If you HAD to use Vanguard Veterans...

[Khavos]

Pretty self-explanatory topic. Yes, Vanguard are far too expensive. Yes, 5 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider will do what the Vanguard do better - except for two things, in my opinion: maintaining a fast assault "feel" for your list, and remaining mobile without dedicated transport. 'Cause the fluff-monkey in my head wonders what a small engagement 1500 list is doing rolling around with one of the most prized pieces of Imperial equipment, and the tactician that fights with the monkey is wondering what happens when a suicide deep striking unit blows the Land Raider on turn one.

 

So. You've got a big, expensive Vanguard unit with a few Lightning Claws, a few Power Fists, and a few Storm Shield 3+ invulnerable saves...and jump packs. How do you keep your scared, overpriced, oft-insulted Vanguard safe in the big, bad, hostile world of 5th edition where mechanized is the gospel, Lash of Submission negates them as a threat, and AP2 is everywhere?

 

Extra credit for doing it without a Shrike-assisted first turn infiltrated fleeting assault. And just to tie one more hand behind your back, how 'bout they start on the board with an IC attached rather than Heroic Intervening?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

10 man squad in a DP, with some goodies and no jump packs.

[Grey Mage]

Footslogging, with every second member using a PW, and every Third member having a stormshield- those who would have both get a lightning claw. The seargent would get a Thunderhammer.

 

Then, I would put them in a rhino.

 

OR

 

Id just take five, give them jump packs, 2 of them Stormshields, Thunderhammer Seargent again, and 2 sets of lightning claws- and use them as a counterassault unit.

 

OR

 

Lastly, 10 strong, with jump packs- 2 sets of lightning claws, thunderhammer, 2 stormshields, five regular men- keep the points down.

[Khavos]

10 man squad in a DP, with some goodies and no jump packs.

 

Sort of removes their mobility, doesn't it?

 

Footslogging, with every second member using a PW, and every Third member having a stormshield- those who would have both get a lightning claw. The seargent would get a Thunderhammer.

 

Then, I would put them in a rhino.

 

Not bad. Still spendy, and would require an awful lot of careful maneuvering to get a charge off.

 

Id just take five, give them jump packs, 2 of them Stormshields, Thunderhammer Seargent again, and 2 sets of lightning claws- and use them as a counterassault unit.

 

Pretty decent, but I'd like to be a little more proactive with them.

 

Lastly, 10 strong, with jump packs- 2 sets of lightning claws, thunderhammer, 2 stormshields, five regular men- keep the points down.

 

Closer to what I'm going for. Just Rhino-shield them until they can charge, I take it?

[KhorneHunter57x]

What about a Khan-assisted outflanking Jump-Packing assault on turn 2-5?

 

Personally, my favorite way of fielding Vanguard is as a 5-man squad with free Power Weapon, 1 Thunder Hammer, and give the Sgt. Meltabombs. They Heroically Intervene into a sitting-back Devastator-style squad, and if I lose them they are cheap enough that I won't cry.

 

But because you tied my hands, and because my Dorn gene-seed prevents me from acid-spitting the rope holding my hand behind my back, I would probably use them in a 10-man Jump Pack-equipped squad (5 upgraded, 5 meat-shields) with either an attached Jump Pack Chaplain or Librarian with Force Dome.

[Giga]

10 Vanguard, serge replaces power sword with power fist, another veteran gets a powerfist, and three veterans get storm shields. Comes out at 305 pts.

 

Ofc, a supporting HQ is mandatory. Pedro is IMHO the best option. Cassius is also great. If you don't want SCs, then a standard chaplain with a power fist will do the job.

 

Needless to say, they would also need a land raider with extra armor.

 

Might seem overly expensive, but in fact is just 105 points more expensive then the same deal with 5 terminators instead of vanguard. I'd even go as far to say that, with pedro's +1 attack aura, the vanguard would be a better deal for anti-infantry and almost as good for everything else.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Khan is a really good HQ support for vanguard with his furious charge rule. He can make their land raider outflank, too, which is a really nice addition in some battles.

[InquisitorHayn]

Honestly, I would say don't waste your time. Without Heroic Intervention or some other kind of ability (such as Shrike's) to put them in immediate reach, the vanguard aren't worth their salt as the QRF they were intended to be. Just an overpriced and underprotected assault squad with beatsticks that will be unlikely to touch their intended targets. They're made to be cleanup hitters, IMO. I personally use HI to bring them down on a unit that i've locked in combat with a lesser force.

 

You could probably try to cover them with artillery or snipers, especially if you're running Telion to take out individual threats. Anything that would present a larger immediate threat than your vanguards to draw the opponent's focus, giving you time to close the gap.

