LuNCHBiZZLe Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 even better is MOT+warptime+ closecombat and rerolls on the force weapon for multi would models,then again I play my ICs very CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2170861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 He's a flying daemonic lascannon No he is a flying demonic ML. If BoC was str.9, more people would think it was good. Now you're just picking holes. My point was that in certain circumstances a DP with BoC and Warptime is useful. My point is made. End of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2171564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 No one was saying it wasn't useful. We were saying it was not points effective compared to other choices. Possessed are useful, but you don't see them in lists, because they are not effective for their points compared to other things. Now with his mobile str8 ap1 shot has a 27% chance of killing a..... rhino, or pred against side armor assuming no cover. Now with a range of 24" and moving 12" it is fairly obvious he is only going to get off 1 or 2 shots before he is in hth. And on that final turn he has to assault what he is shooting... if he assaults troops the shot is ok, but very inferior to WoC. If he shoots a vehicle and kills it... nothing to asault, if he doesn't kill it, he assaults it, which he would of done anyways. So in 2 turns of fire he has a 54% chance of killing an armor 11 vehicle. Not to bad if your enemy has a pred or vindi and lets him see side armor. That is really his prime situation to earn his points back, against armor 12 it drops to 18.9%, against 13 it drops to 10.8%, and against 14 its only a 2.7% chance of killing. So against Leman Russ, dreadnaughts, Eldar skimmers, ect. he really loses his effectiveness. I point this out because while somewhat useful against mech marines he isn't against other armies. He can pop light armor and be somewhat reliable. Preds and vindicators are his prime target because he isn't exactly going to earn his points back popping rhinos and ork trucks. In 2 turns he has a 54% chance of killing a 130-140pt(avg) tank so his 2 turns of firing are worth 70.2pts(130*.54), and that is if he shoots side armor, or a 54% chance of killing a 35pt rhino which is worth 18.9pts. Math against armor 11: 1 shot, .8333 hit, .9722 after warptime, .48611 pen, .16203 glance. .48611 pen= .243 chance of killing .16203 glance = .027 chance of killing(needing a 6). Total= .27 W/O warptime= 23% chance. Now WoC hitting 5 marines or 5 terminators(prime targets). 5 is also a lower number, if bunched up its easy to hit 7+. 5 hit, 3.75 wound after warptime, 3.75 dead marines, or 2.5 dead terminators. So 56.25pts of marines, and 87.5pts worth of terminators(using my chaos termies usual cost of 35pts). Thats 1 turn of shooting compared to 2 turns for BoC, now yes he will only get that chance right before going into HtH. I point it out to avoid arguments that after HtH he could go tank hunting again, after HtH he could also use WoC on another squad. WoC looks slightly more points effective against the 'prime' target and far more effective against the average target, and it goes with what a DP does anyways, assault. He doesn't have to worry about shooting what he is going to assault with WoC. This is the other reason I like WoC, it softens up his HtH target before he assaults, it goes extremely well with what a DP already does. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse here. Just trying to point out useful vs points effective. I agree, it is useful, but there are better options if you want something that will earn its points back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2171642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Don't have my codex handy so.... Can a DP with wings Deep Strike? That could make the BoC a bit better... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2173222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 even better is MOT+warptime+ closecombat and rerolls on the force weapon for multi would models,then again I play my ICs very CC. My sorceror took out a chaos sorceror and lord today that way before he finally went down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2173283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 No one was saying it wasn't useful. We were saying it was not points effective compared to other choices. Possessed are useful, but you don't see them in lists, because they are not effective for their points compared to other things. Now with his mobile str8 ap1 shot has a 27% chance of killing a..... rhino, or pred against side armor assuming no cover. Now with a range of 24" and moving 12" it is fairly obvious he is only going to get off 1 or 2 shots before he is in hth. And on that final turn he has to assault what he is shooting... if he assaults troops the shot is ok, but very inferior to WoC. If he shoots a vehicle and kills it... nothing to asault, if he doesn't kill it, he assaults it, which he would of done anyways. So in 2 turns of fire he has a 54% chance of killing an armor 11 vehicle. Not to bad if your enemy has a pred or vindi and lets him see side armor. That is really his prime situation to earn his points back, against armor 12 it drops to 18.9%, against 13 it drops to 10.8%, and against 14 its only a 2.7% chance of killing. So against Leman Russ, dreadnaughts, Eldar skimmers, ect. he really loses his effectiveness. I point this out because while somewhat useful against mech marines he isn't against other armies. He can pop light armor and be somewhat reliable. Preds and vindicators are his prime target because he isn't exactly going to earn his points back popping rhinos and ork trucks. In 2 turns he has a 54% chance of killing a 130-140pt(avg) tank so his 2 turns of firing are worth 70.2pts(130*.54), and that is if he shoots side armor, or a 54% chance of killing a 35pt rhino which is worth 18.9pts. Math against armor 11: 1 shot, .8333 hit, .9722 after warptime, .48611 pen, .16203 glance. .48611 pen= .243 chance of killing .16203 glance = .027 chance of killing(needing a 6). Total= .27 W/O warptime= 23% chance. Now WoC hitting 5 marines or 5 terminators(prime targets). 5 is also a lower number, if bunched up its easy to hit 7+. 5 hit, 3.75 wound after warptime, 3.75 dead marines, or 2.5 dead terminators. So 56.25pts of marines, and 87.5pts worth of terminators(using my chaos termies usual cost of 35pts). Thats 1 turn of shooting compared to 2 turns for BoC, now yes he will only get that chance right before going into HtH. I point it out to avoid arguments that after HtH he could go tank hunting again, after HtH he could also use WoC on another squad. WoC looks slightly more points effective against the 'prime' target and far more effective against the average target, and it goes with what a DP does anyways, assault. He doesn't have to worry about shooting what he is going to assault with WoC. This is the other reason I like WoC, it softens up his HtH target before he assaults, it goes extremely well with what a DP already does. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse here. Just trying to point out useful vs points effective. I agree, it is useful, but there are better options if you want something that will earn its points back. Aaargh Maths! Anyway, I'm not saying BoC is comparable to WoC or anything else. I find BoC extremely effective for softening up IC's, Heavy armoured squads and Light vehicles before assault. Try it against Imperial Guard/Eldar with their light walkers (Sentinels/War Walkers Respectively), and you'll be killing one in shooting before charging into assault. I'm too lazy to do the maths, but most of the time you're not going to be killing 3 light walkers in one assault with only 6 attacks. BoC one and see how that evens up the odds. Blast an Autarch and then charge him and see how he takes that one. And killing even 1 Howling bansee before they get into CC is worth it. Against Horde and footslogging armies, BoC is nigh-on useless, whereas against light walkers and armies with a low model count, every shot can give you back half (sometimes even double) your points! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2175080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Wow, good times. Yeah I am not sure if the words "Obliterator" and "Not" "flexible" should be placed in the same sentence but whatever. Just last Saturday I had my obliterator roll placement on the mishap deepstrike chart. The Ultrasmurf player placed him on the COMPLETE opposite side of the table. This still allowed me to pop off shots with the lascannon.. I would say there is not a unit in the game as versatile as the Obliterator. So now that I am done trolling this... I would say No matter what way you go... BoC / WT / MoT WoC / WT / MoT 2.5 Obliterators.. It is all about play style and what else you have in your list to support it.. I Personally run MoN / WT / Wings on my Daemon prince and now to feel more Iron Warrior friendly am going to run a Terminator Lord with MoK and DW. Going to convert a Servo arm to the back of it. I feel like it would be fluffy for IW. Of course I am still trying to justify the use of a Sorc lord in my army as well... Was thinking about doing something like in the Storm of Iron book where the Warsmith has a Sorc advisor... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2175331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I Personally run MoN / WT / Wings on my Daemon prince Never tried that personally... sounds killy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2175804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I Personally run MoN / WT / Wings on my Daemon prince Never tried that personally... sounds killy I've faced that prince several times. Its really good and not very expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2175958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 At 175 points..... Marines need 6's to wound... he becomes a meatshield with the ability to hit on 3 wound on 2 re-rolls both.. Average of 3-4 models a round of combat and unless he is in contact with a power fist.. he RARELY takes wounds. My entire time playing him he has only died once... To calgar.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2175979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I'm too lazy to do the maths, but most of the time you're not going to be killing 3 light walkers in one assault with only 6 attacks. BoC one and see how that evens up the odds. Blast an Autarch and then charge him and see how he takes that one. And killing even 1 Howling bansee before they get into CC is worth it. BoC w/ Warptime against 10: .9722 chance to hit, .648 chance to pen, .162 chance to glance. To Destroy Pen-.324, .432 if open topped Glance-.027, .054 if open topped So 35.1% chance against a walker, 48.6% chance against open topped sentinel. Not trying to downplay that, decent numbers, WoC will do barely anything against walkers. Has a very small chance of killing an open topped sentinel. However that Autarch will likely not be alone. He will be in a unit so you can't single him out. If you could... well BoC would instakill him, of course the DP in HtH will also instakill him. And against the squad that the Autarch is in, or against the howling bansees you are very likely to kill 1 w/ BoC, you are also very likely to kill a few with WoC :) . If you just hit 5 it will kill 3.75, same as against marines. So BoC is better against light walkers, which are again cheap so he has to kill a lot to earn his points back. Not much different than the rhino story. BoC is good, but for a CC monster WoC still looks like a better deal in every case except against light walkers, and big monstrous creatures w/ T7 or less. Once you hit T8 WoC is better again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2176154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Can I just say that you mathhammer guys amaze me. I am way to lazy to even think about the math and rarely rely on statistics and ratio.. Figuring that most games come down to luck and its almost like playing the damn lotery when it comes to rolls. I have rolled 4 1's in a row and at the same time I have rolled 5 6's all in the same roll.. Looking at the actual math of things makes a lot of sense though. whooohooo math hammer! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2177368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Don't sweat the math. I didn't start doing this kind of math till I took statistics in college. Compared to that, the math of what a couple d6s will do is quite easy. And luck is big, in a 6 turn game results could be very different from the statistics. But over the course of 100games you have a better idea of how things should perform, the amazing good rolls offsetting the horrible bad rolls from game to game. I've seen Arhiman fail 3 psychic tests in a row, the chances of that..... are pretty small. Also seen him go an entire game without failing one... which offsets failling 3 in a row. Back in 3.5 I actually had an obliterator weapons table. Showed statistically what was the best weapon for nearly every situation. I miss autocannons on obliterators, they outperformed lascannons in so many situations just because 2 shots being more likely to hit than 1 offset the str difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183216-mark-of-tz/page/2/#findComment-2177546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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