Bladeheart Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi all, long time fantasy player and thought about playing 40k off and on. Had a brief stint with Grey Knights, but didn't follow through. I'm now thinking of starting with CSM, most notably Alpha Legion and I just want to ask for some advice. Is CSM a good army to start out with (If it's not, any suggestions on what is a good starting army?) I haven't bought the CSM codex yet, but is there specific legion codex's out there, or would the generic Codex: Chaos Space Marines be enough? Is there any difference from playing a vanilla CSM army, if there is such as a thing, versus a legion specific one? Thanks in advance for your inputs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Is CSM a good army to start out with (If it's not, any suggestions on what is a good starting army?) I think so. The reason is simple, Chaos has excellent troop choices and troops are a big part of 5th Edition game play. I haven't bought the CSM codex yet, but is there specific legion codex's out there, or would the generic Codex: Chaos Space Marines be enough? There isn't any legion specific codicis (spelling) out there. Maybe one day but who knows, so Coded CSM is what you need. Is there any difference from playing a vanilla CSM army, if there is such as a thing, versus a legion specific one? Thats a loaded question for alot of people. Without going into a huge side rant, alot of people are upset because the most recent Chaos codex seems to emphasize "renegade" armies instead of "legion" armies. The difference being its harder to have a competitive all World Eaters army then to have an army with Khorne Beserkers in it. That being said, you do have the tools to play a single legion army if you're creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVIL INC Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Is CSM a good army to start out with (If it's not, any suggestions on what is a good starting army?) Yes, as others have mentioned. Chaos has some of the best basic troops in the game. Chaos is a very forgiving army to play and allows for some great conversions and flexibility. I haven't bought the CSM codex yet, but is there specific legion codex's out there, or would the generic Codex: Chaos Space Marines be enough? There is only the basic chaos marines codex. Luckily for us though, it is flexible enough to allow for a variety of specific legion lists that are perfectly fluffy and fun to use as well as being very competative. All you need is a basic knowledge of the fluff to make great legions lists out of the codex. make sure you know your fluff though as there are MANY versions and interpretations out there so your likely to have people complain that it "doesnt fit" or that you "have it all wrong". Ignore them as it is YOUR army based on YOUR favorite version and interpretation. Is there any difference from playing a vanilla CSM army, if there is such as a thing, versus a legion specific one? Yes, a legion list will have a different "feel" and playstyle from your average vanilla list. Go with what feels right for you. Welcome aboard. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 It's Codexes (according to GW btw, although actual in actual English it's codices). How difficult is it to turn Loyalists into their Chaotic counterparts? I've always had a little touch of Chaos, and am wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 It's Codexes (according to GW btw, although actual in actual English it's codices). Whoever at GW said that doesn't know what he's talking about. The pl. of codex is codices. (actually it's from the Greek, not English) I've even heard it argued that codex was a word that GW made up, so you could make up any word you wanted as it's pl. That was so ignorant it made me cringe. Was it Gav Thorpe that said it ? Now that wouldn't surprize me. (j/k...sorta) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Hi all, long time fantasy player and thought about playing 40k Is CSM a good army to start out with is there specific legion codex's out there, or would the generic Codex: Chaos Space Marines be enough? Is there any difference from playing a vanilla CSM army, if there is such as a thing, versus a legion specific one? 1- played WHFB for years, started playing 40k and never played FB again. 40k just so much faster, more action game, way more ballanced between the armies too (not perfect but far better then FB) 2- CSM (as with any marine) is a good army to start out with. B/C of pwr armor (3+ save for everybody) they are very forgiving, you can make a mistake or two and it doesn't mean you game is lost. Relatively simple army; basic, solid tactics and play will get you far. 3- Our old dex had legion rules, unfortunately this lame ass dex does not. Not saying you can't make an effect AL (or any other chaos army) out of it, but there are no longer legion rules (maybe 2-3 yrs from now :) ) 4- True legion players try to keep their army as fluffy as possible and still be effective. I guess you could say there is a difference between playing a "vanilla" csm army and a legion one, there will be things in a nilla army that you wouldn't want to take in your AL army. This does not mean that you can not make an AL army that is both fluffy and