Prosedragon Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Good day everyone, Two recent articles from BoLS has got me thinking about a list I would like to try out. Living in the armpit of the world, I get maybe 1 game a month, so I wanted to bounce the ideas around before wasting that one game on a bad idea or a bad way to test the idea. One article was about "mass", one of the principles of warfare. Mass is being able to apply your force where it needs to be. The other article was about the Vindicaire assassin, which I have always loved but have only used a few times. Mass, as I apply it with my salamanders, is about mobility: being able to get enough guns and assault troops at one point at one time, and then being able to relocate them the next turn. It's heavily mechanized (until the rhinos start to pop), and fun to play. Another way of applying mass is long range firepower. I'm sure guard would be better at this, but I wonder if space wolves could bring enough guns to bear at a single point that they could supplement it with just a minimal amount of assault troops (grey hunters, blood claws, wolf guard). I think this would be a cool force, one that really does advance under covering fire. Guard have trouble advancing (generally, I know there are exceptions [like skilled players]), and my marines have always had trouble utilizing enough firepower to call it "covering fire" while still having a decent sized force to advance. I feel like I'm babbling. Long story short, is a non-mechanized (no vehicles) force with max long fangs and a vindicaire viable? Will those 4 unites be able to "pin" (limit the mobility, through fear or actual pinning, forcing morale checks or popping transports) enough of the enemy for a foot slogging force to have any real chance at winning? What other units can add to that capacity? Dreads, either as additional long range support or as short ranged fire support (assault cannon/heavy flamer), could be useful, as could rune priests with living lightning. Also, at least some mobility is needed to plug gaps in the line of advance - thunderwolf cavalry, skyclaws, etc. I appreciate any input, and if this is a dumb idea that bears no further discussion I won't be offended if you just let it die peacefully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Stromclaw Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Ive been planning to try a similar list myself. 3 longfang packs plus landspeeder typhoons, whirlwinds, dakka preds, razorbacks, and/or shooty dreads. Space wolves make for excellent ranged lists, believe it or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2170827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 jonas, hwo could you fit so many heavy support choices in 1 list? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2170830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Stromclaw Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 jonas, hwo could you fit so many heavy support choices in 1 list? Oh no, I was just listing all the delightlful engines of destruction we have available to support a 3LF list. Im really not sure what Im gonna take. Probably the typhoons and a whirlwind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2170833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I have been tossing around a similar idea in my head for a SW army. I need to run numbers and think about practical applications but I was wondering if an army based on triple LF with lascannons would be effective The core of the army: LF #1 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback LF #2 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback LF #3 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback You have range + AV stopping power (AV 14 you are relying on mass fire to bring down or leaving alone for melta troops) Ideally you are popping up to 9 transports on turn 1 with the split fire + vehicle support You can pop heavy infantry as well with 15 combined lascannon shots per turn (maybe more depending on your vehicle configuration) The razorbacks can also be used to shield from incoming fire and provide narrow fire lanes Here is where the point sink starts coming...the support needed: -Runepriest w/ chooser of the slain. One spell choice has to be tempest. Counters infiltration and hopefully stops/disrupts drop podding/jumping/skimmers from raiding your LF gunline Depending on the remainder of your army you can also provide counter assault units (wolves...lone wolves etc. to defend the backline) I know your original idea was no vehicles but taking transports allows you to sneak in additional units with long range weaponary. You definitely get the "mass" fire power approach with this configuration and you won't lose too much of your effectiveness when facing armies designed to counter the traditional armor based lascannon armies. Railgun dropping a single LF is an acceptable loss v. losing an entire landraider or something. You need your own quick striking force though to counter artillery armies etc. Wolf scouts + 10GH w/ 2 melta drop pod support should work Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2170933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firenze Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 That mass tactic sounds interesting... I may try it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2170941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I have been tossing around a similar idea in my head for a SW army. I need to run numbers and think about practical applications but I was wondering if an army based on triple LF with lascannons would be effective The core of the army: LF #1 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback LF #2 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback LF #3 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback You have range + AV stopping power (AV 14 you are relying on mass fire to bring down or leaving alone for melta troops) Ideally you are popping up to 9 transports on turn 1 with the split fire + vehicle support You can pop heavy infantry as well with 15 combined lascannon shots per turn (maybe more depending on your vehicle configuration) The razorbacks can also be used to shield from incoming fire and provide narrow fire lanes Here is where the point sink starts coming...the support needed: -Runepriest w/ chooser of the slain. One spell choice has to be tempest. Counters infiltration and hopefully stops/disrupts drop podding/jumping/skimmers from raiding your LF gunline Depending on the remainder of your army you can also provide counter assault units (wolves...lone wolves etc. to defend the backline) I know your original idea was no vehicles but taking transports allows you to sneak in additional units with long range weaponary. You definitely get the "mass" fire power approach with this configuration and you won't lose too much of your effectiveness when facing armies designed to counter the traditional armor based lascannon armies. Railgun dropping a single LF is an acceptable loss v. losing an entire landraider or something. You need your own quick striking force though to counter artillery armies