Gornall Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I'm currently running a Dakka Pred and a Combi-Pred in my army, but I'm finding they cause me to be too static and castle too much as I have to leave support behind to keep them safe from outflankers/deepstrikers. The rest of my army includes fast/aggressive elements, so it ends up splitting the army. How do people overcome that? I'm thinking I might do better with faster elements such as landspeeders/attack bikes (I already use 2 MM/HF Landspeeders). Any ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 With Loyalists, you can almost use your Predators in an unsupported role. Look at it this way, you have a Dakka Predator hiding in cover blasting away. A Termicide squad comes in and fries it. So far the opponent has spent 105 points to kill a 85 model, not bad really. As for other options, SM Fast Attack is awesome as I'm sure you know. Dakka Preds can be replaced by HB Attack Bikes or Speeders and a Combi-Predator can be replaced by the dual Missile Speeder (I forget the name) Dreadnoughts are another option, less overall firepower (2 guns vs 3) but you can move 6" and fire all your weapons and you're less likely to be an easy kill in HtH combat, even without a DCCW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 HB attack bikes are great. Mobile and more survivable than a dakka pred (IMO). Also mentioned is a dreadnought - the 'Rifleman' variant is mobile, shooty, and still reasonable in HtH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Perhaps it is better to use different elements. Before you go and do that, maybe this idea will help. If you are able to still get good LOS on the enemy position/direction he is going to attack, can you set up the Preds on opposite sides from one another. He will not be able to get a good return on his "Chaos Terminators with combi meltas" if his choice targets are a few turns of treaking away from one another. As minigun762 said, it is okay your tanks get blown up. If he diverts forces to take them out that may be of greater benefit to you so you can take the Objectives, etc. DP two MM HF Dreads could be a possibility. Make sure you take a third pod if you want to drop them on T1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I'll be honest, 85 points Dakka Predators are awesome! The only drawback is that they use up a Heavy slot but you can afford 2 of them for about the same point cost as a single Leman Russ or Defiler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Yeah... I may just have to accept that I'll probably lose them to outflankers. My biggest problem has been stuff like Warwalkers as they have such a long range, so even after they outflank, they can keep taking rear-armor shots or waxing combat squads. I'm thinking that I could either drop both and pick up two MM ABs (replacing the AP2 shots) and a Landspeeder Typhoon (keeping some of the 48" range). That or just a squadron of two Typhoons. I think those would fit my playstyle more. However, do you think the survivability will be reduced too much? Also, that would leave me with zero Lascannons, which I think could be bad (Needing to snipe Oblits comes to mind). For reference, my army is here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I'm currently running a Dakka Pred and a Combi-Pred in my army, but I'm finding they cause me to be too static and castle too much as I have to leave support behind to keep them safe from outflankers/deepstrikers. The rest of my army includes fast/aggressive elements, so it ends up splitting the army. How do people overcome that? I'm thinking I might do better with faster elements such as landspeeders/attack bikes (I already use 2 MM/HF Landspeeders). Any ideas? Id say leave a Dreadnaught with them with its own long range weaponry- probly an autocannon, and a heavy flamer. Great deterant, and damn useful itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2176883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I never found much use in predators. The only variant I like and use semi-regularly is the combi-predator. Having one is nice, as I usually have other targets in my army that draw anti-tank fire, so the pred is usually free to sit back and blast away for the entire battle. Though, I find it rarely does much. If it ends up drawing anti-tank fire, all the better. I find that for both anti-tank and anti-infantry, speeders and attack bikes are just better. Also, they can be taken in squadrons, which drastically increases their survivability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2177318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Combi-Predators have a particular niche role in today's meta-game, they excel at busting transports at range and transports are HOT in 5th. They compete with Obliterators (in Chaos armies) and RifleDreads (in Loyalists) as both are geared up to handle this same role, but that doesn't mean you can't have some redundancy. As an aside, they do a fair job of walker/MC and Biker killing as well which is nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2177518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Meh, I find the combipreds just aren't all that good at busting transports, even at range. On the other hand, MM attack bikes and MM/HF speeders seem to be able to do the same thing as they have an effective 36" range + they can reposition each turn. Melta really doesn't need the 2d6 penetration to bust most transports. I just find they do the job better. As for the rifleman dread, I've been considering it, but again it seems so very situational. Unlike the combipred, it can't really do any serious damage to MCs, which are very popular in my local metagame. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2177701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Depends- it wounds Daemon MCs fairly well, and it kills tyranid warriors like nobodies buisness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2177769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Meh, I find the combipreds just aren't all that good at busting transports, even at range. On the other hand, MM attack bikes and MM/HF speeders seem to be able to do the same thing as they have an effective 36" range + they can reposition each turn. Melta really doesn't need the 2d6 penetration to bust most transports. I just find they do the job better. As for the rifleman dread, I've been considering it, but again it seems so very situational. Unlike the combipred, it can't really do any serious damage to MCs, which are very popular in my local metagame. :/ I'm a sucker for math-hammer, so I'll toss out some numbers to consider. (all numbers vs AV11) 2 Multi-Meltas = 1.34 hits @ BS4 = 0.89 glance/penetrating hits @ S8 (outside 12") or 1.29 glances/penetrating hits @ S8 (inside 12"). 2 TL'd Autocannos = 3.56 hits @ BS4 = 1.78 glance/penetrating hits @ S7 2 Lascannons + 1 Autocannon = 1.34/1.34 hits @ BS4 = 0.67 glance/penetrating hits @ S7 + 1.11 glance/penetrating hits @ S9 for a total of 1.78 So really both the Combi-Predator and Rifleman make for better Rhino stoppers especially considering the longer range. Where the MM really excels is at destroying a target within 12" but not everything needs to be destroyed. Sometimes just stunning/immobilizing/knocking out a weapon is enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2177784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 The biggest advantage of the rifleman here is it can walk 6" to get a better LoS and still fire everything. Predators (which I like) can't move and fire to full effect, but AV13 will keep them around longer than the dread. Melta bikes/attack bikes are good, but are highly likely to die after bravely popping a 35point transport... RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2178074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 @minigun762 Your mathhammer doesn't take the vehicle damage table as a factor. Surely, the AP1 of melta, at 24" range, would make a great advantage, seeing as it immobilizes on 3+ and wrecks on 4+. At least it does for me. And then there is Vulkan to consider. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2178326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 @minigun762 Your mathhammer doesn't take the vehicle damage table as a factor. Surely, the AP1 of melta, at 24" range, would make a great advantage, seeing as it immobilizes on 3+ and wrecks on 4+. At least it does for me. And then there is Vulkan to consider. I didn't consider Vulkan, you are correct. With the AP1, it does give an advantage but I find that advantage to be more important when it comes to actually killing the target, not just stopping it or stunning it. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely jealous of fast moving Multi-Meltas, they're awesomely super! But like we discussed in the "Melta Myth" thread, I think long range light anti-tank definately has a use and the Predator can bring that to the table very cheaply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2178602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 With the AP1, it does give an advantage but I find that advantage to be more important when it comes to actually killing the target, not just stopping it or stunning it. Well, wouldn't melta actually be better for stopping the target as well as killing it? Seeing as a melta penetration stuns at 1s, and immobilizes at 3s? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2178874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 With the AP1, it does give an advantage but I find that advantage to be more important when it comes to actually killing the target, not just stopping it or stunning it. Well, wouldn't melta actually be better for stopping the target as well as killing it? Seeing as a melta penetration stuns at 1s, and immobilizes at 3s? Shaken = dont shoot, and stunned with extra armor is shaken.... so the +1 to the damage chart helps, but isnt required to stop non-walkers. Walkers on the other hand tend to be able to assault units that have melta'd them... in fact I cant think of any gun that gets +2d6 and is out of the assault range of a Dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2179384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 With the AP1, it does give an advantage but I find that advantage to be more important when it comes to actually killing the target, not just stopping it or stunning it. Well, wouldn't melta actually be better for stopping the target as well as killing it? Seeing as a melta penetration stuns at 1s, and immobilizes at 3s? Possibly, lets run some numbers (now I'm curious! ;) ). Taking my numbers from above, we have: 2 Multi-Meltas = 0.89 glance/penetrating hits @ S8 (outside 12") or 1.29 glances/penetrating hits @ S8 (inside 12"). 