effective. A legion army has much more character and history. AL offers some really good paint/modeling/conversion oppertunities IMO, with the whole dragon/hydra/lizard/snake theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 space marines ( loyalist of traitor) are always a good first army, they are hard and versitle, good allrounders really. I'm now thinking of starting with CSM, most notably Alpha Legion and I just want to ask for some advice. good choice :) . if you havent already i would recomend reading legion, i was on the fence about what traitor legion to start untill i read that book.also follow my sig for more inspiration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVIL INC Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 If you have any knowledge of the fluff (any version of it as GW changes it more often then they change thier underwear lol), you can easily make a perfectly fluffy legion list. Actually, much more accurate ly then was allowed by the lame watered down one page inserts the last codex had (not that it was a bad codex, it served the purpose just as this one does). The ONLY difference is that now youare able to make the more varied (chaotic) legion lists that the original versions of the lists allowed for before being watered down. Be carefull of those who would put the codex down because they personally dont like it. Make your own decision as that will be based on your own views rather then having someone force thiers on you. I would suggest to the O.P. that they do some research of the fluff and decide which version you like (if you want to make a legion list) and then use your knowledge and the codex to make your list. You may need to do some "counts as" the same as you did with the last codex but the end result will be something you can be proud of and have a lot of fun with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yes, a legion list will have a different "feel" and playstyle from your average vanilla list. Go with what feels right for you. do by different feel you mean that one army is 2 DPS 4 csm and 4 oblits + termicid and the other one 2DPs 2pms 2 zerker and 4 oblits +termcid . because there absolutlly 0 difference between chaos armies right now[game playwise] . all are short range assault lists with DPs and oblits being the best support/hq options and termicid being the best anti tank meta . The "lame" and "wated down " 3,5 dex gave armies that had different game play . A 1ksons thrall sorc build played totally different then IW or an AL infiltration army . Sure there were better and worse armies , but all were different and they at least had fluff in the codex [there is close to 0 fluff about legions in the new one] . The more varid spec of the thorpe dex does not make the chaos armies/lists different , in fact it makes them all look the same , specially as the gap between units for each slot are huge. A DP is a lot better then a lord or sorc, a a pms/zerker mix is superior to anything the other cults can do , elites other then terminators are border line unplayable etc etc. So dont go one telling how armies are different in the new dex. Unless by different you mean the same build everyone else uses , but painted in a different way. As the questions go. Yes chaos is easy to start with , just like all space marine armies. S/T 4 and two attacks minimum on each guy with +3 save makes it very easy to learn how to play and how to us the units from the codex[specially as there arent many to choose from]. But if you like to change lists from time to time or try out new builds then the sm or sw codex is probablly the better one for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladeheart Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 Those are some nice inputs guys, appreciate it. From a fluff base point of view, I was actually interested in either Thousand Sons, or Alpha Legion. I've read at the very least their backstory and history and I've found it quite interesting (On the Alpha Legion being secretly loyal to the Emperor, does it have any truth in it?). Hopefully this weekend I can get a hold of the CSM Codex. :woot: Thanks again for the advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 (On the Alpha Legion being secretly loyal to the Emperor, does it have any truth in it?) No. Perhaps that was (according to that particular Black Library author. was it Abnett?) the original idea, but for the last 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has built hidden bases all throughout the Imperium and from them has harrassed the Imperium with constant attacks and rebellions. They are now firmly in league with Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 (On the Alpha Legion being secretly loyal to the Emperor, does it have any truth in it?) No. Perhaps that was (according to that particular Black Library author. was it Abnett?) the original idea, but for the last 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has built hidden bases all throughout the Imperium and from them has harrassed the Imperium with constant attacks and rebellions. They are now firmly in league with Chaos. dude they can be loyal or chaos, whatever you want. thats the good thing about the fluff, its open ended enough for YOU to choose. and IF you want them