Lungboy Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I'm seeing a lot of TH/SS swaps for GKT. IMO/Experience this is a bad idea. The beauty of the NFW is that it is S6 AT INITIATIVE which is where the real power lies. If you want a safety vs. armor, take hammerhand on the BC/GM. Hammerhand counts as an extra ccw so you'll get 4 S8 attacks with a BC/Stern or 5 with a GM ALSO AT INITIATIVE. Way better than 2 at I1 S8 attacks with a normal GKT who is much better off with his NFW. Yeah hammerhand doesn't ignore armor saves but vs. vehicles this is not an issue. Anything else should not be able to stand vs. all those S6 NFW attacks with no armor save, especially if you have the force weapon thrown in on Stern/GM. The TH+SS is a free swap though, so it is tempting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2175037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Oh very tempting, but I can't see why anyone would want to give up the NFW/Storm Bolter combo especially when hammerhand is available to EVERY GKT unit for a measly 10 pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2175070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hammerhand won't pound T4 3+ multi wound models to the ground. Nor will it stun big creatures like a Carnifex, Tyrant & Guard, or even a Dreadnought. Most importantly, it doesn't look as good as a GKT with a giant hammer. You could always take both I suppose, best of both worlds. Yeah the BC may go down in the first combat, but he will force the enemy to split his attacks to achieve this, allowing the overall combat to be won by your PAGK. In low points games he is only there to satisfy the HQ slot requirement and unlock Dreadnoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2175569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 GKT NFWs will pound those models into the ground though and they'll do it at initiative value. Tyrant Guard/Genestealers are I6 and nasty, this is one of the problem units for GKT. I dunno it is up to the player. I personally hate weapons that make my guys I1 but I know their value in certain situations. If your GKT are led by a GM/Stern the fex is going to die anyway lol. However the DH thunder hammers are the best ones in the game, maybe I'll re-evaluate. Still proably will stick with NFWs though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2175747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
f.desrochers Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Oh very tempting, but I can't see why anyone would want to give up the NFW/Storm Bolter combo especially when hammerhand is available to EVERY GKT unit for a measly 10 pts. I think the fact that in a 5-man squad (typical build), a free upgrade to a TH/SS to deal with the multitude of dreadnaughts, combat tanks (Rear AV 12+) and other nasties is a fairly good deal. Yes, Hammerhand is available for a measly points cost, but can be negated by an ever-increasing number of methods that are becoming more popular (psyhoods, runes of warding, Tyranid ability, etc). ;francois Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2175951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hmmm yeah I suppose... I mean in the BL fluff, Brother Dvorn made the cut and got inducted into Stern's terminator retinue. He has a big honkin "nemesis force hammer" which is perfectly represented by a TH. Still leery on giving up the SB/NFW though. I'll have to playtest it some and see if I miss it or not. Good point about all the hoods running around, although with the BC/GM/Stern having LD10 they have a good chance to get it off and if not they can still glance rear armor 12 with basic NFWs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2176565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I have a GKT with Hammer and shield because it looks beautiful. That's the only reason. http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/Sa...ol/DSC00085.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2176712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I meant having S8 is good for instant death on things like SM characters, and glancing against walkers just isn't going to cut it. Against a great deal of nasty things like Tyrants, SM/CSM bosses etc. your GKT are going second anyway, I4 isn't stellar anymore. It's not huge whether you swap or not, kind of like a back up. The loss of a SB is frustrating, but GKT need to be using their combat potential otherwise you should be taking more PAGK. Unless you are using the double or triple Psycannon build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2176729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungboy Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Don't forget we have the old TH rules too, so in theory you can keep things like monstrous creatures stunlocked forever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibious Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 And shake up tanks with ease. -Gib- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
f.desrochers Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Good point about all the hoods running around, although with the BC/GM/Stern having LD10 they have a good chance to get it off and if not they can still glance rear armor 12 with basic NFWs. This may come down to the meta-game in your local area. Around here, dreadnaughts are a pretty common unit in all Marine armies (including some Chaos lists). I've been stuck in combat trying to roll that elusive 6 too many times while a nearby Libby keeps me locked from Hammerhand. Annoying to watch a unit get tarpitted (so to speak) by a dreadnaught. Overall your thoughts on the loss of abilities to swapping the NFW/SB for the TH/SS are correct. A switch that most people would have in the "option" column. For the most part though, 'competitive' GK builds all seem to include at least one per GKT unit. ;francois Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Actually what I'd REALLY like to try is an Imperial Fist army led by Lysander on his crusade against the Iron Warriors. He gets joined by a Malleus Inquisitor hot on the trail of a known Iron Warriors warband with a few retinues of GK and voila. Attach Lysander to a unit of GKT for an golly:cussbbq unit of pure pwnage. But