Tactical Error?

[Archon_77]

What follows is a batrep and a tactical question for the community as a whole:

 

The game is a thousand (I got 1100, planetstrike goodness) points with myself (Pure GK) against an Imperial and Chaos Daemon force ( 500 pts each ). I bring:

 

2 squads of PAGK 7 each

1 GM, Retinue of 4 termies

LRC

 

They have:

Daemons (Struggle here with names)

Giant dude riding a Rhinocerus (IC; joins a squad of what I think are bloodletters)

Bloodletter unit

 

Imperial (Traitor)

1 Command squad with astropath and psyker

1 Squad of random dudes that get rolled as "Knife fighters", they have lasguns

1 Squad of random dudes that get rolled as "Gunslingers", more lasguns here

 

 

The scenario is capture and control, my point being in the SW corner of the table, and theirs being straight North.

Deployment is dawn of war

 

They win the roll and force me to go first, I choose to deploy 1 unit of PAGK inside my objective which I have set up in a wrecked building, they deploy the Imperial command squad about 20 inches away behind a building. They ignore their own objective. No LoS for either unit and turn 1 goes completely uneventfully.

 

Turn 2:

Here is where I may have made a tactical error. I chose at the beginning of the game to hold my HQ termies in reserve to deepstrike with the hope of challenging their point later in the game with the idea that the LRC, and 2 units of PAGK's would hold my own objective and that the termies can push the enemy off theirs. I roll to get my HQ on the board and it doesn't happen. The 2nd unit of PAGK come on board inside the LRC, the tank advances 6" in the hopes that the command squad the imperial dropped will come out of cover next turn, OR to place it in good position for when the daemons show up. There is still nothing to shoot at, my turn ends.

 

The daemon player gets his first wave of daemons in and drops the Rhinobeastie right outside my point, just out of assault range. The imperial rolls his battle tank on board, and starts rolling for his 2 troops to show, which they don't. The psycher unit gets into LoS and hits my 7 knights on objective pretty hard and I lose 2, which is nice because I had to save 7 times after he got thru the Aegis. The imperial tank takes a potshot with some kind of ordinace at my tank, he scatters out of harms way. Turn ends

 

Turn 3

That's what I'm talking about, something to shoot at. I roll for my HQ and they STILL haven't shown up. I move my 5 PAGK off my own objective both to get out of LoS on the pesky psycher, and also to get some incinerator goodness on the Rhinobeastie unit, they open up and take out 6 troops and put a wound on the big guy. More shooty as the LRC moves 6" and opens up everything it has on the Rhinounit as well, managing to take out all but 2 of the littles in the unit and placing another wound on the beastie. This is actually a huge disappointment for 2 reasons, the first being that Had I moved 12" with the first turn move I could have rapidfired, and second because with the volumn of fire I had it should have been able to wipe that unit off the table.. unfortunatly a LRC placing a total of 5 wounds into the unit combined with great saving by the daemons means they are still around. Still, I feel pretty good knowing that there is currently ONE unit in the game that can take out my LRC, and thats statistically very very difficult for it to do.

 

The daemons go first and drop their unit of bloodletters about 6 inches from my LRC on the North side, again ignoring their own objective. The imperial troop choices show up immediately west of my objective, also ignoring their own objective. The psycher and tank advance. The imperial does nothing to my forces, with his ordinance scattering on the LRC again, and the Aegis coming thru for me on his psycher, saving my 5 PAGK for now. Things don't go so well with the daemon's turn and he assaults my Troops and wipes them out to the man without taking anything in return. Whats worse, he consolidates the full 6 inches into my objective, and well within assault range of my LRC. Turn ends, and I badly miss my HQ, and newly destroyed scoring unit.