to be still loyal....do it they are after all your models. people that say "there is no way they are still loyal" or "they are definitly still loyal" either way still dont know. make em how YOU want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 do it they are after all your models. make em how YOU want. This is an inappropriate amount of free thinking. The chaos gods would not be pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Hey there. Your best bet is to simply get ahold of the current codex and have a thorough read. Some people like it, many people do not; it all depends on what you want out of your army and what you play for. If you enjoy the role playing and baxkground element of 40K, Chaos is a bad place to be at the moment. If you like the competitive element and armies with extremely strong, technically user friendly builds, then you'll probably like chaos alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 do it they are after all your models. make em how YOU want. This is an inappropriate amount of free thinking. The chaos gods would not be pleased. :blink: And Minigun762 singlehandedly begins the Dark Inquisition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khavos Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 (On the Alpha Legion being secretly loyal to the Emperor, does it have any truth in it?) No. Perhaps that was (according to that particular Black Library author. was it Abnett?) the original idea, but for the last 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has built hidden bases all throughout the Imperium and from them has harrassed the Imperium with constant attacks and rebellions. They are now firmly in league with Chaos. I'm not a fluff expert by any means, but I don't believe the Alpha Legion's motive was ever loyalty to the Emperor himself, but more a desire to not see humanity plunged into an endless cycle of suffering - and to accomplish that goal, they joined up with Chaos. It's a convoluted and contradictory story, but I believe it boils down to humanity surviving for several thousand years in a constant downward spiral if Chaos was kept at bay, whereas if Chaos were to triumph, humanity would be exterminated - mercy-killed, in the Legion's eyes - within a couple decades. The ultimate victory of Chaos will happen either way, so the Alpha Legion decided to opt for the quick, relatively painless end and side with Chaos. That said, according to what fluff I've read on them, they don't spend a lot of time hanging out in the normal Chaos stomping grounds, and I've always harbored a sneaking suspicion that the Codex: Space Marines 'dex might work just fine for representing Alpha Legion. Of course, C:CSM works just fine, too, and it's ultimately your army and your story, so you can do with it as you want. After all, the prophecy that set Alpha Legion on their Chaotic course could very well have been engineered entirely by Tzeentch to turn a too-clever-for-their-own-good loyal legion traitor. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 No. Perhaps that was (according to that particular Black Library author. was it Abnett?) the original idea, but for the last 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has built hidden bases all throughout the Imperium and from them has harrassed the Imperium with constant attacks and rebellions. They are now firmly in league with Chaos. Dude, you're saying something about the Alpha Legion is clear-cut and simple? What the hell Alpha Legion fluff have you been reading? Nothing has been written on them since Legion, so therefore it's entirely open as to whether the Legion has a whole has fallen to Chaos. Sure, some might, but that doesn't give you the authority to state that all Alpha Legion have fallen. Plus, I never knew that simply attacking the Imperium means they've turned to Chaos. Does that mean the Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar are Chaos worshippers too? After all, they attack the Imperium, which is the one piece of proof you've provided for how the Alpha Legion are now Chaos worshippers. You also have to remember that all Black Library stuff gets passed through Merret first (or at least the Horus Heresy stuff does), so whatever Abnett wrote, Merret approved. It isn't just one guys crazy idea. To answer the OP, they're the Alpha Legion. No-one knows what the hell they're doing, so its entirely up to you what their motives are. They could have fallen, they could still be loyal to humanity, they could directly work for the Cabal. This is the one Legion where practically every piece of first-hand information we have on them can be argued to be misinformation spread by Legion operatives, with the exception of Legion, but that book was so well written that you can draw numerous conclusions from it, depending on how you interpret the events in the book, and who you think was who at what time. The only thing we really know for certain is that they're Marines, they had a Primarch called Alpharius (and a certain other guy too), were the 20th Legion, and they fight against the Imperium. Pretty much everything else can be debated. Did Alpharius get killed by Guilliman? Do they worship Chaos, and if so what God/s? Do they fight for humanity? Do they help the Cabal? It can all be