Wolfwing lists, tactics and discussion

[krewl]

Hello fellow Marine players of the hairy and beer drinking variaty,

 

Introduction

I have been a WH 40K player for about 15(ish) years, starting in 2nd edition with the Codex Angels of Darkness, which was a dual codex with Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I mostly played with some friends and family so nothing to serious. Around the start of 3rd edition I lost interest as life got in the way (Concerts, festivals, beer and girls al seemed a bit more interesting, and my parents also bothered me about a school thing, but I didn't see the importance in that off course.) Still, I did not through everything away and put it in a box which I unearthed a few years later as 4th edition just popped up. I re-entered the hobby and I kinda got hooked. I played mainly Dark Angels, but I also have Grey Knights now, gave the SM codex a try, tried pure ravenwing 2 years ago and I have a huge collection of unpainted Orks and nids to start 2 more army's (someday....). Nowadays I play 5+ tournaments per year as I really like the hobby and tournaments are great to meet new people and face different opponents and army's from your local game club (Which I also frequent quite a lot.) Because of this I am always reading other codexes and I have all codexes from 2nd ed. up (I think). You could say that I like to build lists and be competative, and for that I will use any ruleset I feel like.

 

 

Reason for this post

In the period before the current Codex Dark Angels, Dark Angels players also had a mini dex, just like the one SW players have used up until last month. With that codex we where able to field an all terminator armour force that while challenging and small was also capable of going toe to toe with almost all other armies.

The current codex kind of made that impossible. While "pure" Deathwing army's are still possible they are very limited in their playstyle, and not very competative against many army builds now populair. This is kind of by design because GW intended DW to synergise with Ravenwing (RW), which they indeed do very nicely as RW fill up some gaps the DW army now has which it did not have before. (All I shall add that I love the DeathRaven or Doublewing, as they offer a great army to play with with a nice playstyle, been my army of choice the last year) However, many people loved their " old" deathwing and want it back. This topic is to try and use the Wolf Guard units and their rules to come quite near to that old level of playability. I hope to gather both oldschool Deathwing veterans and new SW players to bundle their insights and come up with tactics, list and unit configurations that work well in this rulesset.

In my browsing of the SW forum and army list subforum I hardly found anyone excited about the wolf wing list in all terminator army, so no lists and dicussion. So I gathered I'd give it a go myself, and see if SW players also have (Or can develop) a knack for alle terminator armoured armies.

 

Disclaimer

[Edit] re-reading my post I think this comes off a bit harsh, it was not supposed to be so in your face. So I re-wrote this a bit to take some off the edge off.

I am a Dark Angel player. I made this topic on the Wolf forum to discuss a type of list witch the DA have had for a while now, but which is relativily new to SW players.

I have been a Dark Angel player for all these years, but I have painted my army models in a second founding colourscheme so I have always been free to use the SM codex for lists with different play styles, and I have done so quite a lot.

Once again a new codex is out, which contains a GW sanctioned rulesset which (As I will explain later) allows me to use my models the way I like.

As I play the game, this is my hobby, meaning that it costs me my money, time and effort to buy, build, paint and learn top play with my small soldiers.

Because I do all the effort here and I play a GW's ruleset with WYSIWYG models, I feel I have every right to play Dark Angels using the Space Wolf codex, which I know some people object to.

I know that for some the bond between them and their chosen chapter is somewhat stronger and that they might fiffer in opinion, but I feel that this should not be a reason to start a flamewar.

 

So please try to not fill this topic with replies full of stuff like:

"Traitor" (Loyalty is fine, but loyalty to plastics in a fictional universe should not anger you),

"Stealing SW rules" (Me, using them does not bar anyone from using them as well.) or

"Wait for your own update" (Why should I play another 3(-ish) years with in game disadvantages because of the colour I chose to paint them in, when a perfectly good rulesset is available for me to use?).

And I am sure there are many more, but I don't want them in this topic. :) So if you must, hate me in silence. :)

 

I say this in the disclaimer first because I have heard that type of discussion before, even in real life, and frankly I don't care for that. I did not try to type up this ammount of tekst to be called names after all.

So if it is that important for you don't read or discuss in this topic. If you are ok with it, please add, so that we might benefit from eachother.

Please note a little banter is ok, after all, you are hairy, smelly and drink a lot and I wear dresses while beeing emo... :) (uhm, come to think of it, why did a beer drinking metalhead like myself choose DA? ;) )

But keep the tone of suchs comments light to not trigger others who might misunderstand the sentiment. (Hint, smileys show a clear humorous intent, no one hears a tong in cheak tone in your written text.)

[krewl]

The Deathwing that was.

I'll start with descibing what the "Old" DW used to do and have, as I think SW players have not had the oppertunity to use these sorts of lists. This would mean that there is no previous experience with al termie armies which you can adept to the new oppertunities. As I said, Old DW was very competative because of a couple of thing, I'll list what I can rememeber/think off, it might not be complete, it doesn't have to be anyways.

 

- Bad-(rear end) of a chapter/company master with a S6 powerweapon (For a hefty price).

- Good offensive and long ranged psychic powers

- On a Ld 10 librarian with a Psychic hood to block others.

- Good ranged anti tank

-- 2 x Cyclone Missile Launcher (CML) (One shot) with the tankhunters veteran skill or

-- 2 x Assault Cannon (AC) with the same, and the old rending rule (Rending on 6's to hit or against armour a 6 would be 1d6 extra instead of 1d3.)

- Flexible combi weapon option on the sarge. (Flamer/Melta/Plasma)

 

As suchs you can see that there was quite a lot of (fire)power in that small elite army's package. Many decent anti tank options at range (Everyone knows powerfists & chainfists are fine also, but you do need to get into charge range for that.) and up close the ammount of powerfists mean businness for almost all chargers. So a DW foot army could always walk across battlefield secure in their knowledge that the other side was hurting.

 

The Deathwing that is.

Nowadays things are a bit different, and I dare say, not that much improved.

- We get 1 default character to use who has only 3 sets of weapon options.

Belial is by no means a bad character, especially with claws, but he is no absurd powerhouse either.

(S8 hurts a lot and really fast, just like teh 5+ inv save.)

- Only one CML, with one shot, also without tankhunters this is just S8 which is ok against AV 10-12, struggles against 13

and needs a huge ammount of luck for AV14 (And then the vehicle damage tables also made glancing less scary.

- No more uber rending on the Assault cannon, which als had a price hike because it was so powerfull.

So downgrading performance while upping the power ... not good. Also, only one per 5 man squad.

- DA Librarians are Meah at best. The Psychic hood is still unlimited range, granted, but Ld9 on any termie armoured libby means you roll against Ld 10 and you need to beat it..

Effectivily this makes the Psychic hood close to worthless, as you have a 72,22% chance at failing to block a power. (Feel free to correct my math if I fail)

- DA Psy powers are meah at best, very random (Flamer with S2D6 -2 and AP D6) or just a one time save (albeit one with a close to 2+ inv save.)

Note the lack of any long ranged power.

- We gained the (Then) unique ability to have mixed CC and tactical terminators in a squad.

- No more wargear for the sarge.

- Default weapon (if we had the points) turned into the Assault cannon, even though it was underpowered and overpriced.