 

That said, I'm curious how you intend to use them. It seems you're intentionally limiting your options (unless you've already modeled them sans jump packs).

[Grey Mage]

If you use the 25%+ of cover that GW reccommend you wont have any problems with Vangaurd.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

10 man squad in a DP, with some goodies and no jump packs.

 

Sort of removes their mobility, doesn't it?

 

 

Yes it does, but it doesn't matter so much by that time. I am not going to say 6 is as good as 12, that would be silly. If you have dropped them in a thoughtful position then lesser movement won't matter AND you have saved 65 points.

 

I RUN my Crusaders and in all but one instance nothing has escaped them in the last 5 games. When combined with a DP you are already in the action.

 

I see what you are saying, but if you give it a try, I believe you will find it can work <_<

[tahrikmili]

I believe keeping the cost down is key, most people try to do too much with this unit ALONE and become too scared of losing it.

 

It's basically an expensive assault squad with +1A/Ld and access to better wargear. That doesn't mean you HAVE TO take that gear. Think of this unit in the context of your army and give them only what they need to survive alongside the other units, not what they need to survive alone. They can't table the opponent by themselves.

 

While the OP asks not to, I think it's stupid to not exploit a special rule you pay for as default. Heroic Intervention is one such rule. Being able to assault on the turn you deep strike is beautiful. It's deadly, it's scary, and it allows for real surgical strikes. Considering this unit can be armed with (but doesn't necessarily need to be armed with) the best weapons in the game, USE IT! This is where synergy kicks in - the Vanguards need NOT operate in a vacuum. Every drop pod can be given a Locator Beacon. If you drop pod any Dreadnoughts (and almost everyone does these days), upgrade it with a LB. More than likely your enemy will be more concerned by the Dreadnought than the Drop Pod. This way the Vanguard can Deep Strike reliably, they will inevitably be close to the enemy, and crush them.

 

(I would never ever take a melee Vanguard without jumppacks. It's silly to, when you could take a Command Squad instead.)

 

As for armament, don't go OTT. These boys have a huge volume of attacks (2 from stat +1 from CCW, +1 from charge = 4 per model). You DON'T need to arm them all to crush an enemy unit, even the strongest. Volume of attacks can do wonders. Take the following:

 

6 Vanguards:

1 Relic Blade (Sergeant)

1 Thunder Hammer

1 Power Weapon

1 Storm Shield

 

You have 3 S6 I4 PW attacks, check

You have 4 S4 I4 PW attacks, check

You have 3 S8 I1 TH attacks, check

You have 1 3++ save, check

You have 12 S4 I4 CCW attacks

3 ablative wounds

 

Quite affordable if you ask me.

 

There is also this Bat:cuss insane Vanguard build I'm considering:

10 Vanguards:

1 Power Fist (Sergeant)

9 Plasma Pistols

Drop Pod

 

9 S7 AP2 pistol shots

2 S8 I1 PF attacks (3 on the charge)

27 S4 I4 CCW attacks (36 on the charge)

 

Woe to you of earth and sea, for the Emperor sends Plasma with wrath. <_< They don't pack that much CC gear but after so many Plasma Shots, anything they asault will have no chance whatsoever.

 

(Add a Locator Beacon tot he Drop Pod and Heroic Intervention for the first Vanguard Squad to follow suit FTW)

 

EDIT: I’m at work and don’t have a Codex at hand – could anyone please calculate points for these two builds? I'm mostly interested in how well the 2nd build compares to a 10 man Sternguard with Combi-Plasmas.

[KhorneHunter57x]

10 man squad in a DP, with some goodies and no jump packs.

 

Sort of removes their mobility, doesn't it?

 

 

Yes it does, but it doesn't matter so much by that time. I am not going to say 6 is as good as 12, that would be silly. If you have dropped them in a thoughtful position then lesser movement won't matter AND you have saved 65 points.

 

I RUN my Crusaders and in all but one instance nothing has escaped them in the last 5 games. When combined with a DP you are already in the action.

 

I see what you are saying, but if you give it a try, I believe you will find it can work <_<

 

But your Crusader Squads have Zeal. The Jump Packs are the Vanguard's RZ.

 

I agree that a good, cheap Vanguard squad with Heroic and Jump Packs can change the tide of a game.

 

Read Captain Idaho's Using Uber Units article in the Librarium for more insparation on how to use these veterans to full effect with the rest of your force.

[Khavos]

That said, I'm curious how you intend to use them. It seems you're intentionally limiting your options (unless you've already modeled them sans jump packs).

