Schizophrenic Lysander

[Titan87]

So I am building an assault based army and am looking at Lysander, however I am not sure where to use him because his bolter drill rule and bolster defenses rule seems like he should be used to bolster a shooting squad, while his his S10 thunder hammer, Eternal Warrior, and Stubborn rules point say that he needs to be in the middle of CC.

 

He will most likely always be with terminators (and therefore in a land raider)So should I use him with a unit of "Tactical terms" or Assault Terms?

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Never ever put Tac Termies in a LR of any sort under any situation. You're paying for shooting, and you'll nearly always have range, so you should always be shooting. Shooting precludes transportation. Thus, if you really want to put Lysander in a LR with Termies - use Assault Termies. If you're going to use a 5-man squad, I'd recommend 3 Claws and 2 TH/SS. You only really need the SS for its protection, as Lysie can smack nearly anything around in CC.

[glsn]

I found him very useful in a group of allied PAGKs. He lends them some wounds and his Thunderhammer becomes doubly useful because they don't have access to power fists. He twin-links their Storm Bolters and I used his bolster defense to protect the double Psycannon squad I had at the back squating on the home objective.

[Chengar Qordath]

I've found Lysander fairly useful attached to a squad of Sternguard; the re-rolls on bolter fire make Sternguard shooting even scarier than normal (especially Vengeance rounds since re-rolling ones makes Gets Hot far less dangerous) and he gives the squad enough close combat punch to make most opponents wary of getting into assault, as well as a nice boost to the squad's durability.

[chapter master 454]

I have lysander run with 5 tactical terminators armed with chain-fists and a CML. Oh and they are in a transport, I suppose thats make him ineffective them with them, wrong. So far the unit has done some scary stuff and can quite easily charge a flank without fear of being out-done. However he's a leader that can do ether shooting or assault so where is up to you.

[Warp Angel]

He is a CC monster.

 

Bolter Drill is pretty darn useless compared to his driving need to be in close to the enemy and breaking heads.

 

Footslogging is too slow, and like every CC character, he needs friends.

 

IF you can get him and his assaulting squad friends rapidly into CC, then you're doing it right. If you're able to take advantage of bolter drill in the process, even better.

 

With that in mind:

 

Deep striking and footslogging are contraindicated.

Tactical termies are not assaulting squads most of the time.

Heavy Bolters are contraindicated on the basis that you can't shoot them and assault.

Bolters are contraindicated on the basis that you can't shoot them and assault.

Bolt pistols are... meh.

Storm bolters are yummy but hard to come by outside of GKT in an assaulting squad.

[Captain Idaho]

I think he should be with those Sternguard and Terminators. Reason being is he makes a marching Terminator squad very hard to get rid of, while a Deep striking Sternguard with him attached can make a dent plus be hard to counter charge.

 

Of course he can go with Thunder Hammer Terminators, but then you are plaing over kill there. I would probably suggest putting him with Lightnin Claw Terminators as he grants them an ability they don't have (high strength and higher invulnerable save).

 

Personal favourite would be 5-6 Tactical Terminators and march up the board knowing no enemy can just brush you aside!

[Titan87]

So far I am split between shooty terms and assault terms. Like Idaho said I am probably going to try running him in a 3LC 2TH+SS squad. This lets me face most enemies in the) game pretty effectively with the LC attacks at initiative followed by the Big hammers.

ew

I like the sternguard and Tacticals, but I feel that using him to do anything but smack things in the face is a loss of his biggest beneftis (2+/3++, S10)

[ShinyRhino]

He feels like a very "Hold the Line!" type of guy to me. While the enemy is at range, he boosts their shooting and resilience to attack (Bolster Defenses to increase cover saves). He's a non-firing model, guiding his troops with the voice of experience and such.

Once the bad guys get close, he whips out that Thunderhammer and shield, and starts kicking buttocks. Stubborn, combined with his Leadership 10 will keep your troops fighting to the last man.

He's a great defensive character for boosting an objective defender.

 

I suppose you could also deepstrike him in with a unit of Tactical Terminators, either using a teleport homer, or not. Land those Terminators, and put out 20 stormbolter shots that reroll to hit. That should pulp many light infantry units. Then Lysander's Stubborn and Leadership keep them from running due to return fire or an assault.

 

Like most Marine special characters, he's very middle-of-the-road. Lots of different uses, with no real dedicated role.

