silversmith82 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 High initiative troops with power weapons can run the tac units' day though. Course, the unit has so much firepower that it'd be really really hard for them to make it to them before being blown away... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice warrior Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Exactly, and I haven't seen any high strength, high iniative and power weapon units. Well 10 vanguards with relic blades and lightning claws might do the trick, but it is quite risky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 It doesnt need High Initiative as the Termies are I1 (Power fists). Archo Flagellents? A unit of these suckers charging is a scary thing. Possibly a unit of penetent engines as well. A full unit of Ork burnas (45 S4 power weapons on the attack) statistically it kills 7.5 but has the potential to kill more depending on what is attached and how well they roll for hitting. Broodlord with a large Genestealer Retinue with feeder tendrils and scything talons? Just a few ideas @Mycroft - Mistake on spreadsheet, it is on reflection the same however as both you and I have said it really depends on what weapon you are defending against. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Cons:Not nearly as scary in CC as the command squad and actually want to stay out of combat and shooting while Lysander is happiest beating the crap out of something with his hammer Only 1 model gets attacks at normal initiative 5+ invulnerable is not really that great vs 3+ and FNP on the Command Squad, mass plasma renders the 2+ save meh Actually, the synergy is best with a full squad of TDA + cyclones, 2 chainfists...not only because of bolter drill: sooner or later you will get into CC with what is left after crossing the table. until then, you have a 3+ cover save from lysander's bolstered defenses. In CC, not much is scarier than 18+ PF attacks. lots of PW attacks before I1 may hurt, but you still have Lysander (and maybe benefit from being attacked in bolstered cover). If the enemy directs his attacks at him, he will save a lot with SS and termies will retribute. if attacks go into the termies, they might still save something with 5+ and lysander will hammer the offender to death (or strike last next turn!). always remember stubborn, too: those Ld10 Termies will never yield to anything, even when loosing half the squad. I think these 670 points are one of the best investments in the game. 10 sternguard + combimelter in a drop pod are also viable, but rather a one trick pony and more befitting to a counts-as-Lysander of the iron hands/et al. But you can also take a command squad for Lysander...just give it 4 plasma, put it in a razorback and add a Master of the Forge with PW & Plasma pistol for 10 shots of plasma with FnP-cooling (or 15CCW/4PW/2PF attacks on the charge). This will ensure no PW-wielding monstersquads come too close to your TDAs. Captains themselves don't have to be attached to "0-1 per captain" - squads, you know? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Yeah but the whole point of the command as mentioned in this thread I believe was to make Lysander even scarier and compliment him. Yeah that is a totally viable other unit of scarieness but separate from Lysander. I'm liking the idea of 10 termies in bolstered defenses... As for a brood of stealers etc... I think that hail of storm bolter fire could take care of a good deal of them before they got there not to mention the plasma cannon fire that is likely coming from supporting tac squads, flamer (wielding) combat squads in Rhinos etc... 45 burnas? That is going to be attracting lots of pie plates. If someone with 10 terminators in cover with the firepower that Lysander would give them lets 45 burnas make it to combat... we have a problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 On a related note- Why is that people seem to feel that they have to be able to use every ability all the time? A broad array of abilities can be a wonderful thing, allowing you to reuse an IC or unit in different ways accross different games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 True but I think the point of this thread was to see which units he best fits into. For utilizing ALL his abilities I agree on the tac termies. For straight up assault it really doesn't get any better than a tooled command squad with an attached chaplain or at least that's what it looks like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2183878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atticus_Ross Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 My use. Chaplain, Lysander, 5 lightning claws and one THSS termie. 