argued, as pretty much every scrap of information we have is either second-hand, is vague, or has been compromised in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Plus, I never knew that simply attacking the Imperium means they've turned to Chaos. Does that mean the Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar are Chaos worshippers too? After all, they attack the Imperium, which is the one piece of proof you've provided for how the Alpha Legion are now Chaos worshippers. The Index Astartes describes mutations among them, them supporting Cultists and fighting alongside daemons. The 3.5 Codex describes them fighting alongside daemons. Unless you claim that they are fooling everyone by fighting with daemons only so the other chaos forces believe they are on their side the GW fluff for the Alpha Legion is not at all ambiguous. But perhaps you are also one who subscribes to the idea that the Black Library Horus Heresy novels invalidate all Codex Books and other background sources that ever were. And even then the Horus Heresy noveld do not really contradict that the Alpha Legion is in league with chaos now. All it does AFAIK is changing the motivation for why they turned from wanting to prove their prowess in combat with other Marines to some tragic hero angle. It does not say whether or not they managed to stay on their path or were finally corrupted. If any GW fluff for the Alpha Legion ever written is any indication, they did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 It does not say whether or not they managed to stay on their path or were finally corrupted. If any GW fluff for the Alpha Legion ever written is any indication, they did not. Background also states the Raven Guard have mutations, so it isn't necessarily a sign of Chaos-worship, only corrupted geneseed. It also states that the Alpha Legion never summon daemons themselves, preferring to let cultists do that, something that can be interpreted in two ways. Either the Alpha Legion simply don't care for performing the rituals etc themselves, or they find daemons distasteful, and so try to distance themselves from them. Plus, Night Lords use daemons without worshipping the Chaos Gods, so daemon use isn't a signifier of Chaos worship. Its a damn strong hint, but it doesn't guarantee that they do. As for being "one who subscribes to the idea that the Black Library Horus Heresy novels invalidate all Codex Books and other background sources that ever were", thats a rather demeaning way of looking at it. I follow what fluff exists, until another source comes out and contradicts it. That includes both codices and the Horus Heresy books (which go through a more stringent review process than plain BL, from what I remember). Legion has been released, and gives an alternate reason that the Alpha Legion turned traitor, other than "I don't like Guilliman, and Horus will let me beat him up. Go Horus!" With what we know about the Alpha Legion, and their secretive ways, we should always place doubt on any information regarding them that has been even slightly contradicted by other sources. With Legion, that necessarily places doubt on exactly why the Alpha Legion are doing what they're doing now. It doesn't mean one or the other is 100% right, it just means that with the Alpha Legion you should never take anything at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The most current GW source is not all thaht ambigous about the Alpha Legion's nature. The Inquisition hold a special loathing for the Chaos Space Marines of the Alpha Legion for their part in spreading these iniquitous daemon cults and fanning the embers of heresy into raging fires of rebellion. Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 20 - They are refered to as "Chaos Space Marines". Not traitors or renegades. Chaos. It was members of the Alpha Legion who led to the eventual destruction of the Emperor's Swords Chapter midway through the 40th Millennium. (...lengthy description how the Alpha Legion infiltrated and turned large portions of the Chapter...) The Emperor's Swords were not the first Chapter split by the corruption of Chaos, and certainly will not be the last. Battle brother against battle brother, Company against Company, the Dark Gods of Chaos can bring division and death even to Chapters that few would ever doubt. Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 21 - The Emperor's Swords have been corrupted to follow Chaos by the Alpha Legion. I thought about quoting parts from the past Codices and Index Astartes as well, but I thought perhaps the current source is enough. If 4 Codices and the Index Astartes are supposed to be partially invalidated I would like a little more than a novel for that. Not everyone who wants to start Alpha Legion will buy the Black Library novel. But pretty much everyone will buy the Codex Chaos Space Marines (or "organize" it). For that reason alone the Codex will allwas trump Black Library in terms of canonicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 do it they are after all your models. make em how YOU want. This is an inappropriate amount of free thinking. The chaos gods would not be pleased. :rolleyes: And Minigun762 singlehandedly begins the Dark Inquisition... NO ONE EXPECTS THE CHAOS INQUISITION Regardless, we