Mark of the Wulfen vs Power Weapon

[Sven Bloodskull]

Oke, my normal Grey Hunters Pack's look like this:

 

9 Grey hunters with Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen

WG with Powerfist

Rhino

 

Now, i just rememberd that for the same point cost, i can have a power weapon.... so i'm wondering should i switch the mark of the wulfen out for power weapon's, or leave it like it is?

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Hfran Morkai]

The power weapon is much more reliable as any wounds ignore armour saves wheras only sixes on mark of the wulfen can, however there is the aility for more attacks with MotW. I see it more as a power weapon being a more competitive build and MotW being more fun to use. (Though I currently use neither myself)

 

So I suggest you mix it up a little.

[Natanael]

I've got both. Then again, my GH squads go like this:

 

10 GH

2x Plasma, PLasma Pistol, Wulfen, Standard, Power Weapon, Rhino

[CainTheHunter]

Are there any con-s for using both upgrades, except points-wise? I will try to test this variant, though I don't use WG with GH.

My typical mechanised GH unit is: 10 x GH, 2 x MG, 1 x PW, Rhino EA - adding a MotW would make the squad 235 points and add some additional CC capability. It would also allow to field some Wulfen models, which otherwise collect dust on the shelves.

[daemonwolf]

I believe the mark is superior, it's good against armoured opponents but also usefull againts armour.

It's worse against terminatours (or others with a 2+ save), but almost always better against everything else than a power weapon for the same amount of points.

Some quik math (rounded figures):

 

Charge/counter charge Power Weapon (3A):

To hit (WS4):3 x ½ = 1.5 hit

To wound (t5): 1.5 x 1/3 = 0.5 kill

To wound (t4): 1.5 x 1/2 = 0.75 kill

To wound (t3): 1.5 x 2/3 = 1.0 kill

 

Charge/counter charge Mark (5.5A):

To hit (WS4):5.5 x ½ = 2.75 hit

 

To wound rend (t5): 2.75 x 1/6 = 0.458 kill & To wound (t5): 2.75 x 1/6 = 0.458 wound

2+ save: 0.458 x 1/6 = 0.076 0.076 + 0.458 = 0.534 kill

3+ save: 0.458 x 1/3 = 0.153 0.153 + 0.458 = 0.611 kill

4+ save: 0.458 x 1/2 = 0.229 0.229 + 0.458 = 0.687 kill

5+ save: 0.458 x 2/3 = 0.305 0.305 + 0.458 = 0.763 kill

6+ save: 0.458 x 5/6 = 0.382 0.382 + 0.458 = 0.84 kill

 

To wound rend (t4): 2.75 x 1/6 = 0.458 kill & To wound (t4): 2.75 x 1/3 = 0.917 wound

2+ save: 0.917 x 1/6 = 0.153 0.153 + 0.458 = 0.611 kill

3+ save: 0.917 x 1/3 = 0.306 0.306 + 0.458 = 0.764 kill

4+ save: 0.917 x 1/2 = 0.459 0.459 + 0.458 = 0.917 kill

5+ save: 0.917 x 2/3 = 0.611 0.305 + 0.458 = 1.069 kill

6+ save: 0.917 x 5/6 = 0.764 0.382 + 0.458 = 1.222 kill

 

To wound rend (t3): 2.75 x 1/6 = 0.458 kill & To wound (t3): 2.75 x 2/3 = 1.833 wound

2+ save: 1.833 x 1/6 = 0.306 0.306 + 0.458 = 0.764 kill

3+ save: 1.833 x 1/3 = 0.611 0.611 + 0.458 = 1.069 kill

4+ save: 1.833 x 1/2 = 0.917 0.917 + 0.458 = 1.375 kill

5+ save: 1.833 x 2/3 = 1.222 1.222 + 0.458 = 1.680 kill

6+ save: 1.833 x 5/6 = 1.528 1.528 + 0.458 = 1.986 kill

 

It get's better for the Mark if you didn't charge/counter charge, because you lose 1/5.5 attacks instead of 1/3 of your attacks

[BDS]

The cost of pwr wpn + wulfen is 30pts. A PF is 25 pts. We have all taken PF's at 25pts for years. I point being for 5 more points we have been given up to 10 more attacks with possibility fo rending, etc.

 

So, I like both in any squad save dedicated objective holders.

 

Cpl' Fangs

BDS

[CainTheHunter]

It get's better for the Mark if you didn't charge/counter charge, because you lose 1/5.5 attacks instead of 1/3 of your attacks

 

Does it? Dex says that attacks granted by MotW are not affected by wargear, but are still bolstered by other factors. Specifically examples of bonuses for charging and Logan's Living Legend ability are given. So for a charging model with MotW will always have at least 3 attacks, even if "1" is rolled on D6 = 1 + 1 + 1 (bonus for charging).

[daemonwolf]

@CainTheHunter

Charging grey hunter with power weapon: 1+1+1 = 3 attacks, not charging: 1+1=2 attacks

You lose 1/3 of your attacks when not charging

 

Charging grey hunter with mark (average): 1+1+3.5 = 5.5 attack, not charging = 1+3,5=4.5 attacks

you lose 1/5.5 of your attacks when not charging

 

So what I meant to say is that a Mark of the wulven is even more effective in my math example when the greyhunter gets no charge bonus, compared to a grey hunter with a power weapon that does not get a charge bonus.

[MaleOpener]

I prefer the MotW, when gearing a pack for anti-tank duties.

 

If the pack is geared for anti-troop (saves up to 2+), then I take the PW.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean I won't use my anti-tank pack, to kill troops.

 

 

Maybe you heard this story before, but I think it's a good example.