2 TL'd Autocannos =1.78 glance/penetrating hits @ S7 2 Lascannons + 1 Autocannon = 0.67 glance/penetrating hits @ S7 + 1.11 glance/penetrating hits @ S9 for a total of 1.78 So for 2 MM (outside 12") you would have: So for 2 MM (outside 12") you would have: 0.22 glances = 0.074 shakes 0.037 stuns 0.037 immobilizes 0.037 destroyed weapons 0.037 wrecks 0.66 chance to penetrate = 0.11 stuns 0.11 immobilizes 0.11 destroyed weapons 0.11 wrecks 0.22 explodes For 2 MM (inside 12") you would have:0.06 glances = 0.02 shakes 0.01 stuns 0.01 immobilizes 0.01 destroyed weapons 0.01 wrecks 1.23 penetrates = 0.21 stuns 0.20 immobilizes 0.21 destroyed weapons 0.20 wrecks 0.41 explodes With 2 TL'd Autocannons you would have:0.44 glances = 0.22 shakes 0.07 stuns 0.07 immobilizes 0.07 destroyed weapons 1.34 penetrates = 0.22 shakes 0.23 stuns 0.22 immobilizes 0.23 destroyed weapons 0.23 wrecks 0.23 explodes With 2 Lascannons and 1 Autocannon you would have the same as 2 TL'd Autocannons I'm pretty sure, so I'm not going to redo that math (sorry I'm lazy) So Conclusions: 1) Outside of 12" you are more likely to kill a Rhino with TL Autocannons then Multi-Meltas (total wrecks+explodes for both glancing and penetrating = 0.367 for MM and 0.46 for Autocannons. Within 12" the MM have the advantage with 0.62 kills. 2) For stopping transports (stun+immoblize+kills from #1) its 0.661 for MM (outside 12") vs 1.05 for MM (inside 12") vs 1.05 for TL Autocannons These pretty much back up what I was thinking. Outside of 12" a MM has a hard time competing with TL Autocannons because # of shots > AP1. Inside 12", the MM is more reliable at killing the tank and just as good as the TL Autocannons at stopping it, however the Autocannons can do the same job from 4x the effective range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2179455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Interesting. Didn't know the autocannons had such good statistics. My autocannon on my predator just rarely happens to do anything useful, so that sorta put me off autocannons, I guess. Well, guess I just might be getting that rifleman dread sometime soon. Just gotha figure out how to convert those TL autocannons. ;) The only thing that bugs me about the autocannons is that they're so weak against monstrous creatures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2179937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The Predator generally fails because it doesn't operate on the tabletop the way it should by the fluff. The only reason it has a place is because Devastators are so expensive for static firepower, so the Predator does that job instead of its real rolling firepower role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2179944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Interesting. Didn't know the autocannons had such good statistics. My autocannon on my predator just rarely happens to do anything useful, so that sorta put me off autocannons, I guess. Well, guess I just might be getting that rifleman dread sometime soon. Just gotha figure out how to convert those TL autocannons. :P The only thing that bugs me about the autocannons is that they're so weak against monstrous creatures. I've heard good things about using the Aegis Defense Line Autocannons. As for being weak against MCs, its a mixed blessing. You're likely to wound them with S7 and 2 shots but they will typically get a save in thanks to AP4. This is even more of a pain with MCs that have a 2+ save. Of course against Daemons or anything with a significant Inv save and only an Inv save, they work well. Just for poops, I ran the numbers on a typical MC Normal Autocannon vs Daemon Prince (T5 3+/5++) = 0.37 wounds per turn Missile Launcher/Lascannon/Multi-Melta vs Daemon Prince = 0.37 wounds per turn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2180020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Daemon princes are easy to deal with since they're only T5/3+/5++, really. They can reliably die to pretty much anything, including rapid firing bolters. The problem comes when you're up against a tyranid, and he's packing 4-5 T6/7 W4/5 MCs, one of them flying, with 2+ and 3+ saves. That's when autocannons drastically lose their efficiency and those 3 mm attack bike squads start to look all the more compelling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2180059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Of course, against Tyranid Warriors... wich are likely to be emphasised in the new codex.... theyre worth their weight in solid gold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2180887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larendard Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The funny thing about predators is, that because they seem so unappealing today they often simply are ignored by the enemy player ^_^ Assuming that a tank can do no harm because nobody likes it, my opponents kept ignoring my TL-laser/boltersponson preddy til it has killed at least 1-3 rhinos or one time even a dreadnought, 2 rhinos and a 5-man tacsquad of dorn's finest men *giggles* While it may not be really competitive it is always nice to field 1 or 2 "less than optimal" units just to surprise the enemy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2180935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReyRex Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I have been looking into using two Dakka Predators and I have extra armor on them. Is it worth it. It is a SW army at 2500. My dakka are the two Predators and 1 Rifleman dred. I had the extra armor on the Preds, is it worth it or should I move those points somewhere else. Rex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184104-subsitute-for-predators/#findComment-2278057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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