Rebel loyalists

[LordSion]

we know that in the traitor legions there were some that stayed loyal to the emperor, but did the opposite happen as well?

 

in the loyalist legions were there those whose respect for the warmaster led them to desert their legions and rebel against the rule of terra?

[Starblayde]

we know that in the traitor legions there were some that stayed loyal to the emperor, but did the opposite happen as well?

 

in the loyalist legions were there those whose respect for the warmaster led them to desert their legions and rebel against the rule of terra?

It happened at the very moment that the traitors made their drop on the Emperor's Palace. I recall a sentence along the lines of 'they turned on their brothers and cut them down like dogs'. It may have bee a pre-arranged signal, they may have been turned by Daemon whisperings at the moment or simply been driven mad - but it certainly happened amongst the defenders in the Siege of Terra.

[Legatus]

I have doubts. Where was that described?

[Starblayde]

I have doubts. Where was that described?

The Battle for Earth by Bill (now generally called William) King, WD161. Admittedly it only mentions 'defenders', not naming whether they were Astartes, Guardsmen, or what.

[Legatus]

Could this be it? I found it online so I cannot confirm that it is 100% acurate. It specifically refers to the Imperial Army though.

 

Perhaps some defenders went mad with fear. Perhaps the corruption of Chaos ran deeper than anyone suspected. Perhaps some were foolish enough to think that they could negotiate with the ultimate enemy. Whatever the reason one last vile treachery was to take place. Many units of the Imperial army that had pledged loyalty to the Emperor turned blasphemer even as the Traitor Space Marines made their drop. It was almost as if it were a pre-arranged signal. In one of the basest acts of betrayal in humanity's history they turned their weapons on their brother warriors and cut them down like dogs. Thus did the Lions Gate Space Port fall to the rebels. As the heretics chanted and howled their mad prayers, the air shimmered and slavering daemons emerged from the warp to spread terror and dismay.

[Ufthak]

Yes, the same text is in the Collected Visions. The way I see it, it refers to Army only.

 

But, within the loyalist Legions there were traitors, of course - the Fallen Dark Angels. Though, admittedly, they didn't directly join Horus, or Chaos, for that matter.

[Starblayde]

Yeah, that's the paragraph I was referring to. If, amongst thousands of Astartes of the legions that turned traitor there were a few thousand who didn't like what Horus was doing, then surely amongst the loyalist Astartes there'd be some who agreed with Horus' ranting. They, however, weren't on Davin, or any of the other places where the taint started to appear and Heresy became the 'correct' point of view. Untainted by chaos, unaffected by Laer temples or whisperings in the warp, the loyalist legions would have had a much, much smaller percentage of dissidents than the traitors did.

[Legatus]

Legionaires from the Traitor Legions staying loyxal makes logical sense, Legionaires from the loyalist Legion sless so.

 

When Horus truned against the Emperor that was a drastic change in the Legions allegiance, and the Marines of the traitor Legions were aware of that decision and now had to decide whether to follow their primarch or whether to stay loyal to the Emperor.

 

Among the loyalist Marines there was never that decision to decide between their Primarch or the Emperor. Also, I doubt that there was a lot of communication between members of the Legions, when it happened that usually in terms of formalities, but not a lot of private conversations. I find it unlikely that the members of one particular Legion feel more sympathies to the Primarch of a different Legion.

 

So there was incentive and a lot of consideration involved on the side of the members of the traitor Legions whether to turn or to stay loyal. There was not really any such incentive or consideration present for any of the loyalist Legions, except for the specific case of the Fallen Angels, who had their distinct own reasons which was not really related to the heresy.

[Starblayde]

That is true, in that the Loyalists wouldn't have needed to move from their ideological stance to keep on with the Emperor. The spark of an idea that turned Horus and his followers to Chaos, though, was that the Emperor had left them to conquer the galaxy on their own and was allowing it, in turn, to be ruled by pointless, honourless bureaucrats and politicians.

 

That would strike a chord with most Astartes, surely? Yes, the disaffected Primarchs, faced with the withdrawal of their Father, would spread the seed of Horus' dissent, but surely those sorts of thoughts could not only have occured to Horus/Lorgar/etc. All of the Primarchs were disappointed with the Emperor retreating to Terra, even the most-loyal like Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

I would find it very hard to believe that every single one of the UMs, BAs, SWs, IFs, IHs, RGs, WSs, etc, would have been 100% behind the Emperor, as there must surely have been some, through inter-legion links, who would have thought 'But what if Horus is right?'. Those thoughts may have been obliterated and replaced with 'Foul traitors!' once the shooting started, but it must have been circling throughout some of the Loyalist legions in the run-up to the Heresy.