getting back to the TH/SS issue with GKT, honestly if you run them you might as well run 2 as a single TH very well might not get a dread in cc in one turn. Getting the 3 to hit ok, but then needs a 5 to pen and still might not kill it. Honestly dreads should just get blown away by the mounted dual melta 5x IST, your local anti-deep strike shooty inquisitor, or a Crusader multi melta on a drive by. But that is in a perfect world lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungboy Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Getting the 3 to hit ok, but then needs a 5 to pen and still might not kill it. Don't you reduce its I to 1 if you damage but don't destroy it (using the TH rules in the rulebook) or reduce its I to "strikes last" if using the Codex rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I personally don't take Thunder hammers on my Grey knights, even tough I always try to get as many as possible on my space wolvesbut here is my Grand Masters layout: The sponge Grey knight Grand Master with Psycannon, Icon of the Just, Hammerhand, Retinue of 7 Grey knight Terminators 1 Incinerator. I gave it the name since my Terminators tend to have good luck on their saves, and so it usually takes a few turns of Concentrated fire to take them down, meaning less fire on the rest of my army, I have had one game where they did not do well, against a Dreadnought/Killa kan Ork army, my grand master fluffed his Hammerhand attacks on the Dread, out of 4 attacks none even glanced, as a result, he and his retinue died to the dread and kan mob they were fighting. Can power armoured Justicars take Hammerhand, if so I may try it. All advice welcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Justicars cannot take it no. That would make it way too overpowered. As for the question about THs, yes our THs make it so the opposing model hit by one strikes LAST in combat the next round. So like... if the hammernator whacks a dread and it doesn't go down and he hits it again the next phase, and the next etc... it could just not get to go again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2177820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendybadger Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I may be missing something but.. What is the 'retinue rule'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2178192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Refer to the "DH Gotcha" sticky at the top of the forum. Codex specifically states that characters with retinues do not count as IC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2178213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendybadger Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I thought that may have been it but I wasnt sure. Thats such a nice thing in a large GKGM with retinue Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2178217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Only real issue I'm having with the GKGM now is that all the SM heavy hitters are getting WS6 and the very best get eternal warrior... On the flipside, a relatively tooled GKGM is cheaper than Lysander and way cheaper than King Smurf and Logan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Stompalot Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 In regards to eternal warrior, remember that our force weapons dont cause instant death. The kill outright, very important difference, especially against nids Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 WS6 makes no different to our GM as he still hits on 4s anyway. And seeing as you cannot target him in combat if he has a retinue, even if he had WS6 you'd still be using the majority WS5 to hit. For 141 pts the GKGM is the best value HQ in the game after Vulkan imho. Give him 4 ablative GKTs as a retinue and they will go throw most units which aren't Howling Banshees or Broodlords quickly enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 In regards to eternal warrior, remember that our force weapons dont cause instant death. The kill outright, very important difference, especially against nids Can you seriously get away with doing this? I know that RAW is RAW but it just seems pretty cheap to call the exact same thing something else. Again, I haven't played since 4th so I dunno. Seems a little too much like rules lawyering and cheap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 It's the interpretation they use at official GW tournaments, so yeh that's how it is played. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
f.desrochers Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Can you seriously get away with doing this? I know that RAW is RAW but it just seems pretty cheap to call the exact same thing something else. Again, I haven't played since 4th so I dunno. Seems a little too much like rules lawyering and cheap. I've actually had two players with their Vulkan drop-pod lists call my army cheesy simply because I had BC Stern and his GM-like NFW. When they heard it bypasses Eternal Warrior (which as pointed out, is the interpretation enforced) they threw up their hands in utter disbelief and complaint. I've gotten to use this ability all of once, against a Tau Ethereal; and really, that I didn't just end up slicing him to pieces in combat and had to use the force weapon option to finish him off was embarrassing enough. Is it rules lawyering? I wouldn't say it is; the rule is pretty much outright in its wording and differs greatly enough from the BRB write-up for force weapons. I think the fact that our smoke launchers still reduces any penetrating hits to glances is more of an irritant than the whole fore weapon issue. But then really, complaining about such a minor ability in the overall context of the DH codex compared to other codices? ;francois Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2179841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendybadger Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think that both of those things give the GKs the little bit of something they need Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183737-pooling-your-knowledge-of-dh-part2/page/2/#findComment-2180147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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