Brother Loring Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Well, I've been looking around a while and posted a couple of very standard paint jobs - good for me, but not encompassing some of the what I would call 'proper' painting techniques that you see. I've been thinking/developing ideas on a sword brethren/command squad for quite a while. They'll be modeled along the lines of the GW sword brethren, but will fill the command squad slot. My GS skills are not up to scratch yet, so I've just used some nice parts to create the beginnings of the squad. I've modeled the first three members of the squad and made a little start. I thought I'd post my progress here and try and get some feedback. Although I'm really wanting to attempt something similar to LunchBox's wash/glazing technique, I don't think it'd be a good idea of making a mess of what I hope to be a bit of a centerpiece. I will later attempt it as well as Stark's salting technique on some bike marines (salting on bikes, wash/glazing of marines). Well anyway, here are the models. I gave them a good scrub and then followed all of the rules with the GW chaos black spray can (which I normally get pretty nice results with), but it came out a bit lumpy -I think the can is nearing the end of its life - I think I will hand undercoat from now-on. Anyway, I started on the cloak - probably not the best place to start, but I really wanted to give the wash/glazing technique (or something similar to it) a go, so I went for it. undercoat 1 coat of merchite red 5 coats of merchite red 10 coats of merchite red 5 further coats of merchite red to raised areas about another 5 of high/low lighting another 5 coats of high/low lighting the 'finished' article Well... It's been difficult to be honest. Surprisingly, it didn't actually take too long but here are some of the problems I faced - any advice on these would be appreciated. i) coverage - this is my fault as I used the black undercoat, not a white one. ii) consistency - I found it difficult to get a good consistency - often my paint was a little too watery and when applied (even in small areas) the pigment ran to the edges and I just got a circle of pigment around the outside of the painted area. iii) lighting - it was difficult to light the paint sufficiently even after 15+ coats so I went to blood red, blazing orange and a little of golden yellow. iv) merging - I found it difficult to merge layers to get a progressive change in colour. I ended up going over everything with a mid tone after every couple of layers of high/lowlights Anyway, thanks for staying this long. Any c&c on my results I would be very appreciative or even on the models/advice for later bits. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterseven Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The final product looks great, you should be proud of them. Getting shading right is the hardest thing to do and I know its something in struggle with, but you make it look easy. I think the final Hi-lights on the raised areas of the cloaks are excellent and they give a great pure red/orange look making them really stand out and they will really break up the black armour of the templar models. I have actually just finished my own attempt on robes rather than the cloaks. I found that using Adeptus Battle Grey as a primer was better than using black. I cant really dispense much painting advice as you are far superior than me but maybe instead of building up with many layers of Mech Red try mixing different quantities of Blood Red to the mix to get a progressivley lighter shade with fewer coats not too thick but not the same consitancy as a wash. But again on the basis of your pictures i dont think you need my advice :) Keep up the good work W7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 i would say its a very good start. if it were me i would look at adding a couple of shading washes, either blue or purple in to the recesses. maybe even add a couple more higlights and then a red glaze to blend it all in and enrich the colour. you dont have to do either as they look very good at the moment but it could be nice to give it a try on a test one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Thank you very much for replies guys! @winter7 - unfortunately I used the black spray as it's what I'd always done and don't quite have the confidence to go with white yet as it'd take a lot of time but more importantly skill to achieve a good black. I hadn't thought about grey but might give that a go. Thank you for your compliments. @stinkenheim - the problem with the cloaks is that there aren't any real recesses, it kinda flows from depths to prominences. I would like to try some extra colours as per LunchBox's tutorial, but one step at a time. The other side of the cloak will be browns/creams. I'm gonna have to think about enriching it somehow as I find bleached bone a bit washed-out. I'll try the blue/purple onto something with similar contours. Thanks again guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I like the use of the commander torso bits, creates unity among the models and shows the wind is blowing one direction :eek . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiodome Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 for #ii, with diluted paints you can get pooling and/or tide marks (the circle of pigment you mention) if there's too much on the brush, which is easy to do when watered down as the bristles soak up more paint. also easy to fix, after loading your brush, lightly touch it to some tissue paper or a towel to drain of excess and carry on painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedon Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 These look great ... a quick question though, you said you didn't use the glazing technique on these ones ... so how thinned out did you make the paints? It would help me to have a starting point for my own tests as I was about to try something very similar B) Thanks in advance and can't wait to see the finished product. - Dunedon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Thanks for more comments guys - @Commander Alexander - Yeah, I thought 5 cloaks all billowing in the same direction would look a bit silly. I hacked bits off of 4 of them so none are identical but it's obvious they are still all the same. It saved me from making an ass of myself and ruining the squad making cloaks from GS (badly). @Shiodome - Thanks. I thought that'd be the case. I think I'm just rushing them a bit. Maybe a bit more patience and waiting for the colour to develop with extremely small quantities of paint and lots of layers as per tutorial. I guess that's why I should be starting with a white base. @Dunedon - I'm attempting to use the glazing technique, but as I didn't have the confidence to go from white and develop the colour, and I had also sprayed them black it's not totally adherent to the tutorial (which uses white). I use citadel colours and dilute them roughly 1 part paint to 5 parts water - but this is a very rough guestimate. I'm just staring with the technique, but I'm sure the base coates could be a bit thicker, say 1:3 as its on black, but somebody more experienced would have a better opinion on this. Thanks again guys, I'm doing the torsos/tabards today/tomorrow, will hopefully have an update then. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sword brethren Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 a good idea would have been to use chaos warriors capes if you didnt want them the same, but your ones do look go none the less :) i love the shading on them, i hope you can put that skill to work for the rest, good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 i) coverage - this is my fault as I used the black undercoat, not a white one. its not the undercoat that changes the ability to do it, its the colour, itd be just as dark to paint your red over a dark blue or green primer also that being said, this technique isnt built for fast basecoats(in the way you've used it) if you need to go heavier on basecoats theres nothing wrong with that, so normal smooth consistency to get the basecoat on quicker ii) consistency - I found it difficult to get a good consistency - often my paint was a little too watery and when applied (even in small areas) the pigment ran to the edges and I just got a circle of pigment around the outside of the painted area. its not that your paint is too thin or not, its the fact you forgot to touch a towel to remove the excess water from your brush....you dont want watery paint(only for basecoating over white so you have more time to spread around evenly) you want a damp/moist brush....if you have a wet brush it will run all over the place that being said you dont thin as much for highlights, otherwise they will run all over the place as well......stains are from pools of colour dryng...so just dont let pools of colour dry.....HOWEVER whats worse that a stain is a tear, thats when you take too long to apply your layer and it semi dries, and you brush over it and pull up part of the paint....so be quick about it, if you screw up and arent quick, just LET IT DRY, and fix it after iii) lighting - it was difficult to light the paint sufficiently even after 15+ coats so I went to blood red, blazing orange and a little of golden yellow. 15 coats isnt much for smooth blending, you can hit over 100 layers if you want...for faster blending dont thin quite as much and devise other tehcniques like wiping away the edges with a damp brush, or feathering edges...it wont be super smooth but its faster...and again for highlighting you can go a bit heavier iv) merging - I found it difficult to merge layers to get a progressive change in colour. I ended up going over everything with a mid tone after every couple of layers of high/lowlights to blend transition joints, you need to avoid making them in the first place....they are made by successive strokes in the same direction...so lets say everytime you paint on a layer its north to south....it will create lines....but if you alternate northeast to southwest ad northwest to southeast...you create an "x" or cross hatch, and you will cancel out your transition lines the next part is the difficult one....to blend smoothly you need to trust in your inability to see it(oddly enough)....you will only see contrast once you start getting your brighter highlights or darker shadows on...and you MUST NOT RUSH to get darker or brighter...thats the first mistake for people when learning to blend, they dont see change they get impatient and they darken or brighten too much...brightening too much isnt as big a problem as darkening too much, because its fixable where as going too dark is not As for your actual model, its a fantastic start, the key to knowing you have the right "glazing" consistency(except when using P3) is that it dries very matte...yours look matte....now for the placement of light...try to remember an object is more than just edges and recesses... the problem with GW is how they sculpt their cape sometimes....they make it impossible to create a nice lighting and flow to it because of their stylistic choice of design....you can exxagerrate the lack of shape by creating it with your placement of light...for the one on the right, you simply need to bring more light and even it out as it is near the edge instead of a fast jump to a sharp highlight, a smoother transition and slower one to the edge would create a different "shape" and less sharp :) Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 Well what can I say Starks, thank you! You are an extremely nice and generous fellow as well as an awesome painter. I will try and adapt them into my painting. I'm not too worried about time, but I think my problem is I like to see progress. On point 2 about thickness of paint and quantity on brush...Today I've been painting a few layers of graveyard earth. The paint is diluted about 1:5 and then I lightly press the tip onto some tissue paper. I hold it until the water/pigment pool does not increase further. When I go to paint it, I really cannot see a great deal of pigment transferring onto the model. I have tended to leave a bit of water (with pigment) on the brush, which shows me I'm putting some paint on the model, but then it justs runs into cracks (I know I'm doing wrong and just 'washing' not 'glazing') <_< . Should it be that dry that I really don't notice anything, I just feel a bit like I'm dry brushing a bit, but without the more vigorous strokes (I think this goes back to point 1, where I said about base coat - on the white version in the tutorial, I can see the changes in colour with each layer, something I do not see on mine with a black base coat). Anyway, thanks lots, I really like point 4 and it will be extremely useful with the tabards I'm currently painting. Also, a little update. I placed 5 layers of scorched brown over the tabard, the metal and the skulls. The tabard and skulls then got 5 coats of graveyard earth and the metal got 5 coats of tin bitz. After 2 coats of scorched brown After 5 coats of scorched brown After 5 coats of graveyard earth/tinbitz I know it's not much. I'm going to start adding some gold (+another colour I'm not sure of yet) onto the metal and going to start darkening the recesses of the tabard a little. Unless this is the wrong way to go about things??? Thanks for reading, c&c much appreciated as usual! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teku Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Looking great! Thanks for the inspiration <_< I like the way you show the evolution of the layers. Keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 So, just a little update, done a little bit of work on the gold plating. I think it has come out quite a nice gold. Any thoughts. one coat of shining gold about 5 coats of shining gold and one coat of mithril silver a coat of blood red, one of mordian blue and then a few more of burnished gold. After one coat of red/blue it started to look quite dusky, so wasn't really sure to continue??? I don't think has done a great deal but.....???? a few layers of devlan wash, another coat of blue, a coat of mithril silver, a couple of shining gold and a final layer of devlan wash i.e. the finished product. Like I said, not really sure what the extra colours added, but I really like the final result. It looks quite a bit richer than how my gold usually turns out so perhaps it did?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 the paint issue may be because you are removing too much from the brush, just touch the side of the belly of the brush against the edge of the towel, it will absord the water and leave moisture and pigment Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks starks. Touching the brush on the belly rather than the tip has helped quite a bit. I thought by touching the tip would draw the water throught the brush and hopefully bring some pigment with it, but obviously I was wrong. I've spent quite a bit of time on the tabard and a bit of time on the red trim. The brown was a little more tricky, there seems to be less pigment in the paint, so the paints were thinned a bit less. I used relatively undilute paint for the most extreme highlights, but tried to stick to starks' earlier tips on altering direction of laying paint down and trying to avoid obvious transitions. I was quite tricky due to the shapes and groves but I'm pretty pleased with it so far. Here are a couple of images with differing lighting. I like the transition on the two folds on the right (model's left) of the bottom of the tabard. The one on the right still shows some more obvious signs of lighting. Here's a picture of an older attempt at a tabard. I think there has been an improvement. The older example is a bit darker, but I don't think the transition is as smooth and looks a bit chalky. What do you all think??? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 I have been a little bit bored at work today so decided to do a bit of painting. I think I've finished the tabard now unless there are major problems that I have not spotted. I thought I'd finished the red bits, but the photo shows a really obvious transition to orange that I'll have to sort out. I've done the majority of the shoulder pads (not including the highlighting of the black - which will be done last - and some free hand) and also made a little start on his combat shield. Sorry about the last pic, the one against a neutral background didn't come out too well. Any opinions/comments/criticisms??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Just a small update if anybody is interested! Did a little bit of work on the combat shield. Need to tidy up a little bit, but not sure what colour the bulk of it should be. Was thinking of gold, but thinking that may be a bit too 'bling' Anyway, here is my effort so far. Was my first attempt at some free-handing. Not too imaginative, but oh well! comments/criticisms would be grateful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 I sort of killed this post as I had to replies after 3 updates, but wanted to post the result. I kinda got a bit fed-up with this model, but it has taught me quite a few things about painting - thanks guys (particularly Starks)! Anyway, bit of a rushed finish, here he is. Don't worry, I won't bother you with the results from the other guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkKnightCuron Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I actually rather like what youve done with these chaps. Very cool cloaks, I might add! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Corveus Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Yo're a really good painter! Great work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver3x Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 As I have said before, don't get too down about the lack of response. Your saga here has really inspired me to up my painting game. I think tehy look great. Its really nice to see models evolve like this. I would love to see more ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 No don't worry, it wasn't that, it was really great to the advice that I did, but I thought I'd try and do a bit more done before updating, rather than lots of small updates. Thanks very much though Guyver3x! I actually rather like what youve done with these chaps. Very cool cloaks, I might add! Thanks very much DKC, I hope what I've done and the advice others gave helps. It certainly helped me to break things down, rather than just going at it 'willy nilly'. Yo're a really good painter! Great work! Thanks very much, that's a very nice comment! There are FAR, FAR better around, but I would like to think I'm improving! Your saga here has really inspired me to up my painting game. I think tehy look great. Its really nice to see models evolve like this. I would love to see more :tu: Once again, thanks! It's nice to know people are watching! The advice posted by others in this thread is really useful and has definitely helped. Perhaps I'll post the whole squad when they're done (which will probably be a long time). I've just glued an apothecary and a banner bearer together and together with the actual sword brethren models, should make a nice command squad! Thanks very much again guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onipunk Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Very nice, excellent painting, and the gold looks excellent, and the reds are nice and rich. Nice posing on the models too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallvictory Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Just found this thread for the first time, I think the model looks fantastic. I found the early photos very helpfull and Starks comments were great. Thanks for the thread and make sure to resurect it with more pics regardless to how long it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 I've got the next three brethren to be added to the squad, but I've also picked-up the (beautiful) metal sword brethren. I want them to be a bit different, and hopefully a bit nicer. As I'm a little bored of the standard highlighting black through to grey, I thought I'd give something else a try. It's kinda influenced by something Lunchbox advised a little while ago, but not quite. He suggested a non-black black. Anyway, I wanted to make it look a bit like some bonzish armour had been painted black. Unfortunately it's turned-out a bit more purple than brown/bronze but I quite like it. I do have 2 concerns though... 1) Does the colour take away from the blackness of the Black Templar 2) Does the purpley colour contrast (in a bad way) with the red shoulder pad - this is the mark of the sword brethren so can't really change. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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