LS or WS

[WG Vrox]

As the title suggests, I have about 150 points to put towards a high anti-AP unit such as Land Raiders. I have had pretty good success with WS, but now that we are gambling what side of the table the come out on and we lost our ability to take MM equipped Attack Bikers <_< , where should the points go?

 

Keep in mind that we are talking about Wolf Scouts on their own,not lead by a WG as it will come down to a Indy GT ruling on that issue and we all know how they like to chaff us on that issue.

 

I am giving my list but I am solid on everything but the Land Speeder or Wolf Scouts issue.

 

Arctic Storm 2000

 

HQ:

RP Chooser MB = 115

WGBL SS/TH SoB SMB = 175

 

290

 

TROOPS:

 

8 120 PG PW +35 DP = 180 (WG-TDA)

8 120 MG Ban +35 DP = 170 (WG-TDA)

7 105 MG Ban PW +35 Rhino = 170

10 150 MG PG +35 Rhino = 190

 

710

 

ELITES:

 

Dread AC/HF WTN 125

DP dwml 55

 

WG TDA CP/PF 48 DP

WG CM/PF 43 Rhino

WG TDA CM/CF 53 DP

 

324

 

FAST:

4 3 SCB MG + 1AB/HB MB PW 150

2 LS HF/MM 140

 

290

 

HEAVY:

Whirl Wind -85

Vindicator /Dozer -120

6 4ML 1HB RB /Dozer -180

 

385

 

Thanks for your thoughts, really torn on this issue, just not enough success in using Land Speeders for AP, though I have only used them a few times. If you say LS please include your tactics. Thanks

 

Vrox.

[VorpalDoom]

I'd like to give you suggestions... but after trying to fill in your plethora of algebra problems with words, I lost interest.

 

So, I'll say this, with 150 points you can actually fit in a multi-melta speeder and a min-strength scout unit with a meltagun.

 

 

When using the land speeder, position it so that you can block nearly all LoS to the heavy long ranged weapons, and take a pot shot at a light transport turn 1 if possible, if not, go flat out and hide behind some cover. Turn 2, get a sideshot on a heavy tank, or be within range to get the extra D6 armor penetration.

[Grey Mage]

Id say 2 more HF+MM Landspeeders would probly hold you in good stead here Vrox.

[WG Vrox]

Guess I should have been a bit more clear, the LS in the list is what I am in question about, the list above is a 2k list. So the question is should I replace the LS in my list with WS or should I go with the LS as is?

 

Thanks

Vrox

 

Edit. been on vacation in Florida for the last week (drinking some fine Captain Morgan Ale) so my posts have been a little less detailed than usual.

[Natanael]

I've started to play w/ Speeders some games ago, and so far I think they work very well. I run 2x MM/HF and 1x Typhoon (all separete sp?). It is very nice, not only for their AT, but for their ability to go and contest objectives late game. I tend to be quite careful w/ the Typhoon, and a bit more agressive w/ the MM/HF ones, but realy you should try to keep them alive and in position to contest in turn 5. With the 24" move they are great!

 

Also, the MM/HF ones can deal with anything, while your WS are much of a one-trick-pony, and (at least for me) they tend to die very quickly after they have blown up a tank or two, same turn they enter.

[maznaz]

Guess I should have been a bit more clear, the LS in the list is what I am in question about, the list above is a 2k list. So the question is should I replace the LS in my list with WS or should I go with the LS as is?

 

Thanks

Vrox

 

Edit. been on vacation in Florida for the last week (drinking some fine Captain Morgan Ale) so my posts have been a little less detailed than usual.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong as I like your posts and generally find them interesting and/or useful, but I find it really hard to parse them because of all the initialisms. I get there in the end, but it slows down reading and spoils the flow somewhat.

 

It's probably something to do with mostly reading this forum in the morning when I'm half asleep, but nevertheless it's a struggle. :)

[WG Vrox]

I'd like to give you suggestions... but after trying to fill in your plethora of algebra problems with words, I lost interest.

