Weapon options for Captain

[Ravenfeld]

Well this post has definately made me rethink my Captain.

 

I am making an IH list and I know that my Captain has to be in terminator armour because it makes too much sense fluff wise. Originally I was going to make a dual power fist captain based on using Marneus as a counts as otherwise using him with C:SW and giving him eternal warrior with the Saga of the Bear. But thinking about it now the risk is too great (unless I am using him as Calgar?) and the points are a little on the steep side. So I have revised my outlook and I mathed up a new captain with a TH/SS + a Grenade launcher and he turned out to be 15 points shy of Lysander. Should I just cut the middle man and use Lysander? Or is the 15 points + Grenade Launcher worth it? I play at 1850 so I have noticed that fielding Calgar tends to hurt my point-pocket book a little, what do you guys think?

 

Sorry to high jack the post a little but I didn't want to make my own when there was one right here.

 

Thanks!

 

-- Putrius

[Captain Idaho]

I like to save points, as quite often I find that I get a little over buget by a few points, so taking what I want in the list I have to re-jiggle things. If I can save 15pts on my HQ, for example, I can quite often drop those redundant 5-man objective camping Scouts for that Typhoon I wanted.

 

So I would get everything in your list that you want with the Cheap version of the Captain you mentioned first, then if you have the points you can upgrade to the mighty Lysander.

 

I normally don't bother with Artificer armour, as Relic Blade/Storm Shield combo Captain, alongside a squad to take the hits from shooting, is plenty survivable and only 145pts! Again, if you have points spare after getting all the things you want in a list, then go for upgrades.

 

However I do use this method below, so I do agree the extra points can be well worth it depending on how you build your list normally.

 

In the first role, the artificer armor gets great use because I always allocate as many wounds as possible on the captain (provided they aren't str8 or higher, ofc), so his 2+ save means he can soak up small-arms fire (which is what usually kills my termies) like mad. In close combat it's less useful because most people focus their attacks on the termies anyway.

 

I don't think close combat command squad is a great idea. Maybe with khan, but with normal captain, no. If you have a 170 pts captain then you really don't want to drive him around in a non-assault vehicle, and if you get a LR then you really should get termies too.

 

I agree. Why have a Command squad tooled for CC when you can have Honour Guard, assault terminators or Vanguard? To make the squad decent in CC and survivable, you spend alot of points but don't have fodder in the unit from spare bods like you would in an 8 man Vanguard with similar weapons. You won't have the kill-ability of Honour Guard no matter what you do and the FNP only makes the unit superior if you have an attached IC as on their own 2+ save is always better. You just won't get more survivable and hard hitting than Terminators for the same price on those Command squad.

 

Take some firepower based weapons in the unit instead.

[Giga]

So I have revised my outlook and I mathed up a new captain with a TH/SS + a Grenade launcher and he turned out to be 15 points shy of Lysander.

Well, for one, you don't want an I1 captain.

 

There are two reasons for this;

 

1) I5 is very hard to come by in a space marine army. Only some HQs got base I5, and the only way to get I5 for other units is to put Khan in the unit and get the charge off. I5 is very very important, as it gives you an edge over other I4 stuff (all MEQ, basically). When your captain + a command squad attacks say, a unit of 10 chaos marines, your captain gets to swing first and usually take out 2-3 CSM before they even get to swing their weapons. This effectively means you've just removed 6-9 attacks that would've otherwise hit your command squad. This is very very important.

 

2) non-eternal warrior HQs tend to die before they swing their weapons. Even when you give them artificer armor and storm shield, just a little bad rolling means you can lose your killer HQ before he gets to do anything. Or, you can get to attack simultaneously with those powerfists, at which point you take a single powerfist wound and naturally roll a 1 on your invulnerable save, losing your 185 pts HQ to some random sergeant. It happens, and it's likely to happen with the I5 captain too, but the I5 captain makes it a lot less likely to happen.

 

The best way to circumvent all of these problems is to get Lysander, because Lysander has eternal warrior, a master-crafted str 10 ap1 thunder hammer, and bolster defenses, which makes him very very good for his points. But then again he also comes packing with terminator armor, so he can't sweeping advance and he absolutely needs a land raider to be effective.

 

As for the grenade launcher, I don't think it's worth the points. Too small damage on it, especially since you'll use it only once per game or something like that.