 

Oh, I'm definitely trying to use them with the JPs rather than not. I like units that are self-mobile, as I'm trying to fight my way out of the straitjacket of "take a Land Raider and TH/SS termies" as the only viable option. Right now I'm figuring a unit of 8, JPs, 1 PF, 3 LCs, 3 THs...and of course my jump Captain attached as well, which is why the no Heroic Intervention caveat in the initial question.

[Khavos]

While the OP asks not to, I think it's stupid to not exploit a special rule you pay for as default.

 

I put the "don't use HI" request in there because I'd intended to run them with my JP Captain. I like CC-oriented HQs that get used in CC; support guys faffing about with Tacticals just don't fit my playstyle. If you can suggest a better killer unit that isn't TH/SS termies in a LR, I'm definitely all ears.

[thade]

Your friendly neighborhood foot-slogging vanguard nut here. <3

 

Heroic Intervention is pretty cool, but not worth not putting them into a transport in my experience. Sure, they'll come out of the sky and kill whatever they hit...when they come out of reserve, and if they don't scatter somewhere that they won't be able to assault anything at all. (Note that they cannot use HI from a Drop Pod, as the HI rules state they need jump packs equipped.)

 

I put my vanguard in at least a Rhino/Razorback (usually a Rhino as I'll run the vanguard at at least seven marines, usually with some kind of IC), but my preferred mode of transport for them is a LRR or Crusader. It's expensive and it sort of marries me to the vanguard (at 500ish points they HAVE to make their points back...but they have many times for me) but they are fun and not as "overdone" as Terminators. :lol: Also, Vanguard can Sweeping Advance: never underestimate the value of this. I have had two surviving vanguard members and a techmarine take out a Tau command squad, three fire warrior squads, and a unit of power suits over the course of three turns, all because of creative charging and the sweeping advance rule. Termies can't Sweep.

 

I agree with the armament model most people have ventured above. I always run at least 2-3 "Shield Bearers"...these marines get storm shields and nothing else. I'll also run 1-2 vanilla veterans. Shield Bearers and vanillas exist to soak hits, both reducing the number of saves the power-weapon toting guys have to take and to soak marine-killing firepower (i.e. meltas, lascannons, etc). I always take a relic blade, but I think I'm going to swap that out for a lit claw-equipped serg in light of recent discussions on this board. I use a marine with a power sword and a marine with a power fist. Occasionally I get a bit cheeky and use a model with two thunder hammers...and while he's never earned his points back, and I'd never use him in a "serious" game, he looks intimidating as hell. =)

 

Vanguard is very, very good against balanced and shooty armies. Vanguard is tricky at best or even flat out difficult against melee-oriented armies...because they have a tendency to get overwhelmed and it becomes harder to single out units (all the melee masses of, say, an Ork tide will just surrouned and maul them...bye bye 300-500 pts).

 

Summary: I really really enjoy using vanguard. I do sometimes use airborne vanguard. I'm playing with the idea of fielding both in a friendly game to see how it works. But for tournament-play I'm starting to gravitate towards a more shooty marine army.

[Race Bannon]

5-man, with JP and meltabombs on the Sergeant. Done. And I would drop them as close to the target unit as possible, let fate decide the rest. I don;t build a "catch-all" list or units so I'm not worried about loadout for every game. But if I had to have them, then I'd use the special rule and keep them dirt cheap on the 1/3 chance I'll actually use it and it be awesome when it happens.

[ShinyRhino]

If I was using them, I'd go for a full 10-man squad with a sprinkling of weapon upgrades and shields, and Heroically Intervene them. land them, split into combat squads on arrival, and charge two different shooty units.

[Deus de Mortalis]

I just think they are way too expensive. A regular assault squad has 18pt marines while the vanguard squad has 30pt marines with 1 extra attack. You add special weapons and that price shoots up like crazy. They will cost more than terminators but die just as easily as a normal marine. I feel that an assault squad with a chaplain is almost as powerful as a vanguard squad while remaining cheaper.

[Rioniku Anjiru]

I like to run a unit of 4-5 honor guards with Kantor in a Razorback. With all power weapons stock and Kantor's +1A (Giving them a total ot 4/5 on the charge, 5/6 on the charge for the champion, plus Kantor's 3/4 PFist) they rip pretty much anything apart. They also get 2+ save, Kantor's 4++ if necessary (And they can't melee-snipe him since the guards are a retinue).

 

A charge with a 4-man unit of honor guards means 21 power weapon attacks and 4 power fist attacks (with 5 WS on 9 of those). All that for 190pts (Plus Kantor of course, but when was he not worth his cost! :lol:

 

This may be somewhat off topic but I was trying to get across that I find the Vanguards hard to jsutify at their point cost - it's pretty much the only unit I feel GW really miscalculated.