 

Turn 4

Hell in a handbasket. I finally manage to get my HQ on the board, and decide to drop them near my objective behind my LRC and slightly to the north to make sure they can assault my own objective and hold it with the combined Imperials and Bloodletters coming on fast. The LRC moves 4 inches to open rapid fire on the psycher unit, as the Rhinobeastie's awesome consolidation last turn has left him out of LoS. The Termies open fire on the bloodletters after moving ever closer to them, thinning them out to 8 units total which is a stroke of luck. The LRC also does well, eliminated the Imperial Psycher unit down to just an Astropath and The company commander (placing a wound on him to boot). My turn ends, and still I'm worried that I am missing 1 of my 2 scoring units.

 

The imperials go first and move the "Knife Fighter" Troops closer to my objective, as they really can't do anything else. The "Gunslinger" Unit opens up into my terms, and good saves make everything not matter. Same thing happens with the former psychers unit, and his tank again scatters away from everything (shooting at the termies this time). The daemons go, and the bloodletters advance towards my LRC as they can do little else. The rhinobeastie moves and assualts my LRC. In a stroke of unbelieveable luck, he manages to Pen my Raider and it EXPLODES! (I have never seen so many consecutive sixes rolled in my life) The only good news is it blows the full 6", which eats a few more of the littles in the beastie unit and manages to catch 3 of the 8 remaining bloodletters. My losses to the exploding badness is 2 PAGK, leaving the squad with 5. However, this move is absolutely devastating as the LRC was going to be nigh unstoppable for the rest of the game and was going to be able to give me a chance to win it by parking on my objective and eating imperials and Bloodletters. Things are not looking good at all.

 

Turn 5.

A New Hope. My one remaining scoring unit is between a rock and several hard places, being completely surrounded by the enemy. I do not expect them to last at all thru turn 5. I have them open fire into the bloodletters and thin them down to 3 remaining units. The Termies open fire into the rhinobeastie , placing another wound on him and killing off the rest of his littles. My PAGK assault the bloodletters in a complete desparation move to keep them from being waxed by sheer imperial fire on their turm (tarpitting) Huge risk here as Bloodletters are awesome in CC, and I'm in very real danger of having my scoring units wiped off the board completely. However, there are only three of them and I if I lose three that still gives me 4 attacks to the enemy unit. The assualt goes crazy well with me killing all three bloodletters while only losing 2 PAGK, whats more I get to consolidate 6 inches and move them closer to the ENEMY objective, while getting them out of range of all imperial fire. My Termie Units charge the Rhinoceres and Smoke him in a hail of Nemesis force death. They dont consolidate nearly as well and only get to move 1 inch towards MY objective (this is really really too bad, as if they had moved 4", they would have been contesting it). My turn ends, and I'm still thinking Draw if I can get an extra turn in, loss if I don't.

 

The daemon player is tabled, so He runs for a slice of pizza and a soda, watches intently.

The imperial Gunslingers move 6" to challenge my termies, and the command squad moves to shoot at my 3 remaining PAGK. His tank manages to finally drop its template to where it can try for damage on my termies, but they once again come thru on saves. Fire into my termies by the Gunslinger unit is equally ineffective. His command squad opens fire on my PAGK to no avail as well. Then it gets really interesting as his imperial HQ charges my 3 PAGK, he takes out one of my units, but I knock him down to a point where the unit runs. I win initiative and cut them all down. I consolidate the full six inches towards THEIR objective, placing me 8 inches from it. Holy crap... I can now go for a win instead of a draw on the next turn. Whats more, his gunslingers assault my terminators and due to my Higher init, I put 11 wounds into the squad, and all 7 die horribly. I roll to consolidate and agonizingly get only ONE more inch towards my own objective, placing me a measly 2 inches from being able to contest. Turn 5 ends, and I roll a 1 to continue, thus leading to handshakes for everyone and a loss for me.

 

Finally, after that long game and turning it over and over in my mind since, my question for the community is thus: Is it better now to get your HQ/Terminator units on the Board ASAP or to deep strke them as a whole? I realize it would have definately been the better move for this particular game, but I'm wondering now if in 5th its better to have them sooner than later; particularly since about 60% of my games end up with me thinking that having the termies sooner rather than later would have been nice. Anyone else noticing this or is it just me?

[SamaNagol]

Deep Striking terminators against Daemons is fine because if they charge you, they roll difficult terrain and strike at initiative 1. Which means they die.

