Why ever take a Lord?

[Prot]

I have Huron as my main man now, and I never felt him quite worth the points,

 

I don't know..Huron 170 = lord 90 + PW 15 + PF 25 + per icon 5 + hvy flamer 5 (which no character can have) + WT 25 (which no other lord can have) = 165.

So +5 pts for 2 usefull things that no other character/lord/non-termi can have.? That's gotta be worth it right ?

 

Actually try a game with Khârn and you'll know where I'm coming from. He's a total beast compared to Huron. But I'm getting a bit off topic.

 

However, I just remember the total deal killer for Sorcerer Lord's.... one psychic power per turn means you can't use a Force Weapon AND Warp Time in the same turn. This is a total deal killer for me. A mark of Tzeentch puts it through the roof... a familiar doesn't solve the issue either.

 

BUT we are looking at this in a narrow view. What about 'theme'?

 

I'm now thinking of a Terminator Sorcerer with Warp Time, Mark of Slaanesh, Familiar, Lash of Submission in a squad of Termies. This brings him to a whopping 180 pts (if I throw in a combi plasma, but for 5 points, why not?). But now he's got some situational flexibility:

 

Situation 1: So now his purpose becomes multi function. And if you use him to summon daemons (I know they suck, but...) you use the mark to get the daemons where you want, Lash in a squad of something you want to hit, or tie up (Orks?) and the Daemons can assault the turn they come in. That's one situation.

 

Situation 2: The other would be you start the turn deep striking, Lash in a unit to get maximum firepower out of a good 3-4 combi-plasma's (hopefully rapid fire range). This could be a killer for a squad of mega armoured nobs or what not. If you decide to go rear armour hunting, this is where you wouldn't lash but the 5 pts spent on the Combi-plasma come in for the Sorcerer Lord.

 

Situation 3: You've done you fire power 'trickery' with Lash or what ever, but that doesn't mean the unit is spent. If it has MoK, even better, MoT means more survivable, but possibly too expensive for 1500 or under. Anyway, you follow up your shooting turn with an assault. Try to get the Lord in close combat with a multiwound character. Of course in this case you can't use Warp Time because you'd want to cash in on the whole force weapon thing.

 

In situation 3, if you're going against the ever growing in popularity 'eternal warrior' type, then you know force weapons aren't going to work, you cast Warp Time. Warp Time would get used on the opponent's turn as well if there is no viable Force Weapon target.

 

It may take some practice but with only one pysker power per turn, you could juggle Lash, Force Weapon, and Warp Time to the needs of the situation. I like this build because I feel if I take a Termie Sorcerer, and a Termie squad, I will not have points for a Landraider and still have a viable army. With this build, the lack of mobility is replaced by Lash. So as tempting as Mark of Tzeetnch is, it's unable to take lash. Mark of Slaanesh almost guarantees with initiative boost that you're going to get more usage out of a Force Weapon.

 

The build could work. Mark of Tzeentch IS tempting however. I've used it on Termie squads and I don't know what it is about a 4+ invulnerable vs. a 5+ invulnerable, but the squad just seems to become so much more survivable! But again, Lash would seem almost mandatory in the build I'm thinking of.

 

So I think I will try this. It could be horridly ineffective, but I'm sick of Daemon Prince HQ's. And I got inspired enough by this thread to start putting together that awesome model (the plastic Lord/Sorcerer) that's been sitting in my closet of shame for 6 months. :lol:

[bap2703]

But that's a sorcerer...

 

The point of this thread is to discuss about the lord !

[Prot]

A Sorcerer is a lord.... a Lord Sorcerer in fact.

 

This is an attempt to think beyond "Lord w/Daemon Weapon". The whole thread kind of leaned that way when people started doing the math on 'Warp Time' vs 'Daemon Weapon'.

 

I think it's a valid comparison regardless of the pysker comparison. I think the whole point is to try and find a valid 'generic' HQ choice that is not a Daemon Prince with Wings.

 

I'm still going to try my idea above and see if it holds water on the table. :P

[minigun762]

One thing that was mentioned off hand was that giving your HQ a shooting weapon isn't a bad idea since they're BS5.

 

Sorcerer with Doombolt is the cheapest/easiest method and its pretty good really. 3 shots = 2.5 = 1.25 dead Marines or 1.66 dead Guardsmen, not too shabby for a 10 point power with a 18" range.

 

Combi-weapons (Plasma/Melta) are a cheap addition if you really like your Terminator HQs. BS5 Melta shot to the face is always fun for tank busting.

