Are Bloodclaws worth it.

[BertyBottyBiter]

You're only insane if you lose :-P

[The WarpGhost]

Oh, I dont think anyone is saying BCs are bad. But they arent up to scratch compared with the Grey Hunters. Remember, that maybe that 15-man unit is nice, but you're still paying for the privilige. You're not getting extra value for money from those points, you're just paying a straight-up amount for more of less. Comparing 1x 15-man BC squad to 1x 10-man GH squad is a false economy; more accurately would be 1x 15-man BC against a 2x GH squads. The GH still win out there on quality and have additional tactical flexibility to boot! That flexibility may actually be worth more than the concentrated numbers of a BC squad.

[Mammon]

Slightly Insane Brother!

 

Blood Claws will always be worth it to me. Thats the issue here, the Rowdy Wolves worth is purely a personal opinion. I love my Grey Hunters, they have won battles for me time and again. My Claws have been the bane of ork bosses with their repeated assaults right into the center of the ork line. Mathhammer will never convince me that they aren't "worth their points". I mean seriously, their cost was increased by 1pt? How many points were knocked off the GH pricetag? 3pts?

[Grey Mage]

Slightly Insane Brother!

 

Blood Claws will always be worth it to me. Thats the issue here, the Rowdy Wolves worth is purely a personal opinion. I love my Grey Hunters, they have won battles for me time and again. My Claws have been the bane of ork bosses with their repeated assaults right into the center of the ork line. Mathhammer will never convince me that they aren't "worth their points". I mean seriously, their cost was increased by 1pt? How many points were knocked off the GH pricetag? 3pts?

6.

 

Grey Hunters went down 6pts. And gained Bolt Pistols in addition.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

GHs are now a bargain but x15 man packs can really take some punishment as they make their way on foot across the tabletop and all for 1KP.

 

I do miss the 3xPFs/PWs but 2 x flamers aren't a bad thing with BS3 marines

[DV8]

And in fact you throw in 16 Bolt pistol shots and that's another 3 dead orks.

 

And this is all before they get to attack back, and look, you have a nice 3+ save.

 

Grey Hunter pack for example:

 

10 Grey Hunters with two plasma guns (Choosing a nice new loadout) and pack leader with powerfist

18 Bolter shots at 12 inches or less

9 Hits

4 Wounds

4 Kills

4 Rapid fire plasma shots

2 hit

1 kill

 

So that's on average five dead orks and then they charge you, striking at the same initiative and with higher strength.

 

No look at the same pack on the charge:

30 Attacks

15 hit

7 wound

6 die

3 powerfist attacks

2 hit

2 die

 

You're killing about 8 by my reckoning, not the same is it?

 

People are looking at them wrong, they're perfect against horde armies.

 

I never thought I'd succumb to even basic mathhamer but people need to see they're not useless, just have a niche use.

 

Your argument is flawed, as you chose to give the Blood Claws a Wolf Priest leading them, but gave the Grey Hunters nothing in return.

 

You also fail to take into account that the Grey Hunters have the advantage of range, thereby using Bolters to thin out the horde before charging in, AND that Grey Hunters can also shoot Bolt Pistols before charging in.

 

That and you're also comparing 15 Blood Claws to 10 Grey Hunters, where, with or without a Wolf Priest, the Blood Claws are 75 points more than the Grey Hunters.

 

I'm sure if you were to do a fair comparison of 10 Blood Claws to 10 Grey Hunters, with or without a Wolf Priest, the gap in kills would not be as impressive (or as one sided).

 

As it stands, Blood Claws are useless (to me and how I play, at any rate). Blood Claws do one thing, and ONLY one thing well, and for equal points, you have Grey Hunters who are only marginally less effective on the charge (taking into consideration equal points spent in a comparison of the two), but are much more well rounded, and able to tackle most situations with relative ease.

