Importance of AV14

[Jethsye]

I'm currently planning a new SM Mech Army, for 1500 and 1750 points level and have hit the large dilemna; do I put a Land Raider Varient into my list or not? A Land Raider is a valuable investment in a list running at a 1/3 of a list with occupants (Hammernators and such) but is nigh impentrable when looked after. Do people feel that having a Land Raider in a list a better choice than having two extra Rhino borne squads in a list.

[minigun762]

I don't think so and my rule of thumb is if you're going to use a Land Raider, you should be using 2 of them.

 

If you leave the Land Raider at home, you need to stock up one Dreads, Predators, Vindicators, Rhinos etc to spread out the AT firepower.

[Grey Mage]

IF you have a large number of rhinos, speeders, or dreads than the inclusion of a standard landraider- with its flexable range and decent transport capabilities- will Greatly increase their survivability simply by its inclusion- your opponent will have to, and in most cases, want to deal with it, and probly quickly. Well, Landraiders dont get taken out quickly in most cases, so theyll absorb firepower with high strength values and low APs that would normally shred through your AV 10/11/12 stuff.

[Giga]

Like Grey Mage said, a LR draws anti-tank fire that would've otherwise destroyed your rhinos. This, on its own, is a great asset.

 

That being said, if you're planning on using hammernators, or an expensive squad of vanguard, or honor guard, or close combat HQs and the like, you really need a land raider. It's assault vehicle ability is invaluable, as well as is its capability to ignore most damage.

 

Driving an expensive HQ and a bunch of close combat command squad in a rhino just doesn't cut it.

 

My 2 cents.

[Race Bannon]

The alternative, of course, is with those points you could buy at least one other expensive unit that could "do" more, or buy at least 3-4 other cheap units, thus providing more targets than the opponent can handle.

 

BUT, I agree with Giga, if you have an expensive unit, then a LR is the better buy.

 

My personal rule is never ... ever ... use a LR unless it's 2K points.

[waaanial00]

The only reason I find for including a landraider is transporting the contents of it.

 

Usually AV14 doesnt attract a lot of anti armour that my Rhinos catch because most people I play long ago realised that shooting a missile at that Rhino is better than at the Raider. It usually sucks in melta weaponry like a vaccuum cleaner though so its great to pull your opponent in a direction you want them to.

 

Usually though I find its not the best investment. I have 2 gathering a large amount of dust at present. I cant imagine when I am going to be using them in the future.

 

Wan

 

EDIT: Spelling

[Titan87]

I personally think there a is one factor more important than any other when looking at taking a land raider. Transport.

 

The important part of the LR (to me) is in order

1.its transport ability

2. its assault ramp

3. AV14

4. its weapons

 

Basically if you don't need it to transport something don't bother. Its jobs can be better done for cheaper points elsewhere (aka predator, vindi) However if your going to lean toward an elite based (terminators, expensive infantry) than there is nothing better than a Land Raider.

 

 

Final advice:

Are you using Assault Terminiators? (This demands a Land Raider for transport. Period.)

[Starblayde]

I personally think there a is one factor more important than any other when looking at taking a land raider. Transport.

 

The important part of the LR (to me) is in order

1.its transport ability

2. its assault ramp

3. AV14

4. its weapons

 

Basically if you don't need it to transport something don't bother. Its jobs can be better done for cheaper points elsewhere (aka predator, vindi) However if your going to lean toward an elite based (terminators, expensive infantry) than there is nothing better than a Land Raider.

 

 

Final advice:

Are you using Assault Terminiators? (This demands a Land Raider for transport. Period.)

Or to change it up every so often, Teleport the Terminators - that you would usually transport in the LR - onto the battlefield and use the LR as a bullet magnet diversion, leaving everything else very unscathed and very dangerous. Doesn't always work, but if they don't know what's in the LR and your Termies aren't on the table... :huh:

[silversmith82]

As someone said before, either use at least 2 or none. In DH armies I've ran before and the one I'm planning, I'll be using 2 Crusaders.