A 1 shot CML was just not good enough for nearly anything, and a Heavy flamer while good is just to short ranged.

(Most people used these if they needed a 5pts fill somewhere and could not afford another AC.)

- They did gain deathwing assault, making it possible to deepstrike 1/2 of your reserved squads in turn 1.

This is a mixed blessing, when scatter works in your favor it's great, the other way around it hurts a lot.

Joining with RW minimised the Deepstrike risk in 99% of the cases.

- Another bright side is off course the Deathwing banner and apothecary who are without a doubt very usefull.

 

In general, you see a strong pattern. Less firepower, and no more ranged Firepower over 24", a strongly diminished ability to pop armour (if not in CC), weak resistence against Psy powers and not so great psychics of our own. As 5th is the age of the mech army (a bit) this is not good as we need to get people from their transports else they will outrange and outgun us, and no one can win when they just get hit and never shoot back. Also I tend to run into Eldrad and his friendly seer council(s) ((Yes some people have 2) or Lash or other powerfull psychic army's, but Eldrad seems to be the one that REALLY annoy's me.

 

(Now wait there, don't leave yet, I am not just whining in the SW forum :) )

 

The Deathwing that will be.

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter. How can YOU help? (Ask not what your chapter can do for you, but what you can do for your chapter).

Well I descibed what the strong points of DW used to be, I described the current situation so it should be obvious what direction I am going.

 

I looked at the SW codex and noticed the following:

 

- One Special character who is rock hard in CC and has the abilty to boost the guys arround him.

- Again, scoring troops in TDA, for 10 pts less then my default Deathwing termies (Who have fist off course)

- Good Psychic powers, even at range

- Best psychic defence in the game (only limited by the 24" range) better that the 5/12th a Marine gets.

-- With Njal that would be ever better then the best. 3+, are you kidding, the guy is an eldars worse nightmare. (I'll take it)

- 2 shot CML's bringing back the ranged firepower once possible in a squad.

- Possibility to soak up wounds on 3+ storm shield guys, makeing even a lascannon hit only semi dangerous.

- Combiweapons on ALL termies.

- Wolf claws which are better then normal lightning claws as you can choose which to re-roll.

- Still mixing and matching as much as you can. Free and flexible.

 

In short Wolf guard as troops in terminator armour have everything we need to make Wolf Guard lists (Or Deathwing using Counts-as) which are againg as powerfull as they used to be. So with that established we can move on to building some list and gathering tips and tricks, perhaps even come to an agreement on what a "default" WG squad should be. We could also use that as a basis to device a playing style and strategy with this type of wolf list.

[krewl]

Headquarters

The Great Wolf

The first part is simple, we'll use Logan Grimnar else there will be no wolf wing, period.

He has a couple of nice abilities to boost a squad he joined and he also has a one time a game boost to close combat ability.

Appart from that he doesn't need a lot of help either because the dual use of his frost axe as either frost axe or powerfist means he's quite able to take down big baddies on his own. The 2+/4++ save and eternal warrior make him quite survivable to boot, so do not fear to through him into close combat, even with beast like an eldar wraithlord, carnifex or other MC's. Just don't get to cocky with him, he still has only 3 wounds so he can die. He should help a squad and then there is hardly any unit who can stand in his way.

 

A nice trick to do is to take one unit of wolf guard of 10 men, and attach him. Then attach a rune priest with living lightning and target tanks far off on the board. Take 2 CML's combined with the living lightnings d6 shots and watch even landraiders start to think that they might want to be somewhere else. Note that monoliths will still be almost invulnerable, but that's just a bad tank.. so @48" you can kill AV 13 quite well, anything lower that that should be easy. even AV 14 can be hurt by this combo, and your characters will be safe against enemy fire in such a large WG termie squad.

 

The only real disadvantage is his high cost, but as he is needed for the basis of this army we have no choice but to include him. Still a lot of bang for a lot of bucks so it's not that bad.

 

Njal the Stormcaller

Again with the hefty pricetag (One squad of 5 men WG can be fully kitted for 1 Njal..) so it will depend if he will be worth his points. Also think about something like 2 Rune priests (in termie armour off course, it is all termie armour.) as they can fit well within his points costs.

He knows all powers, and can block enemy powers withing 24" on a 3+ which is the best psycher defence ever, appart from a null rod on a unit.

Then there's all the random bonus stuff on his unblockable psy power. It's a bit random, but could come in very handy as it will disrupt your enemy.

The storm abilities effect enemy's in close range, but you will be closing with the enemy anyways as you will want to engage in CC anyways.

No enemy psycker will be able to block the bonus powers, so thats something to through the opponent off and keep him worrying.

Just remember to keep to your own game plan and never count on anything working out well and just treat it as a bonus.

Remeber be is pretty good in CC, but you should watch out as he has only 2 wounds, so prevent him from beeing targetd by enemy characters or torrents of hits if possible.

 

Rune Priest

If you are not taking Njal I'd advice at least one in your army to disrupt enemy casters.

Always upgrade to terminator armour, we have to stay with "The Theme" here. I do not think master of the runes is worth it.

Only 2 powers are not a psy-shooting attack, so no 2 shooting attacks will be done at the same time anyways, and with the price of the upgrade you are almost halfway to just a second rune priest.

There's also the debatable point if you can include any runepriest if Njal is there, so until that is FAQ'ed we'll just not do that at least for competative play. I also feel that the rules mean you can not use the same power on 2 guys, again, not to start the debate about that here, but that's what I'll take as a basis for building this army.

So what powers to take (building for all comers, not against one army) with this basis.

 

Rune Priest Powers

I like Jaws of the World Wolf as it will decimate a tyranid army but is scary for almost all other army's, and casting it several turns means you'll be able to kill things like orks, necrons, plague marines (Low I) or try to snipe powerfist sarges and the likes. Eldar mostly are not impressed, but then again, they can also make you fail may psy test because you use 3 D6 for a psy test, so mostly I would not advise you to cast yourself to death.

Then Living Lightning as the range is suberb, and it's a great transport popper attack. Also remember the combo with Logan I wrote earlier for more effective armour popping.

We never need Storm Caller as it gives a 5+ cover save, but no other benefits. We already have a 5+ inv save, so who cares.

Thunderclap can be nice against horde armies, but the low S and AP mean that I'd skip it for now, as you have better options.

Tempest Wrath is a great power against jumppackers, jetbikes, skimmers etc etc. I'd take that and living lightning if I whare to take just one RP.

Makes for such a great disruption of enemy's and might even prevent them from wanting to attack you in CC because they fear dangerous terrain tests.

Fury of the Wolf Sprits.. nice but not super because of the short range. If your units are at 12" chances are you'll be deadly anyway and number of shots is not that huge.

Murderous Hurricane, might be usefull as you can effectivily lock a unit on their spot for a bit preventing charges on you and if they move they'll need dangerous terrain tests again. the S and no AP are not so good, but a good roll on the number of hits will still cause some deaths. Great against Guard and orks and some types of eldar, but don't expect it to whipe a full tactical squd for you.

 

So on one Rune Priest I'd take Living Lightning and Tempest Wrath, if I have 2 I'd take LL and Murderous huricane on one, and Jaws on the other with Tempest Wrath.