 

Thanks for trying, but just looking for info on the Speeders as it was the only unit that I am iffy on. Pretty solid on the rest of the list at least until I have a few more playtests with it. Have you had much luck with going Flat Out with your speeders to get them in position for a Turn 2 strike, as this is somewhat my plan?

 

Natanael

 

Thanks that is the kind of advice I am looking for, I have seen a few people here and there not happy with the performance of their speeders and my little experience in running them has been marginal, so was wondering if its a matter of how they are used or are they just that lacking as a AP option.

 

The tactical plan at the moment would be to drop the Dread and GH DPs in the middle of an exposed flank hopfully one with an objective nearby. I would then turbo boost my Bikes and go Flat Out with my speeders to provide support. Position my LF to have a good lane of fire to take out anything that threatens their beachhead.

 

Rhino with RP and Vindi would provide intermediate range support. while the WW and LF provide ranged support. Second Rhino will hold close/home objective while providing support to the back feild units and my second DP takes an objective on the opposite side later in the game.

 

Vrox.

[Natanael]

@ WG Vrox: I think we play similar armies, but very different in style. I play pure mech tough, so I don't have the pods, and therefore I can more afford to hang back with my Speeders.

 

Only important thing I'd have to add is that when you go flat out, keep yourself out of LOS, or prepare to loose speeders. They go down really guick to massed bolter fire/plasma guns etc. I usually keep mine back until I can get both MM or both HF at a single squad, and have a GH squad or something else to kill/tie down the survivors. It is worth it sometime so sacrifice your speeders on a LR (of some kind) but more often then not I go down a flank, popping rhinos/dreads and hiding from the main fight.

 

As I said, they are great for contesting, and for that they need to be alive. After all, the game is won by taking objectives, not by killing (in most games at least).

 

Glad I can help, anyway!

[Valerian]

As the title suggests, I have about 150 points to put towards a high anti-AP unit such as Land Raiders. I have had pretty good success with WS, but now that we are gambling what side of the table the come out on and we lost our ability to take MM equipped Attack Bikers :P , where should the points go?

 

What is a high anti-AP unit? It looks like you want a unit to perform anti-Tank or anti-Armor duties, from the wording in the rest of your post.

 

Second, I'd like to question your comment that we lost our ability to take Multi-Melta equipped Attack Bikers. Certainly, the option has changed, but it hasn't dissapeared. They are still a viable (and cheap) unit that is available to contribute to your AT mission.

 

Valerian

[Aeric]

Second, I'd like to question your comment that we lost our ability to take Multi-Melta equipped Attack Bikers. Certainly, the option has changed, but it hasn't dissapeared. They are still a viable (and cheap) unit that is available to contribute to your AT mission.

 

Valerian

 

You can only take one in a bloodclaw biker pack. And there BS3!! Next to useless, esp when compared with a unit of 3 BS4 multimeltas (old codex).

[Audun]

Second, I'd like to question your comment that we lost our ability to take Multi-Melta equipped Attack Bikers. Certainly, the option has changed, but it hasn't dissapeared. They are still a viable (and cheap) unit that is available to contribute to your AT mission.

 

Valerian

 

You can only take one in a bloodclaw biker pack. And there BS3!! Next to useless, esp when compared with a unit of 3 BS4 multimeltas (old codex).

 

I wouldn't say they're useless (and my opponents destroyed vindicator agrees with me), if you're running a bike squad they're a real boon (more attacks in cloes combat and you can take a wound on them to keep another bike alive), but I wouldn't take a bike squad solely for the purpose of taking the MM attack bike (I do run a bike squad, 8 members including the Wolf Guard and my mm attack bike, and hope to expand their numbers soon)

 

Speeders are very fragile, as I was reminded last game, but they more often than not, for me, do the job, and with MM/HF you can take on horde too.

[Valerian]

Second, I'd like to question your comment that we lost our ability to take Multi-Melta equipped Attack Bikers. Certainly, the option has changed, but it hasn't dissapeared. They are still a viable (and cheap) unit that is available to contribute to your AT mission.