 

To make my point, my Grey Hunter squads:

 

Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power Fist, Bolter, 38 pts

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino, 190 pts

 

That's 228 points, and the squad has pretty solid combat, the ability to take on armor and to thin out hordes, and the mobility to get around (say to claim objectives). You also have Mark of the Wulfen, where you can not only make up for the difference gap in attacks on the charge (between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters), but every turn afterwards, Grey Hunters are actually getting MORE attacks.

 

Compare:

 

Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power Fist, Bolter, 38 pts

9 Blood Claws, Meltagun, Power Fist, Rhino, 200 pts

 

That's 238 points, only marginally more than the Grey Hunters, and while they have the same mobility with the Rhino, they can't charge the turn they disembark, meaning the turn they do all they get is pistol shots. Their Meltagun with BS3 is less accurate, and they only make up for it by being marginally better on the charge as Grey Hunters, while without Bolters they lack the ability to sit on an objective and lay down fire.

 

You end up having to invest too many points in ancillary units to support the Blood Claws (and make them as "uber" as you claim they are), where Grey Hunters are just as effective for a fraction of the cost.

 

 

DV8

[EricBasser]

I usually use a 10 Blood Claw pack with Lukas. I keep the Blood Claws as they come.

This alone has chewed threw 2 squads of Stern Guard, and Lukas finished the squad off by Last Laugh taking away squads another Captain.

 

I believe they are worth it. I believe they do best against squads without power weapons, and Lukas adds a punch. I think of him as another HQ. And even if you throw the squad another HQ unit, you have Lukas to try to trick them.

 

That's just my opinion, I know people say that Lukas costs too much. But in my experiences, he's worth the points.

[DV8]

That's just my opinion, I know people say that Lukas costs too much. But in my experiences, he's worth the points.

 

It all depends on your style of play. I have a mechanized army, and I play it very much like Vanilla Marines, using Rhinos and Drop Pods to maneouver into position while Typhoons support, laying down layers of suppressive Bolter/Missile fire, and only when I deem it ready do I charge in to finish up.

 

Blood Claws/Lukas can certainly find their niche in a much more heavily combat-oriented army (re: one that takes almost exclusively Blood Claws for Troops), but for my kind of playstyle, they're useless to me (I field exclusively Grey Hunters in Rhinos/Pods, with Arjac and Ragnar for combat support).

 

DV8

[Greyshift]

You end up having to invest too many points in ancillary units to support the Blood Claws (and make them as "uber" as you claim they are), where Grey Hunters are just as effective for a fraction of the cost.

 

You're absolutely right DV8. The only reason for taking BC's over GH's is for fluff which is why i'll be taking a pack with a Wolf Priest, i just can't see the wolves going to war without bringing the pups along to whet their appetite!

Just one pack mind, the other 3 are GH packs with a different tactical emphasis ie assault, tank killers, consolidation whilst still being good all rounders. God i love the new codex.

[Bobman]

Really I think you should be considering fluff when making an army list, all that background is wasted otherwise.

 

Yeah in a strait comparison GH are better than BC but as with most things it's how it fits in your army. 1 pack didn't a game for anyone everything has to work well together.

 

I haven't used the new book much yet so still have a lot of toys to try, while I do think GH are now awesome I still use a BC pack in a LRC. Last game they chewed a Templars squad with Emp Champ in 1 round while only losing 3 in return.

[King Tiger]

its not just fluff that should influence you, but plain and simply do yo want them, yes or no stats be damned.

 

these days too many people give in to pressure from other players, if 1 player hears 5 other players say something is rubbish they don't take it and lose out on the fun and experience, but they also don't take them because if they do those 5 players will call him an idiot, moron, fool or newb for taking them.

 

and don't say you wouldn't people, I've seen plenty of people including mods on B&C and other forums belittle and basically bully players because of there list choices (of course these people usually have 2-3000 post so the mods ignore them completely).

 

so are blood claws worth it, nobody can answer that question expect the player using them, I've used blood claws and seen them do amazingly on the table, and so have many others, people may of used them and thought they did poorly, or underwhelmed, so they choose not to take them by choice, or the worse offenders don't take them simply because maths tells them not to, or if they did and they performed well they would lose face on forums after belittling them and the players who take them.