 

Other HQ's

I might discus these better to see what they bring to the army, but I have not researched them in depth yet so I don't have a lot to say about them..

It's just because we already need Logan Grimnar, and I would strongly advise anyone to take a Rune Priest, not only because they are good, but also because you need some form of psychic defense.

I'd say taking more HQ's would just cut into your points for troops who you also need very much.

 

Wolf Priest

A fearless unit with a wolf priest can be very potent, but perhaps that is something for a 2000Pts list or such size.

If you are going that way, I would spend some more points on CC upgrades and less on shooting in the squad to maximise the effect the re-rolls have.

Wolf Lord

This guy is absurd in the ammount of options he can take, but there is little he can do that adds to what Logan already brings to the table.

Still this guy is just about as customisable as a chaos lord form the previous Chaos Codex, and that is a good thing. Again, he eats into troop points, so I'd not take him and if you do keep him lean perhaps with a frst axe to use higher S on high I.

Wolf Guard Battle leader

Hmm, he brings more attacks with him? Appart from that, why take him, when a Lone wolf could do so much better in drawing firepower. I don't see a use for him which add's to this type of army.

 

 

Wolf Guard

Finally the troops:

Wolf guard should all be in terminator armour, as that is the idea of this type of army list. Let's look at what a default guy brings to the table.

By default a WG has a power weapon and a storm bolter. Because of his Ld 9 he is pretty certain of a counter attack extra die in CC (please don't forget you have to test a LD test for the extra die if charged, that would be unfair to your opponent.) So he normally has 3 attacks. Not to shabby against MEQ types, pretty good against anything not outnumbering them hugely. Nice range 24" anti infantry with the default bolter profile but then with 2 shots.

Heavy Weapons

I would advise you to use them in multiples of 5 men, just to maximise the ammount of heavy weapons you can carry.

As heavy weapons I'd take just the CML's because they give range and both anti armour and anti horde with the choice between Krak and frags.

The AC is overpriced I feel with the current rending rules. Feel free to use one, but you will lose on Anti tank and ranged firepower, so I'd advise against it.

You can use one heavy flamer in a unit, but the chance it will do anything is small, and you have the normal flamer combi option to kind of replace it while keeping a CML, so why bother.

Only use the H. flamer to save some points if you are tight on them.

As said before use one with 2 CML's in a squad of 10 men, to maximise the effect Logan has on the unit, and also to provide a big bulky unit that can benefit from and protect the IC's.

 

Combibolters

I'd use at least one combi flamer as this will help out every now and then with thinning out hordes. Even MEQ don't like big ammounts of saves.

And on the move it will only cost you 1 shot at 12" to 24" as you can stil rapid fire when closer without loosing the ability to charge as terminator armour gives you relentless.

It's a good idea to include one flamer/bolter combi in each squad, and as my experience with a DW squad shows you hardly get more then one flamer template a game anyways just having one shot does not matter that much.

I am tempted to also include 2 combi melta's for armour and taking wounds off MC's before charging in with for the kill.

I feel this is more attractive then buying a chainfist in each squad because you get 3 melta shots for the cost of 1 chainfist.

All of this is offcourse points permitting. you can do so much with WG it is easy to get carried away and overupgrade you men.

 

Close combat upgrades.

In a 5 man squad I'd take one Storm shield, in the 10 men squad take 2 to assign wounds from lascannons and suchs to and have a good chance at surviving them.

No other upgrades on the guy with the shield though, you plan to plant hits on him, odds are he'll not reach close combat or the end of the game.

Also replace the power weapon with the SS, so that he will be able to add as much to the battle as possible before kicking the bucket.

Mark of the Wulfen is a nice upgrade, don't be tempted to put it on the SS guy. Even though he can shoot, and still have special CC attacks and a Storm shield he would be expensive for a guy you plan to drop AP2 shots on.

Perhaps on a guy like this in the 10 men squad where he would have a better chance at staying alive to use the CC boost.

 

Then I'd advise to take just 1 wolf claw upgrade on the powerweapon. Effectively giving you the choice to re-roll, but no extra CC attack, but you are plenty lethal in close combat anyways, so these are points better spent elsewere.

So (for me) no 2nd Wolf Claw the 2nd is twice as expensive and adds only 1 attack.

And the extra attack would be expensive, when these points can be better spent on (for example) combi weapons. I'd say one minimal, 2 if you can spare it in a 5 man squad.

 

Powerfists, Chainsfists and Thunderhammers are basically the same thing, you use them to kill armour or high T monsters.

Depends very strongly on how many points you have left. 3 powerfists buy 2 chainsfists, but 2 chainsfists do better against armour.

I would think that one chainfist in a squad would be good, just to scare AV, and fists (normal and chain) are both a good backup to prevent you from beeing locked by a dread and slowly picked off.

I do not have a special love for thunderhammers, I find the improved AV penetration in a chainfist more valuable then the rare stun-effect. So points permitting I'd take 1 Stormshield, 2 Single Wolf claws and 1 chainfist in a unit of 5.

With Frost axes costing as much as a claw for only +1 S I do not see why you'd take them. perhaps on a character for 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound against MEQ, that is ok, but on a line trooper? Give him the fist for the same points.

Arjac Rockfist

In short, I feel this guy looks awsome but he is way to pricy.

Shure he does great things, has good stats and has a S10 hammer which he can throw, but think about what he essentially replaces.

Keep in mind the costs in the codex are an upgrade price and see he's close to 200 pts for one guy. For that ammount of points you could almost have another squad of termies, or a lord/runepriest/other HQ who will do much more damage during a game. For his price you could also include 2 lone wolves in TDA, who would work with your army a lot better. So no shortage of other things to choose which will function better that what he brings to battle. He is basically a CC character (Or ver close range shooting) but we have plenty of killing power in CC anyway. He could be replaced with a Wolf Priest in TDA for less who would enhance the entire unit he is with, still leaving you points to upgrade CC weapons to (chain)fists and add some combimelta's who will do what Arjac does but better.

 

So cool in concept, but a definitive no for me on this guy.

[krewl]

Support units

 

Landraiders

This part is personal, but I say you should only use landraiders with 2 or more in a list. Melta is so prevalent these days that one will be a smoking wreck pretty soon, 2 live a lot longer then just one, 3's even better.

That means that a WG list with raiders will be very expensive and low on models. I do not have a lot of experience with this kind of play but I would say they are viable (Only?) in a 1700pts + list with 3 raiders.

3 raiders + logan is over 1000 points to start and then we don't even have any squads yet.

 

General tactics should be 2 or your 3 raiders boosting op 12" and blowing smoke, in turn 2 you should doing nasty things in enemy lines. This is offcourse ALWAYS a general advice and you should not always do this.

Several army lists would like nothing better then you comming to them, so meetiong those lists some more tactics would do you well.

An alternative is trying to take out enemey anti AV14 if he has that in limited ammounts, after which your LR is invincible. When that happens rejoice and slaughter the heretic/mutent/xenos. ;)

 

Regular (Godhammer pattern)

Nice option to use as your backup tank. It can sit at range for a while guarding your home objective, with a CML 5 men squad near it shooting at things far away.

If needed you can mount up the squad and cruise somewhere more usefull, and still charge from it.