[Shiodome]

Or to change it up every so often, Teleport the Terminators - that you would usually transport in the LR - onto the battlefield and use the LR as a bullet magnet diversion, leaving everything else very unscathed and very dangerous. Doesn't always work, but if they don't know what's in the LR and your Termies aren't on the table... :huh:

 

 

... then your opponent will know at the very least your termies aren't in the LR. because you declared them as being in reserve and deepstriking. unless you cheat that is.

[Starblayde]

Or to change it up every so often, Teleport the Terminators - that you would usually transport in the LR - onto the battlefield and use the LR as a bullet magnet diversion, leaving everything else very unscathed and very dangerous. Doesn't always work, but if they don't know what's in the LR and your Termies aren't on the table... ;)

... then your opponent will know at the very least your termies aren't in the LR. because you declared them as being in reserve and deepstriking. unless you cheat that is.

Oh, repeatedly and often. <_< Well it's still a great escort for lighter tanks, as it draws inordinate amounts of fire that would cut through the paper thin armor of Rhino variants very quickly.

[minigun762]

IF you have a large number of rhinos, speeders, or dreads than the inclusion of a standard landraider- with its flexable range and decent transport capabilities- will Greatly increase their survivability simply by its inclusion- your opponent will have to, and in most cases, want to deal with it, and probly quickly. Well, Landraiders dont get taken out quickly in most cases, so theyll absorb firepower with high strength values and low APs that would normally shred through your AV 10/11/12 stuff.

 

I believe that a Land Raider will help out the rest of your armor by adding it in, but I don't think its nearly the same as simply adding in more armor.

The reason is that most SM/CSM armor is fairly light, AV11-13 being the most common. This means that weapons like Autocannons and Missile Launchers are usually sufficient to destroy these targets, however neither of these weapons is viable against a Land Raider and even the Lascannon is a long shot.

To kill a Land Raider reliably, you have to hit it with Melta or some other weapons that gets +2d6 penetration (ChainFist, MC etc).

These same weapons can be used on lighter armor as well but they tend to be overkill and usually short range. To kill a Rhino with a Meltagun after its already made it half way across the board is at best a nuisance and at worst useless.

 

 

So for my money, I think mech armies should be built one of two ways.

1) Light mech = Rhinos/Razorbacks/Speeders/Dreads/Predators/Defilers etc

2) Heavy mech = Land Raiders and whatever else you can fit in

[Grey Mage]

Your telling me people dont shoot lascannons at your landraider? Or Railcannons?

[Gornall]

I think he's saying that everything S6-8 goes into Landspeeders/Rhinos while Lascannons, Railguns, and Meltas all go into the Landraiders. There is some overlap, but for the most part, I think the two AVs draw different types of firepower, so a LR only draws a portion of fire that would otherwise go into lighter stuff.

 

I keep seeing this "If you're taking one, take two.", but if you fill them both with assault elements, you're looking at up to half of your army in a 2000 point game. What's the best way to effectively use two Landraiders?

[Grey Mage]

One as your option for a Crusader/redeemer by using magnets, and your other as a Phobos.

 

And then leaving one at home.

[minigun762]

I think he's saying that everything S6-8 goes into Landspeeders/Rhinos while Lascannons, Railguns, and Meltas all go into the Landraiders. There is some overlap, but for the most part, I think the two AVs draw different types of firepower, so a LR only draws a portion of fire that would otherwise go into lighter stuff.

Exactly, thanks for the clarification Gornall.

 

I keep seeing this "If you're taking one, take two.", but if you fill them both with assault elements, you're looking at up to half of your army in a 2000 point game. What's the best way to effectively use two Landraiders?

 

Both don't have to be filled with assault elements, or atleast not expensive ones.

Consider the typically 5-8 Assault Terminators in a LRR/LRC, fairly standard and quite powerful.

Now as backup, take a standard LR and put unit of Scouts inside it. A significantly cheaper unit and this time you have the advantage of being scoring. Scouts can be used to protect the Land Raider or just camp inside and claim an objective as you blast away with the Lascannons and Heavy Bolter.

[Giga]

I don't subscribe to the "if you take one LR, take two" teaching.