 

I'd rather use a larger unit of combat squadded, deep striking assault marines if I need the deep strike, or the above unit if I need power cowbell. :rolleyes:

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a big fan of Honour Guard and I do agree with your points, except this one:

 

They also get 2+ save, Kantor's 4++ if necessary (And they can't melee-snipe him since the guards are a retinue

 

Honour Guard are not a retinue of any kind, so you cannot do this. This is because the Master can leave the unit during the game. Check out page 48 under retinues.

[Rioniku Anjiru]

Well that... kinda sucks heh.

 

"WE ARE HONOUR BOUND TO GUARD THIS CHAPTER MASTER"

"Yeah well I was thinking about directing all of my squad's attacks onto him."

"WE'RE COOL WITH THAT"

 

Either way, still a great unit.

 

And I think, getting back to the topic at hand, that a small unit of lightly equipped vanguard dropped into a squishy firebase such as devs would work really well. Still pricy though.

[chapter master 454]

Well as someone who asked Matt ward himself at GDUK'09 about vanguards, he stated that the reason for their cost is purely based upon the devastation Heroic intervention can do. To back that statement think about zagstruk and his crew of stormboyz, I've been tabled because the guy can bypass the 'one turn grace' which is what earth armies use to deprive the enemy of this (back defenders often carry ether high wound causing weapons or Low AP weapons) however if you look at it the vanguard can do serious damage to earth armies and even water armies (How can you react to something that you can't predict nor stop doing it's max damage. Thats a Killhammer of extremely high number, unkillable and if it reachs it max K then oh dear).

 

Vanguard are more insulted for it and I admit was one of the many however in recent events and thinking about what people have found out they are extremely good. They are a more finese tool and if taking a DP army, these guys could seriously hurt any enemy bad (Since drop pods have the ability to just DS practically anywhere). Locator beacon + HI vanguards = pain for any army. It's unreal what they could do. Strange but while they look a little risky, it's something that if it works will hammer the enemy, and third of the time it works and a good few other times it will still work despite scatter (If I remember once, someone scattered and at first looked like it was bang into a enemy unit. Low and behold it had in fact passed right pass the unit in a very funny manner, sometimes I guess Box cars helps!) so I might one day make a few vanguards, to heck with models I just love converting (Space puppies packs are so perfect for a scottish themed army! Ok some anime but mainly scottish!)

[Khavos]

I just think they are way too expensive. A regular assault squad has 18pt marines while the vanguard squad has 30pt marines with 1 extra attack. You add special weapons and that price shoots up like crazy. They will cost more than terminators but die just as easily as a normal marine. I feel that an assault squad with a chaplain is almost as powerful as a vanguard squad while remaining cheaper.

 

So for a jump pack Captain with the usual Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificer Armor, you'd just throw him in a regular Assault squad?

 

I dunno, just doesn't seem killy enough to me. But I'm a noob, so who knows.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I run an 8 man squad with 3 power weapons in a LRC.

the squad costs 215pts

 

I then run them with ether:

Chaplain for the reroll to hit

Khan for the Furious Charge

Cantor for the +1 attacks

 

 

Cantor has the most synergy with the Vanguard; more bodies to give extra attacks to.

[Khavos]

@Rioniku and Idaho:

 

I love Honor Guard. If I could field them without a Chapter Master, I wouldn't even be asking about Vanguard. Unfortunately, I don't build with a pure, precise competitiveness; fluff has to enter into it somewhere, and I just can't reconcile the master of a Space Marine chapter going for a 1500 point small-scale walk in the woods with a rare, extremely valuable Land Raider and five of his closest, most badass buddies. Given my chapter's assault theme, though, Vanguard can make it in. I've tooled up some Command Squads for CC in prospective lists, but they just don't match the killing power of HG with a banner.

 

@Everyone else:

 

Thanks for all the responses, folks. What I was really trying to go for here is an alternative to the LR/Assault Terminator combo in the form of a jump squad, and while a lot of these suggestions are definitely interesting - not to mention viable - it ultimately looks like that I'll either have to go with said combo, settle for a Heroic Intervention Vanguard unit and stick my (intended) assault-oriented HQ elsewhere, or else shell out a ton of points on a unit that would in all probability not survive to kill its worth.

 

Depressing.

[Grey Mage]

Note- the only difference between a captain and a chapter master is an Orbital Strike.

 

Are you telling me a captain with a Strike Cruiser under his command, and probable IG support, would NOT be able to call down a lance strike somewhere on the field of battle if he chose?

 

Cause I think your fluff might be off if you are. ^_^.