Brother Santios Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Basically as the thread title states which two power combinations have the most utility as a pair? I like Vortex and Gateway for damage and movement but i'm asking you brothers and sisters for your opinions Thanks in advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus de Mortalis Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I've been thinking of a librarian on a bike with Might of the Ancients to hurt armor and reinforce an assault where need be. Four attacks with S6+2D6 armor penetration is absolutely deadly to AV10, the most common rear armor value you are going to encounter. Against MEQ, he has the same killing power as a captain with a runesword. Just keep away from dreadnoughts. He will most likely stick with a bike squad with 3 meltas and a power fist and my captain on a bike so this squad will be extremely capable against armor or infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2167316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Santios Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 hmmm I've been looking at Null Zone and Smite today teasing myself with them ... If I upgrade him I think I can use both and so ignore Invulnerable saves and AP2 shots ? plus the Null Zone lasts all turn so even if I cant use both I should be able to whittle down opponents (playing Salamanders so fairly close quarters anyway) Think this combination would work ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2167331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Trick with that is you need an Epistolary & relentless, Termi-armor or a bike will do you fine. If you go with the bike, I'd sudgest Vortex and Null Zone to make shure what you hit dies. I'd like to experiment with a combination of any two of Avenger, Quickening, and Might of the Ancients to make an assault monster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2167339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 My preferred combo is Might of the Ancients and Quickening on an Epostilary. Fighting an Eldar Autarch? Quickening+Force Weapon. Carnifex? MotA+Force Weapon. Dreadnought? Quickening+MotA. Just remember that your Force Weapon is also a psychic power (so you need an Epostilary to use it and something else). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2167382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Santios Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Right, thanks for the input, definitely food for thought there..... Thats the problem with 'trying something new' I suppose, you get stuck in the rut of 'I always use this with this' and your armies become differently painted clones of each other :-p not this time mr bond ... not this time :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2168086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rioniku Anjiru Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I like the idea of an Epistolary with Quick + Might but it becomes pretty expensive for a unit with only 2 profile attacks and no invul save. Giving him termi armor and a storm shield alleviates that but then we're talking about a 190 point model with only 2 attacks... I like the librarian a lot but I really wish he had a base invul save like the other HQs. Might + Force weapon is nice against a 'fex for instance, but if none of your attacks wound then that's one dead libby from the retaliation... I should try it and see how it plays out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2168736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Gate has the most utility in my opinion, followed very closely by Null Zone. Gate is a 24" hop around the board, and for a small (but still considerable) risk he can take a team with him. (Typically people use this to bounce Sternguard with plasma around the table.) Forcing your opponents to have to reroll their invuln saves can be very, very nice. My only issue with my Librarian is his utter lack of survivability in CC; no invuln save gets finicky. Since I've been using him to gate my terminators around the map (and not much else), I'm going to put him in terminator armor, drop him from Epistolary to normal, and give him Gate and one other power...probably Smite or Vortex. One last power with good utility that is completely eschewed by players I've talked to is the Force Weapon. Hit a multiwound model, pass a test, kill the model. Sure, most HQs have Eternal Warrior or something else that ignores Instant Death...but the Librarian without an invuln is not my HQ killing unit. A librarian in terminator armor w/ SS has been recommended to me more than once as a method of dealing with Khaine (the Eldar Avatar)...recall that the big guy doesn't have Eternal Warrior which means the Force Weapon power + MotA could make him dead in one hit. Trick is of course you'll be wounding on 6s (Avatar is T8) and with only 2-3 attacks...it's dodgy. That 3+ might keep you going for a while though. (Then again, the last Avatar I faced I brought down with my Lascannon Dev Squad. <3) There are a few other models that don't have Eternal Warrior that the Librarian might be good against. Annoying ones like Autarchs, 2-wound Exarchs, Nobs/Meganobz, all the crap that people forget about apparently. I'm not saying you should charge your Librarian into a fight with Meganobz, but if he gets charged and his unit gets slaughtered, no reason you shouldn't blow some fool Nob's brains out the back of his head. (Then Gate to safey in your following movement phase.