 

take a unit, see how they do, see if you like them, simple as that, statistics mean jack compared to experience.

[Hfran Morkai]

My argument is perfectly valid. Why would you stick a 100 point Wolf Priest with a unit that doesn't need it and will likely spend it's time shooting, two different packs for different roles, the obligatory HQ choice would be likely elsewhere.

 

I understand the packs aren't the same because they wouldn't be. (at least in my list as I tool mine up)

 

And even with two Grey Hunter packs, that's two units so two of your choices taken up and if you wish to transport them you need two transports.

 

Like any unit you just have to know how to use it.

 

Fine two similar packs against an ork mob again:

 

Wolf Guard

Powerfist

9 Grey Hunters

Meltagun

 

Wolf Guard

Powerfist

9 Blood Claws

Meltagun (For argument's sake, I wouldn't take one)

 

Grey Hunters

9 Bolt pistol shots (4.5 hits, 2.25 kills)

1 Meltagun shot (0.5 hits, call it another kill)

27 Attacks at WS4 (13 hits, 7.5 wounds, 6 kills)

3 Powerfist attacks (1.5 Hits, pretty much a kill)

9.25 Kills

 

 

Blood Claws:

9 shots at 12 inches at BS3 (3 hits, 1.5 kills)

1 Melta shot at 12 inches at BS3 (0.5 hits, one kill)

1 shot at 12 inchea at BS4 (0.5 hit, 0.25 kills)

36 Attacks at WS3 (18 hits, 9 wounds, 8 kills)

3 Powerfist attacks (1.5 hits, pretty much a kill)

11.75 kills

 

(Note this is rough as it's done without a calculator and I'm tired. Plus mathhamer is a load of rubbish in my honest opinion.)

 

Hmmmm... Blood Claws killed more...

 

Should I do a stats test to see if its significant? To be honest I don't care that much, they have uses as far as I can see.

 

I think we have to agree here that people play for different reasons, I mean I'm not running them because they don't fit into my style as my companies an armoured one and all my Land Raiders are filled so I use Skyclaws and Swiftclaws but some people want a force for fluff.

 

I know against something that will get into combat that I would rather have some Blood Claws with me.

 

And if you must know that this is the first time in my six years of the hobby I used mathammer and I don't like it because it's not my style. You want a decent close combat unit you pick Blood Claws and attach your HQ

[Bobman]

take a unit, see how they do, see if you like them, simple as that, statistics mean jack compared to experience.

 

 

A-men to that brother

[DV8]

My argument is perfectly valid. Why would you stick a 100 point Wolf Priest with a unit that doesn't need it and will likely spend it's time shooting, two different packs for different roles, the obligatory HQ choice would be likely elsewhere.

 

Not to get semantical, but no it's not. You're trying to argue the power of Blood Claws over Grey Hunters, okay fine. I have nothing wrong with that. But then you have to compare two equal pools, to get the most objective, unbiased result. Hell you could spend all the points you want on the Blood Claws, just to "prove your point" that Blood Claws are more powerful than Grey Hunters, but then that doesn't negate the fact that you're spending much more points to make the Blood Claws better.

 

Grey Hunters

9 Bolt pistol shots (4.5 hits, 2.25 kills)

1 Meltagun shot (0.5 hits, call it another kill)

27 Attacks at WS4 (13 hits, 7.5 wounds, 6 kills)

3 Powerfist attacks (1.5 Hits, pretty much a kill)

9.25 Kills

 

 

Blood Claws:

9 shots at 12 inches at BS3 (3 hits, 1.5 kills)

1 Melta shot at 12 inches at BS3 (0.5 hits, one kill)

1 shot at 12 inchea at BS4 (0.5 hit, 0.25 kills)

36 Attacks at WS3 (18 hits, 9 wounds, 8 kills)

3 Powerfist attacks (1.5 hits, pretty much a kill)

11.75 kills

 

You're right, on the charge Blood Claws should kill more. They do, afterall, have an extra 9 attacks (assuming it's only 9 + Pack Leader). But you'll notice that the gap in kills is marginal at best, and you're also not taking into consideration that the Grey Hunters have a model with Mark of the Wulfen, which with rending and the bonus D6 attacks, can stack up more kills.