[werewolf_nr]

Because of his twin-linking I run him with a regular Terminator squad. I deepstrike them as close as possible (and safe) to my enemies, shoot or assault as needed.

 

He tends to cause lots of "OMG kill Named Character" syndrome and with 2+/3++ EW he can take it, especially with 5 ablative 2+/5++ wounds with him.

[Giga]

This is an idea I have for lysander, but it requires lots of points being used.

 

Basically, get both shrike & lysander in a list. Get a bunch of hammernators, and also get a full unit of sternguard with a bunch of combiweps.

 

At the start of the battle, shrike joins hammernators and infiltrates with them, while lysander joins sternguard in a drop pod.

 

This allows you to get two really dangerous units in your opponents face at the start of the battle. The sheer amount of threat these two units make will separate your opponent's firepower, and lysander's eternal warrior should insure he survives to charge something next turn.

 

I guess it wouldn't be too competitive, but it would sure as hell be very entertaining and in-yo-face. :lol:

[waaanial00]

Used him with Sternguard in a pod and didnt like it. Despite Lysander being great and survivable they sternguard are not! They tended to die and although Lysanders attacks are powerful they are not high in number (3 attacks when not charging) so he is never going to do mass kills.

 

Have considered using him with Tactical Terminators but I dont get on well with them (my luck not the combination). This sits well with his combination of abilities. Sticking this unit in a transport seems to be counter productive as Tactical Termies are not great in assault.

 

Lysander does almost nothing to Hammernators. Whoop he has 4 wounds and the same saves, they are all essentially striking at the same strength (past S8 most units are wounded on 2's and most things T5 are either eternal warrior or dont have enough wounds to make it worth it). He also makes the already expensive investment (Landraider is needed for these terminators) just crazy expensive.

 

An often overlooked situation is the command squad. Whilst not everyones first choice, consider that Lysander is usually taken down via mass fire. With the command squad you get FNP on a 4 wound, eternal warrior, 2+ 3++ character! Throw in a few Storm Shields and a few flamers to the bargin and it pretty much means that you are going to take out any unit. Dropped in a pod this unit will draw and take a large amount of firepower, in a landraider it makes for an expensive investment but if the landraider gets the unit to the front line they are going to kill a great deal of anything.

 

Wan

[White Hunter]

An often overlooked situation is the command squad. Whilst not everyones first choice, consider that Lysander is usually taken down via mass fire. With the command squad you get FNP on a 4 wound, eternal warrior, 2+ 3++ character! Throw in a few Storm Shields and a few flamers to the bargin and it pretty much means that you are going to take out any unit. Dropped in a pod this unit will draw and take a large amount of firepower, in a landraider it makes for an expensive investment but if the landraider gets the unit to the front line they are going to kill a great deal of anything.

 

Wan

 

Greatest idea ever! A tricked out command squad and Lysander complement each other perfectly. With FNP lysander is even more of a beast, and his eternal warrior lets him take a lot of those ascannon shots/power weapon hits that would negate FNP and keep on ticking making the squad more survivable. The squad has bolt pistols (and can be equipped with storm bolters) that makes bolter drill useful and provided ranged firepower and ability that Assault Terminators Lack. Each veteran can get a SS which makes them tougher to kill in the assault without losing any other equipment (or losing attacks), and you can give 1 or 2 vets power fists or thunder hammers.

 

I am going to have to try this soon. Great idea Wan.

 

P.S. The squad I described above looks something like this, and comes in at around 260:

1x Company Champion with Power Weapon and Combat Shield.

1x Veterans with Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, SS

2x Veterans with Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, SS, storm bolter, banner.

Apothecary.

[Titan87]

Wow I second white hunter, that is alot of potential with at Command Squad, though does the combination of FNP and 3+ save make them as survivable as the 2+ armor save?

[Khavos]

An often overlooked situation is the command squad. Whilst not everyones first choice, consider that Lysander is usually taken down via mass fire. With the command squad you get FNP on a 4 wound, eternal warrior, 2+ 3++ character! Throw in a few Storm Shields and a few flamers to the bargin and it pretty much means that you are going to take out any unit. Dropped in a pod this unit will draw and take a large amount of firepower, in a landraider it makes for an expensive investment but if the landraider gets the unit to the front line they are going to kill a great deal of anything.