But the first part of the game it should be sitting somewhere with good LOS and fireing the 2 twin lascannons, don't forget you can use the PotMS to target 2 separate targets if you should feel like that.

Upgrades: Hmmmmmm, a multi melta would be nice, but only if you are a bit roomy in your points.

This tank already has 2 S9 anti tank guns, and getting close enough for the MM means losing the range advantage the LC's offer you.

 

Crusader

You need either this one or the redeemer to add your Logan or other HQ to a WG 5 men squad, as the great minds at GW have once again reduced the transport capacity on the default pattern... :(

Plus side: S4 hurricane bolters can be shot on the move, letting you shoot the twin assault cannon as well when moving 6". PotMS will allow you to shoot the MM if you chose to buy that as well.

Minus side: S4 bolters are not exactly uber killy most of the time. 12 shots in 12" range may sound like a lot (twin linked) but do the math.. 12 shot, 8 hit, rerolls 2 1/3 hits. for 10 1/3rd hits. Against MEQ half wounds, 5 1/6st wounds, failed aves on averidge gives you just 2 kills. Off course you'd like to add more shots from assault cannon and MM, but often you will move 12" for a good charge of your cargo so you won't use those together very often.

Pluspoint is you can fit 8 termies in here, so Logan can bring 2 extra friends to play if you have points for that. (You don't want more then 3 squads anyway, one per raider).

Buying the MM here is kinda compulsory else this poor tank will have almost no defence against high AV.

 

Redeemer

The Marine roaster, as that is waht the flamers are meant for. No save, no cover save, no to hit roll and wound on a 2+. Also known as "remove that squad please".

Downside should be obvious, this guy needs to be in the tick of it even more then the LRC so is a prime target for MC's, chainfists, meltaguns/bombs and so on.

Even so, if he DOES land in enemy lines results can be devastating. Move up, move 12" towards the enemy, use PotMS to use one flamer on one target and charge out with a HF squad and flame and charge another squad.

Results should be devastating at least, and if everything is going according to plan you have 3 of the LR variant doing this sort of thing, hopefully speading the fight and confusion, and removing anti tank threats. Rely on your 12" move for 6+ to hit in CC and your AV14 to protect you, combined with the killy CC squads rummaging around. This is why you should be doing this with at least 2 LR's at the same time. It ties up many threats and you just pray to the allfather to protect you against the leftovers. :D

Again this guy should have the MM upgrade to be a threat against any kind of tank, just like his LRC brother.

 

Drop Pods

Dreadnoughts

We have 2 options for dreadnoughts, normal and venerable. Sadly no Ironclads as I feel they would fit very well in a SW army, but you can't have everything now can you?

The price hike for venerable is a lot, so think about the fuction your dread will perform before spending those many points.

Also I feel dreads should be in pairs or 3 not just one. You know that in a list suchs as we use in this topic they have a decent chance of getting many anti armour shots because you have no other armour.

One the one hand this means they have a decent change at death every game, but that does mean your scoring troops are still moving and not taking these shots.

 

In general I don't like the assault cannon, as it lacks in range, strength, (reliable) armour penetration against MEQ and AV. So I'd replace this with the Meltagun for same points, or plasma/twin autocannon (See next subjects for details.)

And a twin linked Heavy flamer is IMHO only viable when you drop pod somewhere. They you also have to upgrade the Dread CC weapon with a heavy flamer for a barbeque fest :D.

This would become a throwaway dread, that you deep strike in enemy lines to wreak flamy havoc, and hope it lives 1 turn so you can charge into something.

Not to good an idea in killpoints mission, as you would be giving away 2 KP's one for the pod and one for the dread, so I'm not to sold on this config, just putting it in as an option.

 

Normal dreadnought:

Ahh yes, here I can (As a DA player) finally have my Mortis pattern Riflemen dread in a "Deathwingy"list.

Twin autocannon, and a Twin autocannon. Re-rolls to hit, 4 shots and S7 mean this bad boy is the bane of all Eldar/Tau tanks, Rhino's DE Raiders, Jetbikes, vipers etc.

Everything with AV 10 to 12 will fear the ammount of reliable hitting shots this puts out. An alternative would be a pair of Twin lascannon dreads, both with a Missile launcher. These are also dedicated anti tank dreads.

 

Venerable Brother

I would never upgrade this one with the following weapons:

Twin Linked lascannons, you are BS 5 already, why waste the huge ammounts of points on a twin linked lascannons 1 shot. You already hit on a 2+, so you are paying for the twin linking of something that wil hardly mis anyway.

Replace CC arm with Missile launcher or Twin linked Autocannon. Again with the twin linking, and you lose the CC arm, S10 in close combat and you effectively do a lot less with your WS of 5 which is included in the steep price you pay for the venerable status.

 

Still this guy is harder to kill then a regular dread, and to use the points you pay extra I'd keep the CC weapon to make use of the WS 5 when in CC. On that subject I'd rather spend points on the heavy flamer upgrade then on the Wolf tooth neclace. You are hitting MEQ statlines on a 3+ anyway, and there are not a lot of units that you would like to charge with a dread that would make this a worthwile investment. The flamer on the other hand will come in handy in many occasions if you want to tarpit a unit of gaunts or other enemy's and you need a nice thinning out. Off course you always have to remember that you do not flame if it has a change of destroying your charge chances!

 

So what would I take on this guy? I think proper (shooting)weapon on this guys would be either a Multi melta of for some extra points a plasma cannon.

BS5 gives you a non overheating plasma cannon with very little scatter in most cases, and it will allow you to take out MEQ and TEQ targets very well.

The Multimelta costs no extra points, and can be used to protect your termie troops from aproaching transports, walking behind termies to deter people from moving up their landraiders and other scary tanks. The deterent is a double on, as the guys charging your termies will also be countercharged by a dread, and some units do not want that. (Like howling banshees e.g.)

 

Dread tactics

This works nicely when you destroy a transport with your other units missile launchers, and then you try to plasma template the guys getting out. I'd use the dreads with the same equiment and in mutual support, so you have 2 chances at a nice template placement and they can cover eachother. One dread can smoke, the other can peak out with the gun behind him, giving both a 4+ cover save, still shooting 50% and posing a threat to any units exposing themselves.

MM dreads would be the ones taking out transport if you use these, and when they are in range, so are your termies shots to thin out attackers. MM dreads (2 of them) befind termies are the deterent for uber CC units of doom charging from landraiders and other vehicles. Even if they do charge you (Cavalery, bikes or jumppackers have more range, so this is very possible) you are just about certain to damage them a lot with 2 counter charging dreads who can also put a flame template on them if they happen to whipe out a 5 men termie squad.

 

Things not to do....

Walk out up front... dreads are support units, use them as suchs. AV12 even on venerables is toast all to easy.

Same thing goes for dreads wandering off alone, they work a lot better when used in pairs (or 3's) or supported by a squad and them supporting the squad.

Charging big groups like ork boys with a Nob with a powerclaw, this is only viable if it is a hold up tactic, as you will most likely loose the dread. Venerables are better at this, but keep it in your mind that you will likely loose them.

Using plasma for tank hunting. Even though you might have a shot with them and you should not dismiss shots of oppertunity, never count on it as scatter, missing and the lower S7 of plasma does not make it a good weapon for this.