 

Valerian

 

You can only take one in a bloodclaw biker pack. And there BS3!! Next to useless, esp when compared with a unit of 3 BS4 multimeltas (old codex).

 

As I said, the option has changed, but it hasn't dissapeared. Okay, so they're now BS3 instead of 4; this results in a 16.7% decrease in accuracy, down to an even 50% average chance to hit. That decrease in effectiveness came with an appropriate drop in price of 10 points from where it was before. Additionally, because the Attack Bikes are integrated into Swift Claws packs, they can be "hidden" within the unit and protected by other, cheaper, unupgraded Swift Claws; this was not an option in the old codex. Also, in the old codex, most folks preferred taking their multiple Attack Bikes as independent units, avoiding the disadvantages of the Squadron rules. Now, however, we have much better alternative Fast Attack Choices with affordable Sky Claws, and the tremendous Thunderwolf Cavalry, in addition to the always effective Swift Claws. If the system stayed the way it used to be, then Space Wolves commanders would have to choose whether to take Attack Bikes and sacrifice getting to take those other units. Now, with AB's integrated into Swift Claws packs, you effectively gain an additional Fast Attack choice slot.

 

The choice is not next to useless, it remains a perfectly acceptable anti-Armour option, as part of your whole anti-Armour scheme (meaning you should include some other anti-Tank weapon systems to achieve redundancy, regardless of what you choose as your means of defeating enemy vehicles).

 

Valerian

[Aeric]

Agreed. "Next to useless" was a bit strong. I've gotten used to spamming MM, and one BS3 MM worries me. But your comments on having an anti-armour scheme has struck a cord with me. Having anti armour in several units can be useful, esp when these unit are fast.

 

An attack bike is a must for any large swiftclaw pack (for a few points more +1A, +1W). And for a few extra points more you can take a MM potshot at a Landraider. I might give this a try.

[WG Vrox]

What is a high anti-AP unit? It looks like you want a unit to perform anti-Tank or anti-Armor duties, from the wording in the rest of your post.

 

yeah, I mean what the heck right. All I can say is what I said in an earlier post.

 

Edit. been on vacation in Florida for the last week (drinking some fine Captain Morgan Ale) so my posts have been a little less detailed than usual.

 

I think most of ya got it but I meant a high AP unit.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong as I like your posts and generally find them interesting and/or useful, but I find it really hard to parse them because of all the initialisms. I get there in the end, but it slows down reading and spoils the flow somewhat.

 

Well, thanks. Initialisms are pretty standard on this forum. Took me awhile to get used to them as well but now it's comes pretty easy. Bit of a pain to type out Land Raider Crusader all the time or Terminator Dreadnaught Armor. I will try to work on the other stuff though. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Agreed. "Next to useless" was a bit strong. I've gotten used to spamming MM, and one BS3 MM worries me. But your comments on having an anti-armour scheme has hit a cord with me. Having anti armour in several units can be useful, esp when these unit are fast.

 

 

Only issue I have with running a second SCB pack is I don't like the thought of running them without either a WG or WGBL and we are talking at least another 70 points to make that happen which I don't have in this list.

 

Vrox.

[saphius]

It's Tactical Dreadnaught Armor.

 

As this list stands, I'd go scouts. Much more versatile. Also more survivable being off board, and seeing as you already have some reserves I think your speeders will get picked as early targets.

 

It may not be really easy to shoot them down, but IMO I'm glad to face them. - They are really easy to stun, and make worthless. (Kind of like the drawbacks of Falcons, but without any of the benefits.)

 

The only real benefit in my book they have over the scouts is late objective contesting if anyone is stupid enough to let you keep them alive that long.

 

Now if I may be so bold....

 

If you dropped the two DP squads down to 5 Models with a WG in Power armor and ran them with Razorbacks with Las/Plas or TLLC they would cost slightly less and afford you the anti-tank you are looking for imo. - You're right taking out Armor 14 is difficult bit I also think if you dropped your LF for another, cheaper, vindicator your in a good boat. - You can also save 55 Points if you walk the dread. - Though dreads with MM are great for tank hunting in drop pods. (in theory, mine always miss). I don't mean to critisize you're list, just trying to help and maybe give you a different perspective.