[TheDarker]

You have to consider that in the Traitor Legions, his Primarch was there to say "Horus is right!" and when you began to think if the Emperor betrayed you, i´m pretty sure having your Primarch telling you that it´s true help a lot of them. Also, i´m sure lot of the Traitors were not exactly following Horus, but his own Primarch. Had the Primarc tell "Horus is mad", they surely would have believed it" Had say otherwise, they would have thinked other way (I´m pretty sure if Fulgrim had overcomed the "voice in his head" and attacked Horus, all of this Legion would have followed it).

 

Also, the ideas of the Traitors reach a lot of places, yeah, but i doubt there was a Facebook group telling "I rebelled against the Emperor, wanna join?" when they post his ideas and motives. I´m sure Loyal legions only know that "Horus rebelled against the Emperor, and they sayd what???". They had also their Primarch with them saying "he is mad", and even if they have a little spark of doubt, being attacked by surprise (Ultramarines) or assaulted by Daemons (battle of Terra) i´m pretty sure decided them that Horus was not being very sincere with his intentions....

[Starblayde]

Also, the ideas of the Traitors reach a lot of places, yeah, but i doubt there was a Facebook group telling "I rebelled against the Emperor, wanna join?" when they post his ideas and motives. I´m sure Loyal legions only know that "Horus rebelled against the Emperor, and they sayd what???"

I mean before the rebellion itself, as we see Loken, Tarvitz, Garro, etc slowly finding themselves in opposition to their own Legion's changing ideas of what it means to be an Astartes fighting the enemies of mankind. Those with the mindset of Abaddon, Khârn, Erebus, etc, who's ideas were spread by the warrior lodges, surely can't just be in the Legions that ended up turning traitor, as human - and Astartes - nature just isn't like that.

 

Besides, they used Myspace, because that was still cool about 10,000 years ago.

[Pacific81]

I agree with Legatus sentiment that you can imagine it happening, but not on the same scale as the traitors having to purge loyalists from their ranks, for the simply reason that Horus's actions were a revolution in terms of what was the accepted understanding of the Imperium.

 

Remember the revisionist structures of History. In the same way that we don't hear the negative side or failures of the victors in our own history, you can certainly imagine the loyalist legions 'sweeping under the carpet' any examples of their own internal politics.

 

Several things support this, such as the size of the Legions - even though they had a rigid military hierarchy, remember that many of them were spread throughout the galaxy as part of various expeditions. Had all the members of the legions been in a single fleet with their primarch any kind of dissent, or perhaps 'value judgement' made by individual commanders would have been less likely. Imagine a Blood Angel commander, persecuting an alien foe on one remote part of the Crusade. This particular commander spent a significant part of the Crusade fighting alongside the World Eaters, and formed special and close bonds with some of their officers over time (this is a notable part of the two legions background). How might he respond upon hearing that a WE commander who he regarded as a close friend was subject to a savage attack by members of the Space Wolves? Consider the situation where the Blood Angel Commander is unable to obtain any other news or information on what is happening? The commander would have been forced to make a judgement call, and in my opinion it would be easy for the Blood Angel to back the side of the traitors.

 

You can easily picture a thousand other similar examples taking place throughout the galaxy - Battle for the Abyss, as much as it seems to be maligned, gives us an example of marines from different legions (and ones ultimately opposed to each other) brought together by circumstance. The heresy was the most base of civil wars, of brothers fighting brothers, and its my guess that we will see things from the other side as well later on in the series.

 

Of course we could also say that Marines might want to side with Horus, rather than just finding themselves victims of circumstance. Read the opening speech by Horus in the 2nd Collected Visions book, regarding the Emperor betraying the martial honour of the Astartes - its stirring stuff, and you can see why some of the Legions sided with him if they thought it to be true. Of course, much depends on whether the HH series writers go with the alternative Worldview of Horus, as a genuine alternative to the plans of the Emperor (perhaps influenced by Milton's 'better to reign in hell than serve in heaven'), or the much more uninspired 'a wizard (chaos) did it' as an explanation for why the Heresy actually takes place.