 

Lone wolf

I think these guys can really add to your army in a pair of perhaps 2 guys. Potentially then can draw so much firepower while you manouver your troops where they really count. Off course if you play Dark Angels, you should replace the wolves models with Cerubim servitors from the Inquistorial henchmen range ;-)

Still, eternal warrior, 2 wounds, FnP, 2+/3++ and ablative wounds? This guy is a born tank/MC hunter with a good chance of getting there.

 

I think I'd make them something uber-survivy like:

Terminator Armour, Chainfist, Stormshield, 2 wolves. I think that's about 115 points for a great firesoaker, use them as suchs.

Run up ahead, attrackt fire and soak shots not going to your troops, who will be on their way to claim objectives. And in killpoint missions, still run them up as they conceed a killpoint if they don't die.. If your enemy tries to be a bastard and ignore him place the guy in CC against the biggest thing or unit you can find.

If he dies he scores YOU a killpoint, so deploy up front, run and charge stuff.

 

Maybe a combi plasma would be in place on this guy? He runs up anyways, and has a very slight chance at ever getting a wound from an overheat, but it does add to his damaging potential.

[krewl]

NOTICE: As a wolf guard list ahs SO many options to add or shave 5 pts here and there these lists are NOT exactly on the mark for points.

I found that it would be useless to discuss the pro's and cons of every list when all the many options need to be discussed. So I decided to just give the basic list (mostly checked in my Excell sheets) but if you re-count and you find some point over or under the mark, adjust this yourselves as you will need to play the list. The examples are meant to start you thinking about possibilities, work out the details for your own personal list.

 

General tactics with WG.

 

Playstyle is alsways the same, keep moving, you lose nothing in firepower when you move 6" so keep doing that as the game proceeds.

Towards targets in objective missions, away from any enemy who does not have the ranged firepower advantage over you, towards them if they have it over you (like tau, some SM build, some eldar builds, many Dark Eldar builds.)

 

Always try to take out enemy transports with the missiles and LL so that the enemy is not able to use their mobility advantage on you. You are in one way slow as you move just 6, but you are also better then normal MEQ and other armies as you an always move and shoot to your full advantage. Squads you shoot out from their rhino/raider/waveserpent are not as mobile as they'll need to sit still for full firepower effectiveness. So take away transports and the in game mobility advantage just shifted your way.

 

Though I focussed on the anti tank aspect of the 2 shot Cyclone, remember that you can also use it to plant 12 frag templates in an ork horde from acros the table :D

 

Sample squad configurations

Default Squad configuration (5 Men squad): (Footslogger list)

In an ideal world where no points would hamper me, I would run a squad like this as my basic squad.

- Cyclone ML, one Wolf claw, Stormbolter. If at all possible last guy to go.

- Combimelta, wolf claw 3rd to go.

- Combimelta, chainfist. 4th to go, your best anti tank guy.

- Powerweapon, combiflamer. This is the 2nd you should sacrifice in most games, for

- Storm Shield, Storm Bolter. This guy takes the scary hits first.

 

This squad comes in at a 250 points which is a nice ammount for a 5 men squad. Always remember you do not want to overupgrade your guys.

It easy to get carried away with all storm shields, combiweapons, etc, just because you CAN do so much with WG it does not mean you should.

 

I also included the kind of tactic I'd try to use in wound allocation to keep some guys allive longer then others.

This will differ in scenario's and your opponent and how he's placed, no use in keeping a melta shot at all costs when you see his tanks are 48 inch away and avoiding your units.

The powerweapon/ flamer guy for example is more important if you have 90 orks incomming then a meltashot, so be flexible in allocation tactics depending on the enemy and your position.

Another example, if you are still far away from an enemy with many AP2 shots at range, do not allocate non ap2 shots on the Storm shield guy.

Instead try to avoid possible 1's on him to keep him alive for the hard shots where the SS does something.

 

Also use wound allocation to your advantage, all your guys in a squad are different, so if you can assign multiple dangerous wounds on 1 guy you can prevent other unsaved woulds.

 

Close combat squad for use in LR army's.

Obviously in this type of list terminator units CAN make a good use of a heavy flamer as a heavy weapon, while CML's are less usefull as they are inside a vehicle not shooting for a couple of turns.

Nice place to save some points, which we can spend on more CC choppyness to jump out of the raiders.

You should realise when you make a the choice between a flamer or an assault cannon here that the AC will almost net you an extra WG which would do a lot more in damage then an AC.

So I still vote against AC's even in this type of list.

 

In a CC list designed to jump out from a LR you should design differently. I think Storm shields are more of a luxury here. instead I'd go for a pretty even(ish) mix of Wolf claws (just the PW upgrade)

So for example, I feel this would be a nice squad to jump out:

 

Wolf claw, combiflamer

Wolf claw, combimelta

Chainfist, combimelta

Powerfist, Heavy flamer

Powerfist, stormbolter

230 pts ( From memory)

 

This type of unit still has shooting anti infantry power, can take out a tank or something most times with the 2 combimelta's and is a beast in CC against just about everything.

And on the turn you hop from the LR these guys BBQ quite a bit, so they don't even need to be afraid of a 30 man ork mob. If charging into Marine lines or IG, try to multicharge and place the chainfist against enemy tanks to disable as many units as you can with your charge, as that is all you have got. So stay locked in CC if at all possible to prevent up close rapid fire death.

 

Army list examples:

1000 points

Minimal points ammount that a WG list can actually play at I feel.

 

The basics:

HQ - Logan Grimnar 275

 

Troops - WG squad 5 men, CML (195)

Troops - WG squad 5 men, CML (195)

Troops - WG squad 5 men, CML (195)

 

This leaves us with 140 points.

 

This is enough to either: kit out the WG squad with combi weapons and CC upgrades or buy a single Rune priest in TDA.

Another idea is to use a single Riflemen dread, giving you points for some combiweapons.

The problem at games on 1000 pts level is that there are many ways to go and it is very hard to make a succesfull all commers list that can handle all extremes. So if you meet 3 seer councils a day on a normal tournament, go for the priest. In most cases though I would go for the upgrades below as they are more versitile.

 

I would go for the following upgrades myself, something like in each squad;

1 Combiflamer

1 Combimelta

1 Powerfist

1 Stormshield

 

Leaving you with 5 pts to spare for another combi melta, an upgrade to a chainfist, or whatever.

I choose Powerfists to save some points from the chainsfists at the chances of running into a lot of AV14 in these low points numbers are low. You are still not helpless, enough S8 should scare the one or max 2 AV 14's you run into. (Wierd guards lists are the exeption, but sadly you can not plan to do well against EVERY concievable list in just 1000 Pts.

Alternatively you could swap out for 2 x combimelta's or even 2 x flamer if your local games involve more or less armour, just adept this to what you feel plays well. One commentor disliked the Stormshields ( I don't as they can be the nr1 place to deposit lascannon hits and have a chance at surviving.) but that clears up even more points to kit your squads the way you like.

 

1500 points

I understand our english brothers use these a lot. This used to be the level at which we played in the Netherlands, but that gone up in the last 2 or 3 years to 1700.