 

The Tzeentch DW Lord has alot of the advantages of Doombolt Sorcerers but with more shots/more attacks/longer range and a better save. Of course the downside is that the unit is significantly more expensive, but a Dakka Lord isn't a bad idea at all.

[Brother Vader]

I'm still going to try my idea above and see if it holds water on the table.

 

I would use a cup, mug, glass or similar receptacle for that purpose. It will hold a significant amount

more water than a Chaos Lord and you won't risk ruining a nice paintjob. :P

 

I think the problem with the Lord is he provides no leadership to his troops, he's just a one-dimensional

combat character. By leadership I don't just mean an Ld boost, but some way of buffing the troops he

leads to represent his iron will/dominance/whatever, or gives you options to alter your army composition

in a way that is otherwise impossible. In the Chaos codex the only lord who does that is Fabius Bile.

You shouldn't have to do Mathhammer or work out devious equipment combinations to see the worth

of a character, he should have some quality that marks him out before any options are considered.

The only thing I can see that makes him genuinely different to the Sorc and DP is that he can take

both the MoK and be carried in a transport, so if you have a Mech Khorne list he's useful, other than

that he's a bit meh.

[JamesI]

A Sorcerer is a lord.... a Lord Sorcerer in fact.

 

This is an attempt to think beyond "Lord w/Daemon Weapon". The whole thread kind of leaned that way when people started doing the math on 'Warp Time' vs 'Daemon Weapon'.

 

I think it's a valid comparison regardless of the pysker comparison. I think the whole point is to try and find a valid 'generic' HQ choice that is not a Daemon Prince with Wings.

 

I'm still going to try my idea above and see if it holds water on the table. :P

Now, I play Tzeentch, so my opinion is skewed by being able to do the warptime/force weapon combo.

 

But I tried Lord with Demon Weapon and Sorceror with Warptime. In my experience, the warptime sorceror always does better than the demon weapon lord (again, this is a comparision of Tzeentch Marked characters, an unmarked Lord would even things out again and be cheaper too).

[IronWinds]

4 Base, before marks, two weapon fight, etc. Theres no reason the Sorceror, who has the bonus of powers, should have started out with a nearly identical statline to the Lord. The Lord should have had 4 base, instead of 3 like the sorceror.

 

Both come standard with 3attacks + cc weapons = 4.... why would I gip either an attack? There is a huge reason to have the Sorcerer start out with a nearly identical statline and powers... thats what he has! Saying the sorcerer had 3, when he comes stock w/ 4(cc weapons) would be extremely unfair to him, please explain why in the world I should of done that. Hence the purpose of the whole discussion is showing that he has nearly the same statline+powers, so why take a lord. Lord 3 base, pistol + cc weapon, 4 cc weapon attacks. Sorcerer 3 base, pistol + Force Weapon, 4 force weapon attacks.... at only 10pts more. Going back to my first post in this thread.... Sorcerer gets a force weapon for 10pts cost difference... when a power weapon is 15pts.... no wonder the sorcerer is better at lower costs. Why should I neuter the sorcerer just to give a lord an upper hand in a thread titled, "Why ever take a Lord?"

 

And yes the lord can take the MoK, which the sorcerer can't.... and thats why we included that special circumstance in the caulculations.

 

 

And thank you Brother Vadar. I always wondered why the Lord didn't do something... anything. He is suppose to be a Chaos Lord, a scary person. Demon prince= combat monster. Sorcerer=psyker -shooty or assault. Lord=ummmm you didn't want the other 2 :huh: or you really like demon weapons. Lords use to be 1st picks, and the fluffiest picks. Lord makes any unit he has joined fearless would have been a nice start, and maybe add some bonus to the unit he is in if he has a certain mark. MoK=FC.... There simple.... and makes perfect sense with terminators now.

[Corpse.]

Why ever take a lord?

Except for a Daemon Weapon

 

Well its already been mentioned, twin claws and a mark depending on your tastes. He can also include a combi-melta with twin claws. He can also take meltabombs with those claws. A single str8+2D6(7 average) attack is worth at least 2 str6+2D6(+7 average=13 on a land raider) attacks IMO. But the prince gets more then that on a charge, so its not a heavy difference between the two.