 

Wan

 

Greatest idea ever! A tricked out command squad and Lysander complement each other perfectly. With FNP lysander is even more of a beast, and his eternal warrior lets him take a lot of those ascannon shots/power weapon hits that would negate FNP and keep on ticking making the squad more survivable. The squad has bolt pistols (and can be equipped with storm bolters) that makes bolter drill useful and provided ranged firepower and ability that Assault Terminators Lack. Each veteran can get a SS which makes them tougher to kill in the assault without losing any other equipment (or losing attacks), and you can give 1 or 2 vets power fists or thunder hammers.

 

I am going to have to try this soon. Great idea Wan.

 

P.S. The squad I described above looks something like this, and comes in at around 260:

1x Company Champion with Power Weapon and Combat Shield.

1x Veterans with Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, SS

2x Veterans with Power Fist, Bolt Pistol, SS, storm bolter, banner.

Apothecary.

 

Man, I really wish I hadn't read that. It sounds potent as all get out, but I have a personal aversion to counts-as. But do want.

[waaanial00]

Wow I second white hunter, that is alot of potential with at Command Squad, though does the combination of FNP and 3+ save make them as survivable as the 2+ armor save?

 

It all denpends whats shooting at it. I can do the numbers later and post them here if you like. Usually a reroll on a lower ability is statistically better than a straight improved ability but with armour saves its a lot different as it operates differently depending on what is shooting at it.

 

@white hunter - I have tried a unit of this uber proportions only once before against a very good Eldar Player (I was going to be playing someone else but I ended up taking a beating from him instead). I forget what the points value was but I had the following in a LRC (so thats 250 points already)

 

Lysander

Librarian

Command squad - Champion, 1 Power Weapon and Storm shield, 1 Power Fist banner and storm shield, 1 Thunder hammer, Apothecary

 

He took out my Landraider turn 2 with a bright lance shot. Needless to say the squad didnt last too long and with it gone I had bog all else to do. I had already fluffed my Landspeeder Storm first turn assault AND failed to kill anything with a point blank Multi Melta! It was not a pretty game

 

Wan

 

 

EDIT - Additional Mathammer information

 

It was as I thought FNP and 3+ save is slightly superior (statistically speaking) than a 2+ straight save.

 

FNP and 3+ = 0.8911

2+ = 0.87

 

What you have to think about is that against AP3 weapons 2+ is far superior, dropping to 0.5. AP3 and instant killing it drops to 0!

Neither protect against AP2 so taking plasma weapons etc into consideration is pointless.

 

Obviously its not much and statistics are only an indication. My feeling is that FNP is more of a luck balancing thing, my rule of thumb with a decent armour save and FNP is that you catch most of the bad luck on the first roll and catch most of the good luck on the FNP. My turbo boosting command squad are a testiment to this, people really dont like me when I play this unit.

[Dudley Nightshade]

Whoa! Love the command squad idea. I had never even considered that. I have been working on an army list that includes Lysander and some Sternguard, but now I am reconsidering that.

 

One other possible use for Lysander that I would like to try someday would be to attach him to a full Devastator squad with heavy bolters--especially if you can camp them in a ruin with good sight lines to take advantage of Bolster Defences too. What a fearsome amount of rerollable bolter fire that would be.

[Titan87]

Like I said earlier, I really like the idea of the command squad + lysander. It takes advantage of Lysander's abilities, but is it more effective overall than a unit of Assault Terminators? (looking at you math hammer gurus :huh: )

[silversmith82]

I wish I was a math hammer guru, however I love everything about Lysander. His history, his rules and his bonuses. I'm still toying around with building a Deathwatch or Allied IF/DH army with him as one of the HQs leading a unit of GKT which is probably the best possible unit for him to be attached to. Twin links their storm bolters and gives them the 3+ invulnerable they lack. Not to mention any incoming lascannon shots etc... can just bounce right off him with no danger of insta gib if he rolls a 1 or 2. Plus Lysander is on a Crusade right now to wipe out the Iron Warriors. Who better to lend a helping hand than the Malleus?

[waaanial00]

Like I said earlier, I really like the idea of the command squad + lysander. It takes advantage of Lysander's abilities, but is it more effective overall than a unit of Assault Terminators? (looking at you math hammer gurus :) )

 

Not claiming to be a mathammer guru but I have a few formulae kicking around.

 

What match ups are you specifically interested in? I can only do in a vacuum mathammer (I am not that smart to take into account everything else), just shooting and assaulting (both on the charge and off the charge).

 

So again give me specifics and I will find you numbers

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Drop-podding sterngaurd and Lysander- about 550pts. Kills alot of things, takes hits decently well, and on the board turn 1.