 

As as I mentioned before, if you're locked down in combat for more than one round, Grey Hunters win out with Mark of the Wulfen (more attacks). Plus you're only considering the "combat" aspect of the two units. What about shooting? I think we can all agree that Grey Hunters have the advantage, and can/will rack up more kills than the Blood Claws with their Bolters, before making combat.

 

Also, yes you're right, Blood Claws have an advantage of numbers, being able take up to 15 models, however, you have to think of logistics. They're only 1 Troops choice, while 20 Grey Hunters is 2 (so more scoring units). And transportation, only a Land Raider can hold that many models (meaning more points spent) just to get em across the table fast, unless you want to hoof it up (meaning they're slower, and can/will take fire).

 

Besides....how often do we max out on all 6 Troops choices unless it's nearing Apocalypse sized games, and even then does the difference in 5 or 10 models (assuming you take a mix) really matter at that point level? If you take all Blood Claws then that's a sizeable boost in numbers (90 Blood Claws vs 60 Grey Hunters, but then you run into the problems of transport, they'll be stuck running, unless you start taking Land Raiders, PLUS with that many Blood Claws, chances are your army is geared towards a melee, have-at-them no hold barred force.

 

I won't even bother getting into how boring a force that would be to play, nor how tactically limiting it actually is.

 

My point being, side by side comparison, there's no reason to take Blood Claws over Grey Hunters. To me, the only time I would ever choose Blood Claws over Grey Hunters is for fluff (at which point every other argument is moot), or if my army was geared around a solid spearhead of Blood Claws.

 

 

DV8

[Hfran Morkai]

Well you yourself just compared a pack with the mark to a pack without, so you're just as bad as me for that one. (I jest, I was a bit naughty but if you want some claws you do kind of need to support them, Grey Hunters do fine by themselves)

 

 

 

The question was "Are Blood Claws worth it?"

 

My answer to this would be: It depends on your list and your playing style. I think that they have a definite role in some forces for clearing objectives but they do need some form of boost to them to make them tactical in any sense. I have no problem with the idea of paying fifteen points for a scout in power armour with four attacks on the charge, it appears I'm one of the minority but then again I'm not really known for choosing competitive things, I roll with what I like.

 

You want a generalist, fairly boring bog standard unit then you choose your Grey Hunters, you want a fun and more difficult unit to use then you take some Blood Claws.

 

So it depends on your personal tastes, some people see the change from being overpowered and some see an opportunity, whether it actually exists or not, I'll get back to you on that.

 

(All views presented in this post are the opinions of the author. He bears full responsibility for annoying anyone with his own sense of logic, which may be faulty)

 

I think I'll leave this before it develops into a full blown argument.

[DV8]

Not really an argument, more just a discussion/debate. No fighting words have been thrown around yet :)

 

But like you say (and I agree wholeheartedly), Blood Claws require more support than Grey Hunters to really pull their weight around. Which is fine for people who want to or choose to use them.

 

As for Grey Hunters, I'd like to think of them as generalists, and tactically flexible (I can stand and shoot when I want, or charge into combat when I want), as opposed to "boring and standard". They do well enough for me so I can't complain.

 

And if you noticed, I gave the Grey Hunters a Mark of the Wulfen, while I gave the Blood Claws 2 Power Fists (Pack Leader + regular infantry). These are options available to the units, without extra units thrown on (re: Wolf Priests) to boost them.

 

The bottom line is this:

 

If you like Blood Claws, and want the challenge/thrill of a close combat "specialist", by all means take Blood Claws. But expect to be spending the extra points to support them.