 

I was against a Tau player, who LOVED his suits, and pretty much had a deployment preset for each race he would encounter. Now, I have only used my WSs for a few games, so I didn't form an opinion of them yet. They were a 5man pack, having a meltagun, 1 with a plasma pistol, and 1 with the MotW (later adding models with another plasma pistol & melta bombs ). So, I brought them along ...

 

As luck would have it, I got the chance to pick which edge they appeared from. Wanting to have a little fun, I plopped them near his suits. He didn't have much of a poker-face, so I figured this action made him feel uneasy. To make a long story short, I managed to "chew" through this crisis suits, only to be stomped out by the broadsides. Seriously, his crisis suits were rescued by his broadsides!

 

He never lived that down, and I have a healthy respect for WS ... and the MotW.

[Oldenhaller]

@CainTheHunter

Charging grey hunter with power weapon: 1+1+1 = 3 attacks, not charging: 1+1=2 attacks

You lose 1/3 of your attacks when not charging

 

Charging grey hunter with mark (average): 1+1+3.5 = 5.5 attack, not charging = 1+3,5=4.5 attacks

you lose 1/5.5 of your attacks when not charging

 

So what I meant to say is that a Mark of the wulven is even more effective in my math example when the greyhunter gets no charge bonus, compared to a grey hunter with a power weapon that does not get a charge bonus.

 

You're of course forgetting countercharge...

 

Most of the time wolves will be either 3 attacks on the charge or reciving it.

 

~O

[daemonwolf]

@Oldenhaller

Dindn't forget it. The remark is for the second round of combat or if you don't make your leadership test with the counter charge (trust me, it happens...).

 

Since you will have 3 / 5.5 attacks most of the time thats the original calculation I posted.

I added a comment that if you don't have the charge / counter charge bonus, the Mark gets even better then a power weapon in comparison.

This is because you lose a smaller percentage of your total attacks with a mark then with a power weapon.

[daemonwolf]

doublepost....

[Oldenhaller]

I'm not sure then you can arbirarilly ignore it - trying to compare a random amount of attacks from MotW to the less random amount for countercharge but not including the averages of it seems a little misleading. Additionally it'll depend upon the army you're facing. If you consider the MotW against guard it looks amazing while against power armoured opponents, less so. A breakdown done by 1st turn, subsequent turns/failed counter charge, opponent's save etc would tell more than just looking at 1 model with MotW vs a squad without

 

~O

[daemonwolf]

Well the question was which is better: Mark or Power weapon.

 

I took a situation wich favors the power weapon and the Mark still came out better against everythin except against thing with a 2+ armour save.

That and the fact the Mark is usable against tanks makes the Mark better in my book.

 

Yes the mark is more random, but you can still roll nothing but ones when using a power weapon: random is part of the game. For comparasing you take averages.

[Oldenhaller]

averages it is then...

 

Of two rounds of combat on even rolls on 10 vs ten against marines when charged and not charged.

 

Vs marines on the charge with a power weapon

5 attacks of which 3 on below average rolls will hit, of which 2 will be wounded on slightly above average rolls - 2 dead marines

 

Vs marines on the charge with mark of the Wulfen

10 attacks of which 5 will hit, 3 will wound one of which is rending on slightly above average rolls, hard to call the saves as it wouldn't match the average of the rending rolls for both to be saved.

 

So MotW will force more saves but a power weapon will cause more definate unsaved wounds. This example is then the same on averages for recieving the charge as average rolls will mean that they recieve the Countercharge bonus.

 

Against less armoured targets the differences become more apparant however against T4/3+ saves which are a large proportion of the game then a power weapon is slightly above average for the rolls

 

~O

[Lord Ragnarok]

I think you both should be taken unless you have a WG in there with fist (In that case I would drop the mark, unless you wanted more attacks).

[thade]

I think you both should be taken unless you have a WG in there with fist (In that case I would drop the mark, unless you wanted more attacks).

 

Seconded. Regardless of which is better, you can take MotW in addition to the PW. So you get the PW's attacks and the chance to do more armor-ignoring hits with Mark. =)

[DV8]

I think a big part of it too just boils down to your meta-game, and the opponents you regularly face and the kind of army you field. My Grey Hunter setups:

 

9 Grey Hunters

Bolters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino

 

Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Bolter (Combi-Melta if I have the points), Power Fist

 

Always, without fail, they always pull their weight. Sure there are times I have found myself wanting another Power Fist or a Power Weapon, but then more often then not charging in with D6+2 Rending attacks has helped swing combats in my favor, even against Power Armor, simply through sheer number of attacks and the potential to ignore armor.

 

 

DV8

[Sven Bloodskull]

i'm agreeing with daemonwolf. After doing some mathhammer myself (no offense daemonwolf, but i think you portrayed rending wrong. plus, you did not take the random number of attacks intothe equasion), i came to the discovery that daemonwolf is correct. But here is the kicker, the power weapon is better than the mark of wulfen against 2+ armour save when your charging 6 combat turns after each other, while if you instead charge/countercharge the first turn and get stuck in combat for 5 combat turns, the mark of the wulfen comes out on top against the power weapon.

 

And, as daemonwolf said, the MoW can hurt tanks and things with toughness 8+. In fact, against toughness 6+ the MoW does it much better than the Power weapon because they both need to throw the same to wound (a 6!), and when they wound, they both ignore armour, so MoW wins there through sheer number of attacks.

 

So i've decided to stick with MoW. When i do come across termies, ill have vindy's etc to deal with tthat stuff :huh:

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Evilbob]

I love the mark of the wulfen. My group already thinks my army is silly with too many attacks so I love to throw more at them. Its a die roll that everyone watches and when you roll a five or a six for the attacks, they all groan. Its music to my ears.