 

HQ - Logan Grimnar

HQ - Rune Priest in TDA

I feel a rune priest is needed at this level as you are so much more likely to run into psy heavy forces at this level that the 4+ no psy power bubble the priests delivers alone is worth it. Apart from that I discussed above how great the long range psy power Living Lightning is, the second power is up to you (JottWW is very populair against some, even army breaking against Nidzilla or Necrons, still LL is always usefull, JotWW ocasionallly, so I chose for reliability..)

 

Troops - 10 Man WG, 2 x CML

Troops - 5 Man WG, CML

Troops - 5 Man WG, CML

 

This is a nice solid base, making great use of Logans special rules. We still have over 300 points to play with so again we can have options.

Kit out the squads and add 2 dreads, or 2 lone wolfs, or another squad. Personally I'd go for another squad, or 2 riflemen dreads, but that is just because I prefer ranged firepower and I'm overcompensating......

 

(For the lack of range I had as a Deathwing player.... off course.... :D What where you thinking? :( )

 

 

1700 (Or 1750)

1700 is the norm in the Netherlands on tournaments here (and the Dutch GT). 1750 is so close it in the same heading, it usually comes down to just adding some more combi's CC upgrades, OR (Alsways remember this) dropping some CC upgrades and getting a lone wolf. (See above.)

 

Sample 1 - Terminator Horde

 

In this list I'd take the following:

HQ - Logan Grimnar

Troops - 10 men logan squad.

2 CML's, 2 Combi's, 3 Wolf claws, 1 Powerfist, 2 Chainfists, 2 Stormshields.

 

Troops - 5 Men squad

1 CML, 1 Combi, 1 Wolf claw, 1 Combi, 1 Chainfist and 1 Stormshield

 

Take this unit 4 times and you're on 1700.

 

Logan and 30 other termies.

One squad of 10, 4 squad of 5 guys, al scoring. Start on the board, pump out shots while steaming up to CC range.

Let the other guy shoot through that, while you march up you pump uit 12 missile's a turn, 4 of which are +1 AP because of tankhunting.

You start with a decent threat at 48", move up unitill in 24" range where you add a propper ammount of hord killing shots.

At 12" you can also threaten tanks with melta goodness, and up closer CC madness and some flamers begin.

Keep the Logan Squad behind the others at first as they are shooting at tanks, and you can claim cover from the guys up front, but the tank shooting at you will have to be 50% obscured to claimm the same.

The "Big Squad" should try to multicharge if possible, as you are so big and bad in CC almost any other unit will die when in CC with you. Then it's good to be in CC with another unit to protect you from counterfire in the opposing player turn. Allocate CC fist hits on the 3 guys with a shield if they are still alive, if not pray to Russ/The Emperor.

 

While fun, I think more effective armies are possible with one less unit, less CC toys and the addition of a Rhune priest as this list has no Psy protection.

 

Sample 2 - Balanced list

While balanced is a strange choice of words for a gimmick list like an all termie army, it is because I feel this list has it all to come along nicely in a tournament and I at least would have fun playing this.

 

HQ - Logan Grimnar (Did not see that one comming Eh?)

HQ - Njal Stormcaller (In terminator armour off course)

OR

HQ - A rune priest in TDA

Elite - Lone wolf with TDA, Stormshield, 2 wolves and chainfist. (Note, these combined are cheaper then just Njal)

 

Troops - 10 men Squad (When using Njal)

2 x CML, 2 Wolf Claws, 2 Chainfists, 2 Stormshields. (Slightly stripped but Njal is EXPENSIVE)

OR

Troops - 10 men Squad

2 CML's, 2 Combi's, 3 Wolf claws, Powerfist, 2 Chainfists and 2 Stormshields.

 

Then fill up the list wit 3 squads of:

Troops - 5 Men Squad

1 CML, 1 Stormshield, 1 Chainfist, claws and combi's would depend on Njal or not.

 

This list has it all, I feel.

Credible ranged threat, massive CC power, good to superb anti psychers, very good psychic powers and a nice horde clearing potential.

Just deploy on the field, add Njal or the regular rune Priest and Logan to the 10 man squad to prevent IC sniping and march on up to glory.

Alternatively you could add the psycher to another unit to add to that unit's firepower, and swap squads if they get shot to much depending on the situation.

As I don't have the list done yet, I have no detailed usage tips, but you should be able to play any army with this list. Just remember that you start walking and that's all you get, so move up to objectives in those mission where you need it. You will need a keen eye for judging distances to be on an objective on time. Also try to stay focussed and support your units with eachother. Anything that kill a squad should die a horrible death the turn after from the other supporting squads. It is also not needed to split to all objectives if you happen to have 5. one more then the other guy is still a win. You have resillient troops, and low killpoints, so killpoint missions should be easy to do.

 

Njal should be in the big block in the middle, center of the table to scare everyone with is late game passive ability. You do not want to stand next to him in turns 4,5, and 7.... (Unless you are his buddy off course.)

 

Sample 3 - Landraiders 'R Us

 

On account of the expensive HQ, this a hard one to fill. Forget about Njal here, he is to expensive.

Even a normal Rune Priest will not fit into 1700 without keeping the squads almost default, a 1750 list would be more usefull, you could add him in there.

On the plus side, no CML's but using Heavy flamers shines here and save some points, but now onwards to the list

 

HQ - Logan Grimnar

 

Troops - 5 Men terminators.

Heavy Flamer, Chainfist, 2 single claws, Storm Shield, 2 combiweapons (I'd go melta here to add some more anti tank which you'd also lack against several lists.)

I'd place the stormshield on the chainfist guy here, as you have a very good chance of reaching combat anyway, an this willl help keeping him alive to swing. MEQ targets will take out others, but you will have already hit with the claws.

 

3 Landraiders.

I would use at least 1 normal (Godhammer Pattern) for some ranged Anti tank, hang back with the scoring unit in there to act as you tactical reserve and add to the battle at range, or ride up and support something thats not going well.

The other 2 I am not shure about, either 2 crusaders or redemeers. remember you need at least on of these to be able to mount up Logan with a squad, else he'll be footslogging solo and deader then a doornail.

I'd take one of all 3, add the Multi melta to the Crusader and the Redemeer and see how they work for you.

 

You move the 2 short ranged ones up first turn and blow smoke, 2nd turn you should be able to hurt someone most games. After this the list works itself a bit as you have to charge things and get in close to use the weapons on the 2 raiders. Remember movent keeps you raiders alive from meltabombs andc cc attacks, and use PotMS to target 2 things at the same time where needed, while your termies target a 3rd. You get only one change to really hit with this list. 4 units or more of his should be dead or hurting to have a chance at surviving.

 

2000 Points

I'd love to play at this level, however here we do not, so I only do this now and then in a casual game.

 

Adding to the lists above at 1700-ish I would add what fits the list.

2 Drop pod dreads to disrupt the enemy lines in the raider lists, lone wolves to the termie footsloggers. An extra squad of termies and some bling is also a nice option. Just keep your ranged threat up to prevent army's from castle-ing up and shooting you down on the long way in. (This happend to often in my Deathwing army lists).

 

While thinking about 2000 pts lists I discovered that A. I do not have enough experience for this level to come up with something worthwile, and B. most would be a repeat of things said before in the smaller lists, only with more units.