 

The chaos lord can be hidden inside a unit when it comes to firepower. And in a larger unit, where many models are in base to base contact with the unit the lord is with and cannot focus their attacks on him in mass (or even a powerfist if you charge the Pfist with other models and not the lord/sorc). Pg41 and Pg 49 of the rulebook. I have avoided powerfists lately because I sit my character on the opposite end, trying hard to get the lone powerfist in contact with other models and not my HQ. Allowing my versatile daemon weapons do their thing when required to (especially the slaanesh one).

 

Does a lord need a daemon weapon to function? No. Does it need a daemon weapon to set it apart from the other choices? Yes. If you can successfully defend your HQ, even to the point of sitting it behind the unit when you charge if the defenders react will let them sit their powerfist on your HQ, do what you have to do. Since you most likely will have the lord/sorc with your units, they will often have a powerfist if you're wise, and that can offset the anti tank in melee combat on top of any meltabombs you give the lord and the krak grenades and the meltaguns and so on.

 

Lords/Sorcs are not standalone like the princes. They are combo models. The sorcerer has instant death ability, and if its not a tzeentch sorc (that the cost raises heavily, and lower success rate versus WS5 and WS6 without warptime or costing a ton with MoT). Compared to a slaanesh lord with daemon weapon. Could say their success rate is near same with the chance to roll a 1 and the comparison the the less killy attacks against another HQ with a 4+ invlunerable save.

 

Calculate that perhaps, Slaanesh DW lord versus a non-MoT sorc trying for a force weapon kill.

[IronWinds]

Sorcerer can also take meltabombs, combi melta, and hide in squads.

 

 

 

On the MoS DW Lord... well I put except for a DW in the title because if you want a DW a Lord does make sense. A MoS DW can instakill multiple models, there really isn't a comparison to a FW there. However that is also a risky combo, which is why a lot of people don't like it. But a lord w/ DW does make sense, and for a termy lord MoK and twin claws makes sense. Other than those 2 situations a sorcerer is almost always better because he can take the exact same gear and do the same things + having a force weapon and powers.

[Brother Vader]

And thank you Brother Vadar. I always wondered why the Lord didn't do something... anything. He is suppose to be a Chaos Lord, a scary person. Demon prince= combat monster. Sorcerer=psyker -shooty or assault. Lord=ummmm you didn't want the other 2 or you really like demon weapons. Lords use to be 1st picks, and the fluffiest picks. Lord makes any unit he has joined fearless would have been a nice start, and maybe add some bonus to the unit he is in if he has a certain mark. MoK=FC.... There simple.... and makes perfect sense with terminators now.

 

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of IronWinds. I can take a Black Templars Marshall for 80pts and even if I give him no wargear he's still giving my whole army Ld10. I don't need to justify him with math-hammer or with clever wargear loadouts, I can see his benefit.

 

I'd go further with the Chaos Lord. I'd have kept all the cult troops as Elites and the Lord would allow you to field cult troops of his mark as Troops, like it used to be. (Maybe fielding Termies or Chosen as troops for the Undivided one). You wouldn't see any Twin Lash DP + Plague Marine armies then (just 1 lash DP + PM armies!). There would be a real point to him then. I don't think Chaos needs cult troops in the 'troops' category, the normal CSM squad is a good unit with plenty of options (way more options than us BT players have and we only have 1 troops choice, albeit a pretty good one).

 

I'm not someone who thinks that simplifying a Codex is automatically a bad thing, too many special rules for this and that can get in the way of game mechanics, but this current codex has meant that my Chaos army is resolutely defending carry cases rather than seeing any action. This debate about the worth of the Lord is a good example. This debate really shouldn't be happening.

[JamesI]

Sorcerer can also take meltabombs, combi melta, and hide in squads.

Sorceror's can't take combi-weapons (except in terminator armor).

[bap2703]

Calculate that perhaps, Slaanesh DW lord versus a non-MoT sorc trying for a force weapon kill.

 

Calculation versus a WS5/4 and T4. This represent normal wounds (to hit * to wound). It doesn't take into account the fact that you can remove several wounds at a time.

The result is expected : the slaanesh lord (135 pts) is used in the situation it is designed for while the sorcerer (100+power pts) is not at its best.

 

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9121/stathq3.png

[Prot]

That graph definitely points to 3 wounds being the magic number in that situation. However, math-hammer aside, tonight I'm testing out my build mentioned earlier: Sorc-Lord, MoS, Familiar, Warp Time, Lash, Termie Armour, Combi-Plasma.

 

Used in conjunction with my shooty Termie squad, I'm very curious. It will be a first for me to pull out this model, but if nothing else, this thread motivated me to assemble one of the coolest models that came out with our current codex. ;)