 

I think LRs need a powerful close combat unit (or a big hefty unit of sternguard) to make them worth the massive points investment. Either case, having two of these powerful units + two LRs means you're effectively tying ~1000 points into two tanks and two units. Now imagine how much effective anti-tank and anti-infantry most armies can fit into 1000 points. That's right - more then enough to deal with two LRs and whatever you got in them.

 

On the other hand, there are other marine vehicles that work very very well in pairs or even 3s. Speeder squadrons, predators, vindicators, dreadnoughts etc. and all of them are quite reasonably priced for what they do (except the ven dread, I think that thing should at the very least come with extra armor).

[Deathwing]

I dunno if people really do fit enough anti-armour and anti-infantry into 1000 points to beat 2 raiders and 2 terminator squads in them. Even at the 1850+ level that I usually play at I don't see a gross amount of anti-AV14 (unless it is tailored to beat my list).

 

I've had a lot of success with two Deathwing squads riding inside two land raiders. Quite often those 4 units are enough to handle most of my opponents entire army (used carefully of course so they only engage in favourable engagements). Sometimes I put combat tac squads in the land raiders and deep strike the terminators so there would be four hard targets to deal with (with wound allocation abuse my Deathwing squads are quite resilient to mass fire even from AP2 weapons).

Now mind you I usually play against people who have all-comers lists and if I were to face a dedicated anti-LR/anti-terminator list I'd probably get my butt handed to me.

 

When I used a single raider it tended to attract all the S9+ weapons and even then could still roll through most of it (considering average dice rolls and all). This pretty much left my other heavy armour (preds and vindicators) alone to exert their will on my opponent. The lighter armour still ate all the S8 and lower weapons though.

One thing you can almost count on is that if you have a LR with something scary inside and then a vindicator and a pred, your opponent will almost always try to down or immobilize the raider, then the vindicator, then the predator. With this knowledge you can almost predict what your opponent will do and quite possibly when he will do it. Some other things to consider.

[minigun762]

I dunno if people really do fit enough anti-armour and anti-infantry into 1000 points to beat 2 raiders and 2 terminator squads in them. Even at the 1850+ level that I usually play at I don't see a gross amount of anti-AV14 (unless it is tailored to beat my list).

 

Thats why alot of people (myself included) always bring an overkill of anti-tank, usually in the form of Meltaguns.

 

The reason is simple, if you don't and the opponent drops down a pair of Land Raiders, you can't hurt them and it becomes an auto-lose setup. So to stop that from happening, you see alot of armies with dedicated anti-Raider Rush units.

Chaos Termicide, Eldar Fire Dragons/Falcons, IG Melta Vets/Vendettas and Loyalist Melta Dreads/Pods are example units that are there purely to avoid being spanked by Land Raiders.

 

But this is just my experience, that very few people will rely on long range anti-tank to deal with Land Raiders (or any AV14) these days.

[Grey Mage]

See- and Im one of those oddballs. Unless your playing BT I dont see any excuse for ANY marine army to go into battle without a Lascannon. Or 4.

 

I also belive that if I NEED to kill/stop AV 14, then by the gods Ill throw missile launchers and 11" meltaguns at it, because they CAN hurt it. It isnt likely, but the more dice I roll, the better my chances. Wont be my first picks, but I wont ignore them because the chance is low.

[Captain Idaho]

See- and Im one of those oddballs. Unless your playing BT I dont see any excuse for ANY marine army to go into battle without a Lascannon. Or 4.

 

I also belive that if I NEED to kill/stop AV 14, then by the gods Ill throw missile launchers and 11" meltaguns at it, because they CAN hurt it. It isnt likely, but the more dice I roll, the better my chances. Wont be my first picks, but I wont ignore them because the chance is low.

 

I agree, I always take 4 Lascannons in my lists as it grants me long range anti-tank capacity. Sure you don't stand as good a chance at breaking AV14 with it as you do with a close range melta blast, but apart from Demolisher cannon and the one-shot orbital bombardment, it's your best bet at weakening/destroying a Landraider at over 12" away.