[Hfran Morkai]

First off you seem to know what you're talking about.

 

I have no qualms with you using our dex until you recieve something nice and new, so long as you respect others that may come to the DA when you get a new book, same principle. Having an individual codex means you don't get the nice new SM rules like we did with our previous dex, making us still highly competitive throughout those nine years. In fact by using our codex you are supporting us and persuading GW to not leave us in the cold for so long again.

 

Now to the topic at hand, I like you current breakdown, easy to read and digest.

 

The Wolves are very modular which makes for a great elite based army, in a five man pack you could have one of each combi-weapon, a close combat specialist and a heavy weapon pack member. Thereby allowing each pack to be either tailored to a specific role or remaining generalist in their composition.

 

Say two/three powerfist/thunder hammers per 5 man pack to allow for hurting high toughness units with power weapons/wolf claws for horde work.

[Natanael]

Great read so far. As Mikal said, you seem to know what you are talking about. Keep it up, and I might play a WG army sooner than I thought.

[Gentlemanloser]

My current version ( I tried a 2 LR list at 2,000 points and while I rolled over my opponents, I didn't really have too much fun with it), which I'll be unleashing tomorrow is;

 

Logan

WGx10, TDAx10, CMLx2

 

Rune Priest, TDA, Living Lightning, JotWW (I don't find Choosers to actually be any good for anti infiltration, and I've dropped MH as my opponents really hated that power. It's probably one of the best in the Codex)

WGx10, TDAx9, Arjac Rockfist

 

WL, TWM, WC, SS, Saga of the Warrior Born, 2 x Fenrisian Wolves

TWCx5, SSx5

 

Lone Wolf, TDA, SS (In place of Power Weapon), MotW, M Bomb.

 

 

This gives me two 11 man TDA Squads. Both are stubborn, both have some potent long range firepower (2 Krak Missiles, or d6 Living Lightning). Both can also deal with Armour, either through Arjac or Logan Tank Hunting with his Power Fist.

 

Only two scoring units, but large, durable and faily cheap terminator ones. :D

 

But the real gem is the WL on the TWM. I was torn between 7 attacks on the charge with a Belt of Russ, or dropping down to 6 for a SS and WC reroll. The TWC are there, decked out with SS, to allow him to cross the distance.

 

My opponents will have to focus *everything* they have, for he first couple fo turns, just to try to stop him getting to thier lines, otherwise (i hope!) he will run riot.

 

Which will leave less to target my Terminators with.

 

The Lone Wolf in TDA is pure Win (unless it's Annihalation!), and while I've found thier native 2 attacks to be a little lacking, I realised you could get a SS and MotW for the same cost as a SS, and keep a ranged attack on him. The use of the Melta Bomb is debateable, something I'll bring up if it ever occurs.

 

Logan I've found to be an utter beast in CC, many attacks, EW, and either a FB or PF. He lives up to his points cost I feel. ;)

 

If you want to go for a little DW Teleport Attack feel, take a few smaller squads in a Drop Pod. But I just can't leave the TWC at home!

 

Edit: Why I'd not assign a RP to the uber Tank Hunting Logan squad, is to take advantage of hitting different targets. As LL hits on side armours, you don't really want to use it versus Raiders, let the S9 Kraks hit them. And as it's side armour, you don't really need Tank Hunter for thier S7. ;) Use LL to pop Dreads, or Preds. And use Logans Kraks to go for Raiders.

[Ullr Direfang]

Now in no way am I trying to shoot down your idea, because I would love to run a Wolfwing list. But I still am unclear on wording as to how "counts as" means that they use a troop slot. In Codex: Space Marines on page 130 in Kor'sarro Khan's entry:

 

Mounted Assault: If Kor'sarro Khan rides Moondrakkan, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops Choices.

 

For comparison, in Codex: Space Wolves on page 82 in Logan Grimnar's entry:

 

The Great Wolf: Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar.

 

It is because of "taken as" verses "count as" that, to me, means that they still use the Elite Force Organization spot. I also understand that GW does change wording often, but I really do need to see and FAQ before I will actually use it.

[rodgers37]

Now in no way am I trying to shoot down your idea, because I would love to run a Wolfwing list. But I still am unclear on wording as to how "counts as" means that they use a troop slot. In Codex: Space Marines on page 130 in Kor'sarro Khan's entry:

 

Mounted Assault: If Kor'sarro Khan rides Moondrakkan, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops Choices.

 

For comparison, in Codex: Space Wolves on page 82 in Logan Grimnar's entry:

 

The Great Wolf: Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar.

 

It is because of "taken as" verses "count as" that, to me, means that they still use the Elite Force Organization spot. I also understand that GW does change wording often, but I really do need to see and FAQ before I will actually use it.

 

yeah but then look at Canis, Fen.Wolves 'count as' troops, and they can't capture objectives, so why would you want them as troops?

I think that really should take any doubt, saying Coutns as, pretty much to me, means they have to be troops (with KK, its 'may' so you have the choice....)

[Gentlemanloser]

SW Press release stated Logan could let you feild all terminator armies.

 

Every instance of other slots being used as Troops is worded differently to eath other.

 

'Counts as' is countsa as in *every* fashion. Abilities, what FOC slot they take.

[Ullr Direfang]

SW Press release stated Logan could let you feild all terminator armies.

 

I never saw that. I wish GW would stay more consistent with their wording.

[LPetersson]

SW Press release stated Logan could let you feild all terminator armies.

 

Every instance of other slots being used as Troops is worded differently to eath other.

 

'Counts as' is countsa as in *every* fashion. Abilities, what FOC slot they take.

 

I have to say that I didn't realise that GW press releases now counted as official rules...

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't.

 

They show you 'intent' to back up your RAI arguements, when someone tries to argue RAW 'counts as' doesn't really mean 'counts as'....

 

It's simple. They count as troops in every aspect a troop choice would. FOC and Scoring included. Unlike the poor Fenrisian Wolves.

 

RAW and RAI satisfied.

 

With no RAW, nor RAI to back them up, no one should ever try to argue Logan can't let you field a Terminator only army.

[jimmyjames2112]

I think an all termi list is a sub par list in practice. though, im a purly competitive player. and fluff and cool lists arent really my thing. i have to say it would be scary as hell to deal with

 

That said. w/o being able to deep strike w.o a pod i think you are limited. Also and more importantly. a termi for C:SM is as good as a comparable WG termi for less points.. Logan is a house. but hes no Abbadon or even Calgar IMO and i think both of those units can own Logan hard for less points.

 

Sorry i dont mean to be a downer and its not my intent to flame. Just my point of view. GL with the list though!

[Gentlemanloser]

a termi for C:SM is as good as a comparable WG termi for less points..

 

ATSKNF is well worth those three points.

 

A Storm Bolter instead of a TL Bolter is a Wash. SB can potentially be more killy at 24", the TL Bolter at 12".

 

ATSKNF aside, the ability to take 3++ Storm Shiled, and be scoring, make WG Terminstors far superior to thier Choas equivalents.

[Hfran Morkai]

a termi for C:SM is as good as a comparable WG termi for less points..

 

ATSKNF is well worth those three points.

 

A Storm Bolter instead of a TL Bolter is a Wash. SB can potentially be more killy at 24", the TL Bolter at 12".