[silversmith82]

What about attaching Lysander to an Honor Guard if your other HQ is a Chapter Master? Pricey but Lysander with the 7 man uber guard might be pretty nice...

[Mycroft Holmes]

EDIT - Additional Mathammer information

 

It was as I thought FNP and 3+ save is slightly superior (statistically speaking) than a 2+ straight save.

 

FNP and 3+ = 0.8911

2+ = 0.87

 

 

huh??

 

2+ is the same as 5/6 == 0.8333333

how did you get 0.87?

 

3+ and FNP (4+) is 4/6 + (2/6)(3/6) == 0.8333333

You pass the armor save 2/3 of the time + 1/3 of the time you fail it and have to roll FNP which is 1/2. This is exactly the same as a 2+.

 

EDIT: In fact, there can be times when you would get a 2+ but you do not get a 3+ or FNP (krack rocket str8 ap3) which makes the combination not as strong as a natural 2+

Mycroft

[silversmith82]

Ok so for the command squad I am actually debating on doing it as it is just so very fluffy and awesome and great in game to boot. I was debating on the 10x cyclone termis but honestly, when will they ever see combat except to bust up armor? They can do that well enough on their own although twin linking their bolters is pretty sick...

 

Sooo....

 

Lysander and Command Squad:

-Lysander

-Company Champion

-2 Veterans with Flamer/Power Sword/Storm Shield

-1 Veteran with Meltagun/Power Fist/Storm Shield/Standard

-Apothecary

-Drop Pod or Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer

 

Pros:

Majority 3+ invulnerable save, access to a ton of wargear, FNP, Lysander can take the biggest hits and keep on trucking with his armor/invuln/eternal/fnp

Room in the pod/lr for a chaplain to really make this a scary, scary unit, maybe moreso than the uber honor guard...

Re-rolls on any failed morale/pinning combined with LD10/Stubborn

 

 

Cons:

Low model count

Expensive fire magnet

Stuck footslogging if you pod unless you throw in a librarian with gate and then you risk losing a model/scattering every time you use it.

Lose bolter drill

 

OR

 

Lysander and Terminator Retinue

-Lysander

-Five to Ten Tactical Terminators

-Cyclone(s) and Chainfists as appropriate

 

Pros:

Ridiculous amount of ranged firepower thanks to bolter drill/cyclones

High strength and chainfists good for tearing up armor, MCs (Lysander can take the hits) and large mobs of basic troops.

Very hard to remove these guys from the table with Lysander leading them

 

Cons:

Not nearly as scary in CC as the command squad and actually want to stay out of combat and shooting while Lysander is happiest beating the crap out of something with his hammer

Only 1 model gets attacks at normal initiative

5+ invulnerable is not really that great vs 3+ and FNP on the Command Squad, mass plasma renders the 2+ save meh

 

 

Opinions? Is that how you guys would kit out the command squad? Better to put them in a LR for el-rapido assault or pod them in on the first turn? What about the rock hard unit of tac terminators? Honestly they are nothing to sneeze at in combat, problem is they are not good at all vs elite units full of power weapons which is where Lysander is best served smashing apart said elites.

[Ice warrior]

Lysander and Terminator Retinue

Cons:

Not nearly as scary in CC as the command squad and actually want to stay out of combat and shooting while Lysander is happiest beating the crap out of something with his hammer

Only 1 model gets attacks at normal initiative

5+ invulnerable is not really that great vs 3+ and FNP on the Command Squad, mass plasma renders the 2+ save meh

 

Well now you are forgotting something... Lysander and his 10 man strong terminator squad with cyclones is the best way to use lysanders abilities... Ok of course it's expensive, but the unit is multitasked killing horde. if aided with small part of lascannon support it is unstoppable.

Well prove me wrong, but I can't come up anyone who can beat this gang. Of course 10 man strong flying farseer and pack of warlocks(among serious amount of luck) or 10 assault terminators with Vulkan. As you can quess terminator squad can be easily maimed for several turns until close combat is inevitable(furthermore i belive vulkan dies in first round of combat) or other option is to avoid slow walking terminators... Thanks to tactical terminators enemy can't ignore the threat of constantly flying krak shots.

And please advise me, if somebody can come up a unit that can shoot or charge (or both) so hard that lysanders unit can't retaliate back with equal or more brutal force. On the other hand, give me a unit that can take charge like that.

 

Nothing personal to anyone, Cheers IC