already have a topic crammed full of arguments about fluffy lists being full of the same choices as the cookie cutter lists, lets not bring it in here, he wants help, not ranting from old players. Also, take my word for it, don't accept most of Black Legion's :tu: because they exaggerate what's written in the codices to make a better story (most of them suck anyway) C.S. Goto especially. Legion just took that Alpha Legion didn't have that well known of a background and twisted it to make a LOL SURPRISE LOYALTY :tu:-up. Codices come first, main rulebook comes second, then BL books come next if everyone agrees on it and they don't interfere with the real written material. The only people who will argue for BL are the ones who have a hard on for those books. IIRC somewhere was announced that BL was not to be taken as cannon fluff unless GW specifically states this. I'm looking forward for the new Chaos codex to throw everything Legion said out the window. There is an AL player who has composed a list of AL history, it's huge, but I forgot his name and where his blog is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 IIRC somewhere was announced that BL was not to be taken as cannon fluff unless GW specifically states this. Unfortunately there are conflicting reports. Dan Abnett (BL Author) has reportedly stated at a convention that the Horus Heresy Novels are done in close cooperation with Alan Merrett and are totally canon and overwrite all previous sources. George Man (something like BL head editor at that point) on the other hand has reportedly stated at an investors conference that only Studio Material (Rulebook, Codices, White Dwarf) is canonically binding when new material is written, while Black Library material only has the intention to tell good stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I forget who the quote was originally from, but I subscribe to the idea that in the grimdark future, you can never know the whole truth. At best you know pieces of it and at worst you hear only lies and propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (On the Alpha Legion being secretly loyal to the Emperor, does it have any truth in it?) No. Perhaps that was (according to that particular Black Library author. was it Abnett?) the original idea, but for the last 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has built hidden bases all throughout the Imperium and from them has harrassed the Imperium with constant attacks and rebellions. They are now firmly in league with Chaos. It's a convoluted and contradictory story LOL Welcome to Alpha Legion...... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The most current GW source is not all thaht ambigous about the Alpha Legion's nature. The Inquisition hold a special loathing for the Chaos Space Marines of the Alpha Legion for their part in spreading these iniquitous daemon cults and fanning the embers of heresy into raging fires of rebellion. Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 20 - They are refered to as "Chaos Space Marines". Not traitors or renegades. Chaos. It was members of the Alpha Legion who led to the eventual destruction of the Emperor's Swords Chapter midway through the 40th Millennium. (...lengthy description how the Alpha Legion infiltrated and turned large portions of the Chapter...) The Emperor's Swords were not the first Chapter split by the corruption of Chaos, and certainly will not be the last. Battle brother against battle brother, Company against Company, the Dark Gods of Chaos can bring division and death even to Chapters that few would ever doubt. Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 21 - The Emperor's Swords have been corrupted to follow Chaos by the Alpha Legion. I thought about quoting parts from the past Codices and Index Astartes as well, but I thought perhaps the current source is enough. If 4 Codices and the Index Astartes are supposed to be partially invalidated I would like a little more than a novel for that. Not everyone who wants to start Alpha Legion will buy the Black Library novel. But pretty much everyone will buy the Codex Chaos Space Marines (or "organize" it). For that reason alone the Codex will allwas trump Black Library in terms of canonicity. Ah yes, the =][= argument.... And how many times has the =][= been the source of a problem in the Imperium, rather than the solution? I can point to numerous examples of it, and not just in BL material. Most Imperium Codices are written from an Imperial POV, which is limited, as Imperial Intel isn't the best in the world. All the other codices are written from that army's POV, and contain more truth in them than similar info in the Imperial books. And you always have to suspect any info about AL, due to that is the one thing that has not changed in 10K years, their secrecy and unknown motivations, something which has been canon since IA first came out in the White Dwarfs. I rest my case. To the OP, to build an AL army with the current book, you need to use all UNMARKED units, and give out the Icon of Chaos Glory like it's candy. Try to avoid using a lot of Termie armor, and use more Chosen instead. Use very little daemons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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