HERO Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've seen this everywhere.. on Warseer, Dakkadakka, BoLS and especially here.. What exactly are you guys unhappy about in the CSM codex? I'm not asking for balance proposals.. or what your wishlist is.. I'm simply asking you what's wrong with the book. Out of all the books that I've seen released, I've seen this codex being hate on the most; so much that the designer blogged about it. Please enlighten me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've seen this everywhere.. on Warseer, Dakkadakka, BoLS and especially here.. What exactly are you guys unhappy about in the CSM codex? I'm not asking for balance proposals.. or what your wishlist is.. I'm simply asking you what's wrong with the book. Out of all the books that I've seen released, I've seen this codex being hate on the most; so much that the designer blogged about it. Please enlighten me. Speaking for myself, its the fact that its really Codex: Chaos Renegades, not Codex: Chaos Legions. The difference is that for the most part, it plays like a bunch of pissed off normal Space Marines instead of 10,000 year old Veterans of the long war. We want Chaos Marines to be something different and unique with a rich (?) daemonic heritage and a wide variety of veteran skills. Oh and Icons need to go away and be replaced by Marks. You shouldn't lose your faith because your stick fell on the ground. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuden Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Pretty much same as what minigun said, but also, coming from starting CSM with the 3rd edition dex I really hate the loss of having a very customized Chaos Lord that I feel compares rules wise to the fluff you make for him. I mean I loved my old Chaos Lord now he's taking up a spot on a shelf and my daemon prince, cool as he is, has next to no options (no DAEMON weapons for a DAEMON prince!?) to really give me the feeling that he's special. Oh, and Sorcerers seem really weak for a Librarian who decided to throw the rulebook out for forbidden power. Force Weapons were a welcome upgrade, but thats a CC upgrade for a unit that should have amazing shooting abilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 See the twelve page thread right next to yours ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've seen this everywhere.. on Warseer, Dakkadakka, BoLS and especially here.. What exactly are you guys unhappy about in the CSM codex? I'm not asking for balance proposals.. or what your wishlist is.. I'm simply asking you what's wrong with the book. Out of all the books that I've seen released, I've seen this codex being hate on the most; so much that the designer blogged about it. Please enlighten me. Chaos has had a history of see-sawing between tons of detail, and basically none. Realms of Chaos was released, and that set the bar for what Chaos should be like. Utter power, but tempered with the fact your Lord could also become braindead, or whathaveyou. 2nd Ed came out, and toned down the D1000 tables for mutations and Chaos weapon properties, but kept the feeling of massive variance between the factions. Then, we had 3.0... Daemon princes suddenly became a set profile with options for a Mark only, Marks could only be given to Cult Champions and HQ, and Veterans displayed their thousands of years of tactical prowess by learning how to pick up a bolt pistol instead of their bolter. The backlash against this codex was so severe they had to create the Index Astartes articles in order to give some choice back to the varied Legion. Even so, 3.0 had God-specific Daemons, so that has to count for something... They learned from that mistake, and made 3.5. Options all over the place, and for the first time Chaos Marines were shown as truly being veterans of the Long War. Veteran Skills became widely available, and Chosen were introduced instead of Veterans. Unfortunately, this codex had two problems with it. One, they gave some of the sub-lists to a guy who absolutely adored one of the Legions (Iron Warriors) and disliked another (Thousand Sons), and the results were as to be expected. The other fault is that by the time 3.5 came out, the game was gaining a very tournament-oriented mindset amongst players, so the potential the codex had for utter creativity and being able to make whatever sort of HQ you wanted, in favour of simply making the most obscenely powerful combat monster you could, or by abusing the Iron Warriors sublist, and making the Gunline Of DOOM! And now, for some reason they decided to go against what history has shown them, and reintroduced the least popular of the previous formats. It sure as hell didn't work before, so obviously the "logical" choice is to try again, but to limit things even more, such as the removal of god-specific Daemons! They took everything that didn't work with 3.0, and amped it up a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Important Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've seen this everywhere.. on Warseer, Dakkadakka, BoLS and especially here.. What exactly are you guys unhappy about in the CSM codex? I'm not asking for balance proposals.. or what your wishlist is.. I'm simply asking you what's wrong with the book. Out of all the books that I've seen released, I've seen this codex being hate on the most; so much that the designer blogged about it. Please enlighten me. Chaos has had a history of see-sawing between tons of detail, and basically none. Realms of Chaos was released, and that set the bar for what Chaos should be like. Utter power, but tempered with the fact your Lord could also become braindead, or whathaveyou. 2nd Ed came out, and toned down the D1000 tables for mutations and Chaos weapon properties, but kept the feeling of massive variance between the factions. Then, we had 3.0... Daemon princes suddenly became a set profile with options for a Mark only, Marks could only be given to Cult Champions and HQ, and Veterans displayed their thousands of years of tactical prowess by learning how to pick up a bolt pistol instead of their bolter. The backlash against this codex was so severe they had to create the Index Astartes articles in order to give some choice back to the varied Legion. Even so, 3.0 had God-specific Daemons, so that has to count for something... They learned from that mistake, and made 3.5. Options all over the place, and for the first time Chaos Marines were shown as truly being veterans of the Long War. Veteran Skills became widely available, and Chosen were introduced instead of Veterans. Unfortunately, this codex had two problems with it. One, they gave some of the sub-lists to a guy who absolutely adored one of the Legions (Iron Warriors) and disliked another (Thousand Sons), and the results were as to be expected. The other fault is that by the time 3.5 came out, the game was gaining a very tournament-oriented mindset amongst players, so the potential the codex had for utter creativity and being able to make whatever sort of HQ you wanted, in favour of simply making the most obscenely powerful combat monster you could, or by abusing the Iron Warriors sublist, and making the Gunline Of DOOM! And now, for some reason they decided to go against what history has shown them, and reintroduced the least popular of the previous formats. It sure as hell didn't work before, so obviously the "logical" choice is to try again, but to limit things even more, such as the removal of god-specific Daemons! They took everything that didn't work with 3.0, and amped it up a bit. QFT Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 See the twelve page thread right next to yours ;)Old beaten dead horse is old beaten and dead. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/183828-the-big-question/#findComment-2173477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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