from anywhere. Chaos whispers to all kinds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGates Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, you can take cult troops and always say they are marines on the path of that god. IE, Storm of Iron, the Iron Warrior berserkers. They just are not fully there, but they are gaining the benefits of that god because they are on that path. That is what I intended on doing if I ever got around to making my Word Bearers army, that way I can switch out models with banners/differing shoulder gaurds on a whim, so I can try out all the legions without having legion specific models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepstrike Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Dont be so quick in ignoring a 5 strong CSM squad. One squad in a rhino can provide a useful objective taker squad. One melta which can fire out of the top hatch. Give the squad mark of chaos glory and you have a good place to warp in daemons or oblits. Cheap and mechanized with tank killing and close combat ability. A two for one deal points wise. You never have to get out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 it cant shot well . 2 melta or one flamer is not good enough to counter tank/transports or normal sized squads , a single melta does not make a csm squad an anti tank or anti meq unit . even with ccw+pistol it still only 5 wounds and its really easy to put enough wound on the squad before the powerfist gets to swing. even with the nerfed HQs we have now a counter unit will wipe it out . its just as scoring as 10 man squad and gives just as many kill points , only it dies faster and has less kill power. 5 man NM squads with blast masters are better campers then 5 man csm squads with 1 plasma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Back to the original question, Some people have said that cult troops are the primary strength of chaos lists. Am I completely hosed tactically, to use primarily standard CSM and war machines? Essentially I'm trying to stick to units that the loyalists and chaos have in common, which may have been carried over by the Red Corsairs as they fled.As has been mentioned, you can do fine without cult troops. Hell, you can even include specialist (cult) units later, to represent the Red Corsairs closer to the current date. If you want a feel for how such a list might look, see if you can get your hands on one of the following (from the literature index): Novel: Into the Maelstrom, Short-story: Into the Maelstrom, by Chris Pramas. OR Novel: Let the Galaxy Burn, Short-story: Into the Maelstrom, by Chris Pramas. Novel: Heroes of the Space Marines, Short-story: The Skull Harvest, by Graham McNeill. Huron Blackheart and the planet New Badab makes an appearance in this story. This one is really great and it shows Huron using Cult troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffy.Gee Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I like a five man strong squad of CSM with a plasmagun and IoCG to hold an objective. It comes in at only 100 points and is useful for holding an objective close to your deployment zone, where it shouldn't come under too much fire. JG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2166831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeghrefn Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 I do not dispute that after a while all manner of renegades, chaos types, and who-knows-what eventually joined the Red Corsairs. My intent with this little project is actually to project what the force may have looked like in the immediate aftermath of thier escape from Badab - essentially the remains of the original Astral Claws, before they were able to attract reinforcements. (The pirate base they attacked immediately thereafter not withstanding... :P ) You guys have done a lot to bolster me in this regard, and I appreciate it. The few practice lists I've tried so far have not disappointed, and I look forward to expanding this out! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2168587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick A Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I have a Red Corsairs army based on the original fluff which is made up of disgruntled Marines from loyalist chapters. This way I can use the Chaos codex or, if I want to upset loyalist players, use the Space Marine codex... It also means I get to paint whatever chapter colours I feel like and use a good mix of old and new figures. Mick Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2168793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Until this dex, the paint scheme of the RC's was s/m renegades in their s/m armor and chapter colors with the Imperial icons X'ed out with red paint or with chaos symbols painted over them in red. Actually that was merely because the previous Codex Chaos Space Marines did not include any "proper" Red Corsairs/Astral Claws. There already had been a red corsairs article in White Dwarf with their red/black scheme a few years ago, before the current Codex, and the novel "Maelstrom" (I think that was it) which is pretty old had an artwork of Huron with red/black armour on it's cover. As far as the issue of which Codex to use is concerned, to me the most important distinction between loyalisst and traitors is not that traitors are spiky and can use daemons. It is that loyalists fight for a cause and are devoted, while traitors fight for themselves. Thus ever since 2nd Edition loyalists had a morale special rule that traitors did not have. In 2nd Edition that had been the "break tests" rule, and since 3rd Edition it's "ATSKNF". The 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines specifically highlighted that difference in it's introduction as a deliberate design choice. Thus, if it is a traitor force, no matter how long they have been traitors, they should not have ATSKNF. There is the question of equipment, but when the Astral Claws were attacked on their home world and nearly wiped out we can assume that their facilities have been lost, not to mention they have no ties to Forge Worlds or the Adeptus Mechanicus anymore. So they should not neccessarily have access to all the more advanced and difficult to maintain technology of loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Don't know when the artical in WD that you are referencing came out, but I doubt it was older then C:csm 3.5. And eather way, the RC's in their chapter colors with the Imperial iconography defiled with red paint (blood?) is established, and their's no reason the guy shouldn't do his army that way if that's how he wants to do it. As to the equip and weops, what about more recient renegades then the astral claws ? They would have all the weops and equip (replacment parts etc.) that was on their ship(s) when they decided to run away and join the circus. And there is also raiding to get equip. I have no problem with someone using the s/m dex to represent renegades and I don't think they should be bashed for it (not that you're doing it Legatus). And there are people who use the s/m dex and limit what they take from it (no landspeeders, etc), so they don't have stuff that a chaos army shouldn't have. But that's up to them. I agree with the atsknf, if you are representing renegades, even recient ones, you should not use atsknf. But if you put a character or sarg in each squad, use termi's and vehicles and dreads, you should get along just fine w/out it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Don't know when the artical in WD that you are referencing came out, but I doubt it was older then C:csm 3.5. And eather way, the RC's in their chapter colors with the Imperial iconography defiled with red paint (blood?) is established, and their's no reason the guy shouldn't do his army that way if that's how he wants to do it. Oh, he can definietly do renegades with crossed out symbols. Huron welcomes that (IIRC). I merely wanted to object to the statement that only the current Codex has introduced the red/black scheme of the Red Corsairs. Their "official" scheme is red/lack, but recently turned members might just cross out their chapter symbols to spite their former brethren. The previous Codex Chaos Space Marines simply only showed some of those that decided to just cross out the symbols. About the equipment: I assume after a Chapter has turned and lost access to forgeworlds and mechanicus, once the more advanced equipment gets worn out they will have a hard time replacing it. Of course they could raid a forgeworld or loyalist bases, but those are some of the best defended worlds in the Imperium, so it is going to be difficult. I would assume most of the time renegades will have to do with the simpler vehicles such as Rhinos and Predators. If a Chapter has only just now turned, last week or so, then they might still have all of their equipment. But if they turned a couple of years ago (which is still very recent if you consider the 40K timeline) then they will already have lost a lot of equipment. Loyalists can constantly be supplied by Forgeworlds or the Adeptus Mechanicus, renegades cannot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The previous Codex Chaos Space Marines simply only showed some of those that decided to just cross out the symbols. where was that said ? not in the dex and not in any IA article I can remember . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 IIRC there were some "crossed-out" scheme Red Corsairs in the little "showcase" section at the end of 3.5. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I mean , where was it said that the corsiars something else then the red crosses . the original astral claws did have that orange/camo thing , but it was way back in RT times. since then till codex thorpe there was 0 fluff about how they looked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Ah, ok. True. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182991-red-corsairs-fluffy/#findComment-2170945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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