 

However in general its best to have them in a LR. In his list I cant see anything that could have actually killed your raider. You should have shot him to pieces whilst he approached you and drove the LRC up the middle of the board with 1 unit of PAGK insid and parked on top of his objective, never getting out.

[number6]

IMHO, your first tactical error is in your list. One raider being your only vehicle and also springing for a GM and terminators. It's too top-heavy a list to be that scary or effective. You've just telegraphed to your opponent exactly what they have to kill to win the game. GK armies have a terrible enough model count as it is, but you've made it worse.

 

So I'd either go with a Silent Requiem styled dual raider 1000 pt list (no GM, of course), or drop the raider and get a pair of dreads in its place. (Maybe even 3 of them.) Plus drop the GM and termie retinue for a single BC and then PAGKs to finish off the list.

 

That will give you the right tools to actually make solid tactical decisions with. Your current list isn't flexible enough to be that potent.

[Archon_77]

Deep Striking terminators against Daemons is fine because if they charge you, they roll difficult terrain and strike at initiative 1. Which means they die.

 

However in general its best to have them in a LR. In his list I cant see anything that could have actually killed your raider. You should have shot him to pieces whilst he approached you and drove the LRC up the middle of the board with 1 unit of PAGK insid and parked on top of his objective, never getting out.

 

 

How exactly is it that they strike at Init 1? I know they suffer a -1 to Leadership due to Rites of Exorcism. . .

[panbient]

i think the other big issue with this situation is the breakdown of the armies on each side.

 

sure the points balance out, but the force organizations do not. you end up facing twice as many HQs and troop choices. consider the fact that half of the batrep turns more or less start with the same comment - and.... i still don't have my HQ :)

 

you also seemed to put too much stock in how things were supposed to happen and not enough on how things actually were happening. it doesn't matter that only one unit is supposed to be statistically capable of taking out a LRC. so long as there are still dices to be rolled there's a possibility for anything.

[SamaNagol]

Deep Striking terminators against Daemons is fine because if they charge you, they roll difficult terrain and strike at initiative 1. Which means they die.

 

However in general its best to have them in a LR. In his list I cant see anything that could have actually killed your raider. You should have shot him to pieces whilst he approached you and drove the LRC up the middle of the board with 1 unit of PAGK insid and parked on top of his objective, never getting out.

 

 

How exactly is it that they strike at Init 1? I know they suffer a -1 to Leadership due to Rites of Exorcism. . .

 

When Daemons charge Grey Knights, they are forced to take a difficult terrain test as per the codex. If you look in the Rulebook, any model that has to roll difficult terrain when making an assault move counts as initiative 1 in combat unless they have assault grenades. Daemons do not, ergo if they charge Grey Knights, they strike at I1. A VERY VERY VERY important rule that you should know.

[Brother Swas]

Were you actually playing planetstrike? If so, several rules were mishandled. If not, you both outgun and outassault both army lists posted. Just make sure to manuever more and only get engaged by part of their lists at a time, and you'd be fine.

[Archon_77]

Were you actually playing planetstrike? If so, several rules were mishandled. If not, you both outgun and outassault both army lists posted. Just make sure to manuever more and only get engaged by part of their lists at a time, and you'd be fine.

 

 

We were, but I was thinking things were a little off as well, it was the first game in our campaign, and I was playing against the guy that owns the book and our default rules master when it comes to this scenario. He has however, a bit of history with tipping the scales in his favor if possible, so it would not be a surprise to me if that is what has happend.

[Archon_77]

When Daemons charge Grey Knights, they are forced to take a difficult terrain test as per the codex. If you look in the Rulebook, any model that has to roll difficult terrain when making an assault move counts as initiative 1 in combat unless they have assault grenades. Daemons do not, ergo if they charge Grey Knights, they strike at I1. A VERY VERY VERY important rule that you should know.

 

 

Holy. Crap. Thats a big one to miss. Pretty sure once I tell the 2 daemon players in my group about this I will never play them again.