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2169611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Infinity Gate+Terminators. First turn deep strike and then second turn assault. No need for special transportation like a raider that could be stunned/destroyed and so on. No need to wait for reserve rolls. The HQ you bring with them has a force weapon to help with the bad things. Have him inside a SS/TH unit and he's got a hard bodyguard. Add a second power to be Might of Ancients. The easy way to jump 20 terminators in the face of opposition. Use a drop pod to carry the last 5 terminators and you got 25 terminators on table, deep striking on turn 1 with relative ease. I always wondered to try this out, but it bothered me if it was just yet another khan+tigerius combo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2169670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 My preferred combo is Might of the Ancients and Quickening on an Epostilary. Fighting an Eldar Autarch? Quickening+Force Weapon. Carnifex? MotA+Force Weapon. Dreadnought? Quickening+MotA. Just remember that your Force Weapon is also a psychic power (so you need an Epostilary to use it and something else). Nice combo. I haven't really considered quickening on a Librarian. It is definitely a power that works best with the Epistolary upgrade. I like a utility stock Librarian, with Avenger and Might of Heroes, backing up lesser infantry like our Tacticals. He can use Avenger to template a bunch of opponents, even power armoured ones, which will be an equaliser for those Tacticals. Of course the Might of Heroes is pretty good in CC, though to be honest I intend to swap it for Null zone as Tacticals aren't so good in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2169722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I run a 140 point libby in the form of termy armour and SS - Avenger and might are my two powers of choice and when you bang him in a drop pod with 10 marines and a fist and you have a very strong and scoring unit that is down turn one making a mess of things. With this combo you will almost always take out a full unit of infantry as you get alot of volume with a pretty high kicker coming from the str5 ap3 avenger... and you can drop right next to your target without fear because of the pod. Might comes in in later rounds and keeps that combat resolution ticking and with a hidden PF in the unit it has some powerful AT potential. The lowly stats of the libby is a bit of a bummer BUT with termy armour and a SS, he has the best protection in the game. For 140 points, I dont think you can get a stronger character with the same ability from the marine dex when used in a tactical squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2170035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Agreed mate. A little OT, but such uses of characters as you have described is the real strength of the Space Marines army list. Whilst our Tactical squads seem under gunned in comparison to other strong Troops choices, the Space Marines armylist can add really useful support Characters that most armies cannot hope to imitate. That "weak" Tactical squad is all of a sudden a serious threat with an 140pts character. I would say even a cheap 100pts Librarian would magnify the threat factor of Tactical squads. I might have to get that combo Librarian mate, except I would swap Avenger for Vortex and maybe even Might of Heros for something - but what... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2170487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I have been experimenting with a TDA+SS Libby. With Null Zone and might of the ancients. I usually run this with a unit of assault terminators (1xLC, 4xTH+SS). This really adds to the unit making it punch above its weight (I know crazy right) It is a great IC hunting unit and has killed 3 characters over the last 2 games I have played. (Thraka, Warboss, Avatar) due to null zone and the force weapon. I would like to use quickening as well, but without sacrificing an invulnerable save 2 attacks just doesn't seem worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2170528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I like Gate+Null Zone...paired with Shooty Terms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2170694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I run a real cheap Librarian (we know they die easy unless you spend up on them) with a jumppack. Thats it for upgrades. Avenger is PERFECT for a Libby with a jump pack. He can quite easily take down 5 marines everytime he lays down that template. I never use the libby and assault squad as a hammer, but more to mop up what is left after the libby avengers them, and a supporting squad or 3 have fired into the target. The assault squad (powerfist of course) and libby clean up the remnant if there is one. Another tactic I have used is to tankshock the target unit before avengering them. I think the best I have done is 8 marines in one shot :) As a secondary power I use either machine curse (decent ranged weapon to deny shooting) or Might of the Ancients. But since I don't rely on my libby to be a combat monster I usually go the shooting. If I can stun that tank, it means my other units can concentrate on other targets. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2173047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hmm, it is tempting to use the same combo for my Librarian in the upcoming GT, without the jump pack. Reason being is in all the trial games he has played he only used Might of Heroes twice and it didn't do much, where as Avenger is always useful. If I swapped in Machine Curse it can be a nasty surprise for heavy armour. Indeed, Hammer Heads and almost unkillable Falcons can be neutralised with the use of this power! Hmm indeed! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2173933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Rocking out Machine Curse tonight. Its an intro game I am running for a new Ork player so I dont know how much I will get to use it but it should be fun. I find Gate to be of subjective value. Against Orks, Chaos, Nids it seems like a good ploy. However against: - IG you are better off in combat and not shooting - Eldar, you will never pull the power off - Marines, you best jump outta range of that hood - DH, you will only have 50% because of that hood Some nasty tricks to consider though. Libby with bike and gate + attack bike squadron = highly mobile heavy weapon death! I am still convinced that smite is a good power if you are up against some TEQ. Add in a few power weapons and you have probably got a decent terminator killing unit. Avenger is only good if you want to charge or its a small unit, if you are within range of a large unit and you cant charge that template is not going to save you. Force dome is not good enough. 5+ is still 5+ despite it being invulnerable. Quickening is not good enough with a max of 4 attacks (2 will miss, 1 will likely fail to wound). Anything that fast is better off shooting than assaulting. Might is only good against vehicles but why are you using a HQ to tank hunt? Maybe on a bike with a melta shooting bike squad but its a bit over kill for anything but a landraider. Nullzone is really useful if the enemy has invulnerable saves, however if that invulnerable is 3+ making the reroll is not that difficult. An invulnerable of 5+ though is going to really hurt with this unit. But again this all counts on your weapons getting past any armour save or them only having an invulnerable. Hope this summary is helpful. I wont rank them but I generally think that all the powers are useful, you just have to pick ones which complement your army or punish specific enemies. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2173950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I love Machine Curse. Folks always forget about it, or underestimate it. Auto-glance on a Monolith, Land Raider, or Russ? Yes, please. Also works great against Dreads, squadron Kans, and squadron Speeders. Hell, anything squadroned is worth shooting with it. I also like to use Avenger, for the AP3 hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2173955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Avenger is only good if you want to charge or its a small unit, if you are within range of a large unit and you cant charge that template is not going to save you. You have some really good points there Wan, most if not all the powers are situational. Just a thought on the Avenger though, I use my jump pack libby to get close enough to use this power, and it can easily kill over half a tactical squad. That doesn't leave much to fight back against the librarian and the accompanying assault squad. But in any case, especially against anything tough, I make sure Avenger is just one of the templates/storms of gunfire that will be hitting that sqaud before I assault it. Last week I had 5 wolfguard (fully kitted termies) and Ragnar drop podded in front of my army. Throw enough dice and something will stick... I still had to assault Ragnar though, the bugger lived through the gunfire! RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2174668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 @rov - Oh yeah, avenger as a precursor to assault is a godsend, didnt mean to sell it short in this instance as it really is the pinacle of its usefulness. Dont get me wrong it has some use even when you cant assault. - Drop pod/rhino exit with Sternguard and two heavy flamers. Whatever survives this is not going to be large enough to worry about. - As part of a rapid firing tactical squad - its better than nothing and sometimes you are better off shooting than charging (Banshees!) Generally speaking though its best to operate at template distance only if you can charge or bring multiple templates to bare. Sadly didnt get a game last night so the delights of Machine Curse will have to wait for another week. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2174701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starblayde Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I love Machine Curse. Folks always forget about it, or underestimate it. Auto-glance on a Monolith, Land Raider, or Russ? Yes, please. Also works great against Dreads, squadron Kans, and squadron Speeders. Hell, anything squadroned is worth shooting with it. Except if you roll an eleven. Twice. On consecutive turns. While that Vindicator blows your units to bits. *Sigh* ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2174749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Generally speaking though its best to operate at template distance only if you can charge or bring multiple templates to bare. Absolutely. I usually try to team it up with my LSS with Heavy Flamer, or if I am feeling brave, my Vindicator (scatter hasn't got my libby... yet...). I haven't tried Sternguard with Heavy Flamers though, it sounds very tempting... :) RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2174781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I run a TDA Libby with TH/SS Termies, so I like Null Zone and Vortex. Null Zone makes ICs fear PFs that much more, makes sure the THs hit home, and makes Demons cry. Vortex provides extra oomph against Nobs, Thunderwolves, TEQs, and Monoliths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2175223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Avenger is only good if you want to charge or its a small unit, if you are within range of a large unit and you cant charge that template is not going to save you. granted, but if you pod in or use a transport to get up close, most times you cant assault anyway. Being this close is the optimal range for marine weaponry. I love this little gem of a power in combination with a dread and a typhoon.. I pick a transport, drop in the unit right on it, The dread drops in behind the marines, smoke it with the typhoon and then wipe out the disembarking unit. The dread is a bit of an insurance policy because it can help open up that transport if your missiles fail and it also helps block any kind of heat that would normally counter strike your marines. I realise it is an expensive combo in total, but as most lists have 2 or 3 troop choices, dropping one early from a relatively safe position can really help out with the goal of scoring a win, and generally, doing this early will put your own scoring unit close to some kind of objective.. Force dome is not good enough. 5+ is still 5+ despite it being invulnerable. I agree. Quickening is not good enough with a max of 4 attacks (2 will miss, 1 will likely fail to wound). Anything that fast is better off shooting than assaulting. As you said, if the libby isnt going to kill it with one hit (insta gib) the intiative kick wont help at all because anything worth points generally has more than one wound with a decent invul. save. Might is only good against vehicles but why are you using a HQ to tank hunt? Maybe on a bike with a melta shooting bike squad but its a bit over kill for anything but a landraider. I disagree - a libby with might and the charge is very similar in ability to a captain with a relic blade. The libby has a WS of 5, so it hits mosts things on a 3+. He has the same amount of attacks (3 or 4) and str 6 is a wound on a 2+. Intiative 4 will go before anything that has the str to insta kill him and anything that is striking before him at intiative 4 is generally striking before a captain anyway. Against vehicles he is golden.. 4 attacks!! much better than a melta shot because he reduces most armour values to 10 and with a 2d6 + 6 he will get through most armour values fairly easily and more reliably than a pf... (rear armour) Against walkers is where this guy shines, his WS 5 gives him a boost as he hits on a 3+ (same as shooting with a melta gun) but has 4 attacks.. He will strike first or on par against most walkers as most are intiative 3 or 4 (ork dreads and defilers/soulgrinders) with marine dreads really the only intiative 4 walkers of threat. Nullzone is really useful if the enemy has invulnerable saves, however if that invulnerable is 3+ making the reroll is not that difficult. An invulnerable of 5+ though is going to really hurt with this unit. But again this all counts on your weapons getting past any armour save or them only having an invulnerable. This power has always let me down. It eaither had no effect (guard or orks or nids or marines or necrons or DE) with its only real ability coming to the fore against things like daemons or harlies BUT then if you are going against eldar, good luck in getting this power off. I suppose that the main thing to think about when you kit up your libby is that he is never going to be a brawling and mauling IC. He will never be able to stand up to anything stronger than a marine and come up trumps RELIABLY. Your libby is your hidden blade in your standard troops. Supporting them and giving them the edge to win combats. That is why I like might and avenger - I run him with tacticals and these two powers are great for the range of threats that your standard marine can handle... When you look at vortex of doom and it being str 10 and ap1, anything you would use this power to kill is by far way too strong for standard marines.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2177090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Dude, you have convinced me! I will definitely be using Avenger and Might of Heroes with my power armoured Librarian! (my original combo) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183205-librarian-powers/#findComment-2177154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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