[Captain Idaho]

As for the grenade launcher, I don't think it's worth the points. Too small damage on it, especially since you'll use it only once per game or something like that.

 

Being the pedantic Ultramarine I am; it's actually just a standard 12" weapon, but it may as well be a one shot weapon, seeing as assault based characters are likely to fire such weapons a handful times per game at best!! :woot:

[Ravenfeld]

Well my options would naturally be a Land Raider or a Gate Librarian to bring my Lysander where I want him. The issue is like I said I feel as an Iron Hands player my heroes should be geared in TDA for fluff purposes. I am having a hard time trying to convince myself otherwise, so if I am stuck with TDA I may as well make it a hero in TDA right? Points noted on the Grenade Launcher!

[DerekLee688]

I'd only rely on the Lib's gate if you're totaly fine with the risks involved. Gating into terrain or drifting in the opposite direction of the target are the two things that burned me, if either one occurs they won't be able to assult the turn they gate, or the next turn they try to gate away again. Lysander, unit, & Lib are a lot of points to leave in the wind of drift.

 

IMHO Lysander needs a Land Raider; to get him there fast, intact, and swinging the turn he's let out. That or cram his butt in a DP and get a sweet-havoc inducing turn one drop, but not getting that shot due to the other guy reserving his army etc. will keep Lysander's usefulness below prime.

 

I wouldn't mind trying a Dakka Captain: Relic Blade, Artificers armor, Storm Bolter, and AGL. That or replacing the SB with Hellfire rounds and a bike. (I say that, but 90% of the time I buy a 100pt. Lib and the rest goes to more bodies or a LS)

[minigun762]

Maybe its coming from the traitor camp, but it seems like going with a nice simple cheap Captain is the best idea.

 

Captain, Relic Blade, Stormbolter optional.

 

What is that, 140 points maybe? You're still hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's and have a 3+/4++ save.

With the wide variety of viable special characters that the new SM codex has, it seems that if you make your Captain too expensive, you're better off just buying a SC instead.

[DerekLee688]

Cap+Relic+SB=133 I would agree with you. I always run a cheap HQ and use those points to fill orginization slots. However, I would love to deck out my HQ to make him a more dynamic part of my army, but I tend to go for mass-mobile weight of fire and templates gallore.

[Khavos]

I agree. Why have a Command squad tooled for CC when you can have Honour Guard

 

Great infantry killers, but conventional wisdom around here seems to suggest Marines already excel at that, so therefore redundant. You're adding 25 points into the cost to get the CM rather than the Captain, too.

 

assault terminators

 

Hard to beat, true. Wish I could get behind them, but for some reason I just refuse.

 

or Vanguard?

 

Very expensive to make considerably more effective than an Assault Squad without jump packs, at least for the type of stuff I personally would be throwing them at.

 

To make the squad decent in CC and survivable, you spend alot of points but don't have fodder in the unit from spare bods like you would in an 8 man Vanguard with similar weapons. You won't have the kill-ability of Honour Guard no matter what you do and the FNP only makes the unit superior if you have an attached IC as on their own 2+ save is always better. You just won't get more survivable and hard hitting than Terminators for the same price on those Command squad.

 

CS has a 3+ save, FNP, and the option for Storm Shields and LC/PWs on the Vets, while still keeping their guns. Gets expensive quick, granted, but you're getting essentially TH/SS terminators with a LC instead of the TH, meaning they won't strike at I1, and still retaining their ability to get off shots with their bolt pistols prior to the assault. Pretty weak shooting, sure, but if you threw in a plasma pistol or two...

 

The unit of CS I'm considering at the moment weighs in at 230, which is 30 points that could be spent elsewhere if I just took TH/SS terminators, but comes with 3 Storm Shields, 3 LCs, and a Power Fist. As killy as HG? No, not even close. But the attached IC's the star of the show for that unit, anyway, and I'd argue they're certainly more survivable than HG, with the option of hitting stuff you'd need the Str8 punch for. If nothing else, effective tarpits.

 

Anyway, I'll probably always stick with the Captain with RB/SS/Artificer Armor. Wish I could get rid of my paranoid Storm Shield safety blanket and throw some shooting on him, but I apparently have a little too much HeroHammer in me. Vulkan would be a fantastic buy and do what the Captain does even better for marginally more points, but...well, everybody uses Vulkan.