8 man CC devestation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Actually, the synergy is best with a full squad of TDA + cyclones, 2 chainfists...not only because of bolter drill: sooner or later you will get into CC with what is left after crossing the table. until then, you have a 3+ cover save from lysander's bolstered defenses. .... But you can also take a command squad for Lysander...just give it 4 plasma, put it in a razorback and add a Master of the Forge with PW & Plasma pistol for 10 shots of plasma with FnP-cooling (or 15CCW/4PW/2PF attacks on the charge). This will ensure no PW-wielding monstersquads come too close to your TDAs. Captains themselves don't have to be attached to "0-1 per captain" - squads, you know? :lol: I use Lysander with 10 shooty terminators and cyclones as well. As far as the 4x plasma command squad, I'm experimenting by taking one and attaching it to a Librarian with plasma pistol, GoI, and ____ other power (usually might of the ancients for the charge you might receive). Being able to gate 24" then hit the enemy with 9 plasma shots can be a devastating alpha strike. Nothing like gunning down a daemon prince on turn one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Personally I think my combo with Lysander, 5 tactical terminators with 4 chainfists and CML is rather good along with their LRR. Nothing can stop them, I can rely on them to run one flank and concentrate the rest of my army else where because of the sheer nasty firepower they bring, a pre-charge of 10 bolter shots re-rolled with some CML action is terrifying thing to see (I was did myself out of some fun. The 3 of them demolished an entire guard line up, the units killed in 2 turns were: a guardman squad, a platoon command, heavy weapons squad, leman russ, another guardsman squad and a command squad. I wasn't happy about the lack of CC action from the tacticals, their storm bolters worked too well (that was without re-rolls!)). Alot of the time I do see the tactical terminators die off like some sort of sabo, launching lysander into combat with minimal paint work damaged (because we all know he doesn't retreat from wounds, just that he needs to re-apply that pain in the rear transfer he loves dearly!). Sure he ain't a mass killer but he can work as line-breaker, line holder or tarpit of massive annoyance beyond even a dread (30 orks ground down and defeated from turn1 through turn 5, he was only killed after the orks ran, he stood on a hill shouting defiance and got an entire ork shooting phase at him which caused only one wound, his last wound (some ork shootas were last and they pushed the dice too far!). Lysander can be used anywhere you want, he bolsters earth armies (bolster defence and bolter drill), he gives water armies a very hefty reactive deep striker coupled with tactical terminators, he can keep fire armies momentum going with TH/SS terminators and with air he can become a very nice bit of shoot bait (I once ran him up centre with his crew from his wrecked raider, he reached the enemy lines turn 3 with 3 wounds. That took more than several army worth of shooting to do! He is a juggernaut in his own right, justa shame wolves need a lesson in being heroic (what sort of heroic chapter like space wolves makes use of wussy powers that insta-kill anything. That isn't something you can sing praise of without getting the mick taking out of you. Just shows how big a whimp you are! Even more so, ragnar got owned by one of my tacticals, a bolt pistol lead charge later, 3 losses for a dead character. That rune priest was justly killed by a rhinos HKM (and lysander was eventually overcome in the last turns by a were wolve getting a 6 on his attacks. I have complete respect for that man. He defeated lysander in HtH. He shall be remembered!). Trust me, unless you have lysander stuck at the back of your army doing completely nothing (IE not using any of his rules or equipment), he is 200pts you can't mis-spend on him! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Sounds like the tac termies really is the way to go IMO. Or Grey Knight termies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice warrior Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Be advised. Don't ever take gray knights and space marines in same squad. Both units will lost their most important rules. Fearless and can't be sweeped. I have one time tried it, conclusion 10 terminators sweeped in end of an assault phase. I think it is better to let lysander run towards enemy lines, than sit back and do nothing. Even with the risk of getting killed. At least it will draw lot of fire power :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I like using Lysander with a full ten man Terminator squad. Arm them with CML x2 and a pair of chainfists. If points allow attach a Libby with Storm Shield. Bolter drill makes up for the two HQ lacking guns and they add much better melee to the whole squad. As for Bolster Defence I place some Sniper Scouts in the Ruin to gain the +1 cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Attaching a libby is turing 670 pts into a silly amount of eggs in one basket though... Then again gating them around would be the secks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183708-schizophrenic-lysander/page/2/#findComment-2184457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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