 

ATSKNF aside, the ability to take 3++ Storm Shiled, and be scoring, make WG Terminstors far superior to thier Choas equivalents.

 

He's on about codex marines as far as I can tell.

 

Our guys start cheaper, with customisable wargear to tailor them to the situation at hand, they have counter attack and acute senses. The rule I feel is to keep them cheap, keep most with standard loadout (maybe swap power weapons for a single wolf claw) add in some tank busting models (thunder hammers/powerfist/chainfist) and maybe some combi weapons.

 

A WG terminator with Wolf Claw and combi weapon rolls at 43 points

He has a power weapon allowing him to re-roll hits or wounds

Has a combi weapon for dealing with just about anything (why mixing in squads is a good idea, versatility)

Counter attack, acute senses

Become scoring

 

WG with combi weapon and powerfist for 48 points

versatile choice of combi-weapons

can deal with armoured threats to the pack

counter attack and acute senses

Scoring

 

Compared to Codex marine at 40 points

Power fist and storm bolter

can combat squad

can choose to fall back voluntarily

 

The WG is much more capable of dealing with a horde of enemies so whilst a standard loadout (Storm Bolter and powerfist) is three points more you get some nifty rules and if you keep the upgrades cheap you have a nasty unit, however I reccommend chainfists on your armour busters because you have less high strength attacks making them more important. Throw in scoring whilst taking a pretty nasty character and you're laughing.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL! I read that a CSM. ;) My bad! :P

 

Still, I find SW Terminators to be superior to SM Terminators becuase of thier cost.

 

Terminators are still too expesnive for thier Durability, and anything you can shave off thier cost make it worth it.

 

While it become expensive for SW to make a Terminator squad equivalent to a 'nilla SM squad, it's impossible for a 'nilla SM squad to be equivalent to a base SW Terminator squad. At 33 points a Terminator, SW have the cheapest option (IIRC Honour Guard are 35 points each) of any current Imperial Codex, of feilding a unit of pure Power Weapons. On top of that, they get a 2+/5++ save (unlike the HG who have no Invulnerable save), Counter Attack, the ability to be scoring and access to 3++ Saves without the need to make everyone painfully slow in CC.

 

Yes, if you want to start kitting out your SW Terminators, they get more expensive than thier 'nilla counterparts. But you gain the abilitiy to start abusing Wound Allocation shenanigans by having every Terminator with individual wargear.

 

If you want to run exact SB/PF or TH/SS squads, 'nilla Temies are point for point better (ignoring scoring ofc). For anything else, SW Termies beat thier 'nilla counsins hands down.

 

Edit: That's a great point aobut only Taking a LC as an upgrade. Doing so, you're still cheaper than 'nilla Terminators, but now have a squad of Power Weapons that can choose whether to reroll hits or wounds. Bargin! ;)

[WolfLordLars]

... just quit calling them Wolfwing.... *shudder*

[Ceres]

Another Deathwing Player here.

 

 

And one who disagrees with the optimal load-out presented,

for I would argue that the following is more cost-effective.

 

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) @ 220pts (+X)

1 Powerfist, 1 Cyclone, 3 Combi-Meltas (+Claw)

 

As stated, the terminator squads should be cheap and taking

various close combat related upgrades seems to be a waste.

 

Particularly when you really don't want to the be in CC, but

rather, shooting and backing up all the time. That being said,

there still has to be some CC potential, and I find that having

one fist is enough to the scare the MC's, Characters and other

similar creatures.

 

Combi-Melta's for the obvious need of popping tanks, but if

the local meta is more infantry oriented, adding combi-flamers

is not a bad idea.

 

I totally agree with the cyclone arguments.

 

Additionally, if one wants to go for the would allocation things,

ie, weird shenanigans, I could recommend to add one claw to

the squad, making each model individual.

 

I don't agree having SS in the squad, mainly for their price

tag, and the fact that 5+ / Cover should usually be enough.

 

Basically, this load-out provides:

- Long-Range Anti-Tank

- Long-Range Anti-Infantry

- Short Range Anti-Tank

- Short Range Anti-Infantry

 

All in a very efficient and cheap package.

 

 

 

 

Kudos for your Tactica krewl. A solid piece of work.

 

And I agree with everything else stated in the Tactica thus

far.

 

I would recommend to structure it a bit and use all the bells

and whistles that the B'n'C has to offer, the guys doing the

Librarium articles can surely help you.

 

 

Happy Hunting,

Ceres

[krewl]

Thanks for the comments.

 

Don't feel bad about disagreeing, that's what a discussion board is for. ;)

 

On the subject of a the name wolfwing, I can't help it, I've been playing DA for the last 15-12 years (Don't recall exactly) ever since 2nd edition. So it's a bit hard to get rid of the "wing" thing.

Anyone else have a catchy name for suchs a list then?

 

I'd like to clean the posts up and make them look better but I prefer to get the content in first. As I said, I hope to fill out the topic this week after that it's ok to clean it up.

The B&C features require me to delve into them first before I can use them well, so I will lok into that when I am pleased with the content.

 

I was thinking of building some default lists on 1000, 1500 1700 (Or 1750) and 2000. That should be enough for a start.

 

And Logan is no Abbadon or Calgar perhaps, but he is a beast who can adapt to what he's facing. Any SM HQ who can face a wraithlord or carnifex in CC and have a good chance at pummeling it into little bits is impressive, and he boosts your army to boot. Plus the way I intend to play him he will be in a big 10 men squad in most bigger games, so Abaddon better bring his friends if he wants to play tag (Same goes for papa smurf.)

[Gentlemanloser]

Logan versus Calgar, my money's on Logan. ;)

 

Hihi Calgar! Meet my 6 attacks with a Frostblade, that hit on a 3+, all with prefered enemy rerolls! God of War my beard!

 

;)

[krewl]

Hmm true, Logan does seem to have the odds in his favour here.

So he's better then papa smurf even. How bad is that :tu:.

 

I updated the topic, included Arjac Rockfist and most I think of what I'd like to say on dreads.

Have to get back to work for a while now else people will wonder why I produce nothing while typing so furiously ;)

[munky79]

I tried a 1000 pt wolf wing list last night against DarkAngels, and in true style Logan did a wonderful job of TankHunting and generally making his little pack of wolfguard very very good.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and trying it out too, good job Krewl. :)

[thade]

They don't.

 

They show you 'intent' to back up your RAI arguements, when someone tries to argue RAW 'counts as' doesn't really mean 'counts as'....

 

It's simple. They count as troops in every aspect a troop choice would. FOC and Scoring included. Unlike the poor Fenrisian Wolves.

 

RAW and RAI satisfied.

 

With no RAW, nor RAI to back them up, no one should ever try to argue Logan can't let you field a Terminator only army.

 

I am remarkably confused by all of this. I heard that Logan allowed all TDA armies, yet his entry says nothing about him allowing Wolf Guard to count as scoring units or Troop units. This post seems to imply you can field a SW army with all TDA...but I don't see any rules that say you can?

 

I've been trolling this forum for a while now trying to find anything about it. Can you or can you not field a SW army with all Terminators? If you can, how is it legal?

 

(Don't get me wrong. I very much would like to field a terminator army. I just can't see how it's in the rules.)