 

 

DV8

[Hfran Morkai]

And if you noticed, I gave the Grey Hunters a Mark of the Wulfen, while I gave the Blood Claws 2 Power Fists (Pack Leader + regular infantry). These are options available to the units, without extra units thrown on (re: Wolf Priests) to boost them.

 

I failed to notice that one so I apologise.

 

My point is you have to invest at least 70 points into an HQ anyway to have a legal force so why not put it with the guys meant to be bashing things in up close.

 

Also a handy technique with transport is a unit that will fit into a rhino, move it as fast as possible, pop smoke when needed and turn it sideways, having your guys jump out behind it, then next turn you assault with them.

 

There are more effective units out there but I think these guys are for fun as opposed to a serious list but the best way to find out is try, I myself will be trying out Blood Claws in the new codex to see if I can make them interesting and fun to use. The role for them has changed and so must I.

 

I shouldn't be worrying myself with mathhamer and effectiveness, I need to stick with what I know and enjoy, I promise not to do it for a long time!

 

And as a final note I put a bit of a slur on the Grey Hunters. I tried to make them seem boring and pretty standard when they are in fact a very good choice, I just wanted to stick up for the Blood Claws and that prevented me making a fair case for them.

 

I hope you can forgive me for being a bit of a crusading muppet who's determined to prove people wrong.

[DV8]

Haha no worries man.

 

I just love the imagery of Bolter-armed marines advancing up laying down withering fusillades of fire, before charging in with a howl. So I tend to run an up-in-your face army all mounted in Rhinos (with 1 Drop Pod) that zips up and puts pressure as quickly as possible.

 

One technique I actually like to use:

 

Enemy units A

 

[Rhino][Rhino][Rhino]

Lots of Grey Hunters

 

Enemy units B

 

Use my Rhinos as a spearhead to split the enemy army in two, and to block LoS while I tear apart the units I can see (typically the "Enemy units B" is a small fraction of the enemy army, allowing me to use superior numbers to take them down asap.

 

 

DV8

[Valerian]

Mikal,

 

In both of the posts where you provided the Math-hammering, you failed to reflect the Ballistic Skill of the Hunters properly, having them hit only half of the time, rather than two-thirds of the time. You may want to go back and edit those posts to reflect the correct numbers.

 

V

[Hfran Morkai]

Mikal,

 

In both of the posts where you provided the Math-hammering, you failed to reflect the Ballistic Skill of the Hunters properly, having them hit only half of the time, rather than two-thirds of the time. You may want to go back and edit those posts to reflect the correct numbers.

 

V

 

I've realised that and that's one of the reason's I don't do this stuff. I was working without a calculator and as has been discussed the point is pretty moot. The wounds will be incredibly similar.

 

I'm too lazy to edit/fix something I shouldn't have done in the first place and just made myself look a bigger plonker.

 

But thanks for pointing it out.

 

Little if no difference if shooting is accounted for properly, in fact more likely the Hunters will do better but I'm determined to use my whelps again because of this topic.

[The WarpGhost]

Simple answer:

 

Are Blood Claws worth it? Yes. 15 points for a Counter-attacking, 2ccw-wielding, 4 attack-charging, special weapon/plasma pistol/powerfist-toting MEQ Troop choice is a good investment.

 

Grey Hunters are just more worth it in many cases.

[Pavement Artist]

Im lobbing another pack into my list. They're completely worth it mate, purely for the joy of charging ork mobs and grabbing your own fistfuls of dice. It's almost....poetic.

 

I won a combat against an ork boyz mob by 14 last week thanks to the spritely buggers

[Iacton Qruze]

I think the BCs are alright, the problem is that I can put them on a bike for 10 points or give them a JP for 3. Both of those things are better for keeping them on the move and making sure you outmaneuver your opponent and get the charge on him.

 

keeping them on foot and buying a crusader is a ton of points compared to a 150 give or take for a bike or JP squad that will have a little more versatility in the long run.