etc. Wolf scouts + 10GH w/ 2 melta drop pod support should work Sounds like a good idea but 3 LF packs with LC's would be very expensive at 215 points per squad, thats 645 points for your Heavy Support alone. Maybe dilute the LC's with some ML's or HB's to give the squads a bit more flexibilty with who they can effectivley shoot at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2171327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40k Junkie Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 1st BOLS- 9 Princples of War was a joke. As a military man myself it irks me a bit, but thats beside the point. You cannot forget that key to winning is dice (and why the princlpes of war cannot apply fully to a game) and the more your roll the better your chances are. Long Fangs (Too Expensive and forces you to sacrifice torrent of fire elsewhere) 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback (Heavy Bolter?) Is a fail in the sence of MASS, and even though we all like Lascannons in 4th ed. They are too expensive and not flexable, and Flexabily is the key to Space Marines. Mathhammer is your friend. Look at this build: Long Fangs- can shoot at three targets, supportive of each other via their range, and the missle launchers will be great for anti troop. Also it adds to the survivability of your Long Fangs because your opponent is going to want to get rid of the Lascannon fast. Please put it in atleast some cover. 5 x Missle Launchers, 1 x pack leader, Razorback w/ TLLC Armor type 14 with a Lascannon should still be your last target priority due to the fact that you have only a 66% Chance to Hit, then a 16.5% chance to Pen. Total effectivness versus A-14 is 10.89% (Effectivness meaning that both things will happen at the same time.) and 4 Lascannons is not 10.89% x4 its http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BinomialDistribution.html UGH, Right! But to sum up it is not 43.56 each event is its own % chance to occur. Then you move onto probability that the desired event will occur with higher chances to do so. I leave the big mathhammer to people much better at math than me, but I hope this helps a bit. Missle Laucher > Lascannon due to its Flexability, Effectiveness, and Cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2171408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I have to admit I have an unreasonable attachment to the lascannon. Downgrading to missile launchers would add flexibility and basically achieve the same anti-transport/heavy infantry role. For the true armor (AV 14) you can use the points for MM/HF landspeeders and deep strike....GH + 2 melta drop pod etc. and actually improve your army flexibility with respect to objective based games. Now if this is a pure ML based long fang support I think there was another thread on the topic...time to search Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2171459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 1st BOLS- 9 Princples of War was a joke. As a military man myself it irks me a bit, but thats beside the point. You cannot forget that key to winning is dice (and why the princlpes of war cannot apply fully to a game) and the more your roll the better your chances are. Long Fangs (Too Expensive and forces you to sacrifice torrent of fire elsewhere) 5 x lascannons 1 x pack leader Razorback (Heavy Bolter?) Is a fail in the sence of MASS, and even though we all like Lascannons in 4th ed. They are too expensive and not flexable, and Flexabily is the key to Space Marines. Mathhammer is your friend. Look at this build: Long Fangs- can shoot at three targets, supportive of each other via their range, and the missle launchers will be great for anti troop. Also it adds to the survivability of your Long Fangs because your opponent is going to want to get rid of the Lascannon fast. Please put it in atleast some cover. 5 x Missle Launchers, 1 x pack leader, Razorback w/ TLLC Armor type 14 with a Lascannon should still be your last target priority due to the fact that you have only a 66% Chance to Hit, then a 16.5% chance to Pen. Total effectivness versus A-14 is 10.89% (Effectivness meaning that both things will happen at the same time.) and 4 Lascannons is not 10.89% x4 its http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BinomialDistribution.html UGH, Right! But to sum up it is not 43.56 each event is its own % chance to occur. Then you move onto probability that the desired event will occur with higher chances to do so. I leave the big mathhammer to people much better at math than me, but I hope this helps a bit. Missle Laucher > Lascannon due to its Flexability, Effectiveness, and Cost. I really hate to be off topic and all but...I didnt understand a single word of that OR the linky within. When it comes to math hammering I just close my eyes and throw the dice letting fate discern my...fate. However the original discussion about mass got me to thinking up nasty great company based off differing tactics for each of the 4 HQs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2173479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosedragon Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 I thought my thread was pretty well dead...I'd already put the flowers on it and everything. Please, rez. the thread if you have any good experiences with applying long ranged mass (however the terminology should express it) and let me know how it works out. How I planned on applying this was relying on a firebase of 3 long fangs and a vindicaire, possibly using an inquisitor with a psycannon and heavy bolter servitors. My long fang selection is limited: 5 heavy bolters, 4 plasma cannons, 2 lascannons, and filling up the remaining slots with missile launchers. Because of how the list worked out most of the force will be mechanized, but I just don't see how marines can be effective without the mobility of rhinos. I will also likely run a dreadnought, though I don't know if he'll be rolling fire support (assault cannon/ heavy flamer) or more firebase (missile launcher/lascannons). If there is still any interest in this I'll post some comments on how it worked out if I can ever get a game in, I'd appreciate anybody else doing the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2173737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjames2112 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Well Gunline space wolves is pretty good. I think Lascannons have thier place. but Only in small numbers. the ability to have twinlinked increases your chance to pen AV 14 alot better then not. IMO a Godhammer is well worth the points. at 260 points. you get 2 TL-LasCannons, and a Multi-Melta As well as about the best Fire blocking tank in the game. I agree with the missile launcher statement. However. you can also take a 6 long fang squad with 5 Heavy Bolters for a meager price of 115 points. A Iron Priest to help your tanks with repairs AND 3 servitors with Heavy Bolters for 95 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183566-mass-and-long-fangs/#findComment-2173786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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