 

If you did such changes keeping the Landspeeders is much more viable, even great in fact. Most armies have a hard time with that much armor across the board. - At that point you have no point sink units and all are mounted. That, what, about 10 vehicles across the board, half of which can take out heavy things. Any anti-infantry ranged weapons across the board are utterly useless until they get through you, or you decide it's time to get out.

 

But that being said, I like the list, but I'd go with the scouts if you kept it this build. Better support for drop podding units, and more surviveable as you have less oblative armor, and more versatile.

[WG Vrox]

But that being said, I like the list, but I'd go with the scouts if you kept it this build. Better support for drop podding units, and more surviveable as you have less oblative armor, and more versatile.

 

I have spent more hours working on lists in my head and on paper than I would care to admit at a AA meeting (Armybuilding Anonymous) there are many reasons why I have settled into that list; such as models I have painted and models I want to paint. The deal is I paint real slow so it's important that I choose my list and stick with it, at least that is until the Indy GT I signed up for is over in Jan.

 

I have built and played the list you have mentioned and it's a good one, but considering my play style and it's balanced dynamics I am "mostly" committed to the posted list for at least a few more playtests.

 

Thank you for your words about the scouts. If I knew for sure they would allow a WG to join and use BEL I would be pretty much sold on that option. They do have their downside though, such as in the last two games I played my scouts ended up on the wrong side of the table. Yes I rolled a 1 first game and a 2 the second game, but that crap can happen in a game and I am reluctant to count on it at a GT. Still I love my scouts and this is one of the few times I have ran a list without them, I am surprised that I have not seen more posts like yours that are pro scout vs land speeder though.

 

 

Vrox

[krewl]

I would chip in for the MM/HF speeders. As a long time raveninwg player they are now somewhat of a standard in my list because they are so flexible. They can take on everything in a game and switch from anti tank to anti infantry in a snap. The trick to keeping them alive is planning what they need to do.

 

If you plan to use them as bait, or speed up turn 1 and go for a turn 2 shot you know they have a very gigh chance of die-ing. If you play them as I do, moving up in cover to threaten enemy armour you can use them to manouvre your enemy where you want them, and still use the MM on decent targets, but a bit later in the game. If your 140 pts landspeeders make an enemy crusader with HTH units move around you, they are almost worth their points without shooting, at that is one turn less of short ranged and CC death that landraider and crew is dealing. Remember that tactical use is not only in killing your points back, it can also be in area denail, los of mobility, soaking up shots (For other units then speeders off course) and distracting your enemy.

 

Mine useally do their thing in turn 3 or 4 and if they live they contest, but I am quite content to lose them most of the time.

In killpoint missions they play more conservetively, as they are very fragile. Move behind cover and use them in support on targets you saturate with fire. This minimises return fire on them, and you should learn to position in suchs a way they when they shoot at the speeders your other units will benefit form the shots they did not take and hit his line. So to keep them alive make him choose between killing speeders and killing a bigger scary thing which the speeders are supporting. (Lord, thunderwolves, rhino full of troops claiming an objective, in short other scary things.)

 

They are still 2 killpoints, but your other units should have a good chance at making them back when he ignores them.

Just remember speeders on their own are dead very fast, treat them as the support units they are and they will serve you fine.

[MaleOpener]

As much as it's good for, I never had a "positive" experience with speeders.

 

As long as your force has something scarier, than your speeders, they'll be the first down. My local store has lots of veteran players, and their likely to shoot down any skimmers first.

 

I'm having some surprising fun, with wolf scouts. A small pack of 5, 1 melta, 2 plasma pistols, and one with the MotW (sometimes adding a model or two more). In a game, against a Tau player, they popped out where his suits where gathered. The pack chewed through a good number, leaving the crisis suits being recused by the broadsides! LOL!

 

 

Seriously, though, both units are quite good. It really depends on your style of play, and how well your opponent plays.