 

Besides, I also pack melta weapons in my lists, so I can do both methods of anti-tank :)

 

I have recently been using a Landraider as an uber unit transport and am enjoying it's potency. It does die all too often though, but I plan my game around the assumption it will die, thereby it's loss is not going to lose me the game.

 

A Landraider can fit into a mechanised list nicely and attracts so much attention your opponents focus is generally skewed, which is an advantage in itself. However I would say using a Landraider is not essential for Marines Mechanised lists, provided you use at least some of those points saved by not taking one on additional armoured units.

[Giga]

I dunno if people really do fit enough anti-armour and anti-infantry into 1000 points to beat 2 raiders and 2 terminator squads in them. Even at the 1850+ level that I usually play at I don't see a gross amount of anti-AV14 (unless it is tailored to beat my list).

Look at it this way;

 

3 mm attack bikes and 3 mm/hf speeders cost a grand total of 360 pts. They can steamroll your landraiders faster then you can read this sentence - especially if Vulkan is involved. Many other armies have access to dual (or even quadruple) meltaguns in their squads, as well as ample assault cannons, flying monstrous creatures, str 10 ordnance, and the like. Killing land raiders is nowhere near as hard as most people on the internet think.

 

As for the anti-terminator, basically any infantry that can lay a lot of close combat attacks or simply a lot of rapid fire shots will have a good chance to kill those terminators. Sheer weight of fire will cause you to fail saves.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying dual LRs aren't a viable tactic. Obviously, many people have success with it. I just find that, for my own tastes and in my local metagame, dual LRs just don't cut it. Especially if you put terminators into both. The point investment is just too large.

[Deathwing]

Look at it this way;

 

3 mm attack bikes and 3 mm/hf speeders cost a grand total of 360 pts. They can steamroll your landraiders faster then you can read this sentence - especially if Vulkan is involved. Many other armies have access to dual (or even quadruple) meltaguns in their squads, as well as ample assault cannons, flying monstrous creatures, str 10 ordnance, and the like. Killing land raiders is nowhere near as hard as most people on the internet think.

 

My experiences have been quite the opposite. S10 ordnance isn't that reliable as when you do penetrate you still have to roll 5+ (I've had my demolisher shells bounce off of land raiders several times in the same game) and flying monstrous creatures still need to roll 7+ to glance or pen (providing they are at least S7 and most flying MCs are S6). My raiders have survived khorne daemon princes, hive tyrants other flying MCs really well. Even melta weapons still need to roll 6+ to glance/pen then a 4+ to actually destroy the thing. And that's if the things actually hit (our group has really bad luck with melta weapons)

One thing I do find that is quite reliable at taking down raiders are carnifexes if they get close enough.

 

As for the anti-terminator, basically any infantry that can lay a lot of close combat attacks or simply a lot of rapid fire shots will have a good chance to kill those terminators. Sheer weight of fire will cause you to fail saves.

 

True, but if all those failed saves are on one or two models the majority of my squad still sticks around. Normal loyalist terminators can't abuse wound allocation though so yeah they would suffer more from mass of fire than say a properly kitted chaos terminator squad, deathwing squad or wolfguard squad.

 

I'm not saying dual LRs aren't a viable tactic. Obviously, many people have success with it. I just find that, for my own tastes and in my local metagame, dual LRs just don't cut it. Especially if you put terminators into both. The point investment is just too large.

 

I guess the meta game decides what to plan for. My local meta at the moment is footslogging or horde-ish. Few people have gone mechanized (heavy or light) and a lot of the local marine players subscribe to your philosophy of raiders being too expensive (so few people bring the necessary anti-tank to deal with it as no one uses raiders or only uses them once in a blue moon).

 

Still, even against 3 MM ABs and 3 MM/HF speeders (with or without Vulkan), I think careful placement and engagement can deliver the squads inside to where they need to go. Though I'd have no idea what to do if I encountered that plus podding MM dreads and podding sternguard with combi-meltas.

Mind you, having the old smoke launchers and machine spirit help immensely in making sure those raiders get to deliver their cargo with reasonable reliability.

[Giga]

I guess the meta game decides what to plan for. My local meta at the moment is footslogging or horde-ish. Few people have gone mechanized (heavy or light) and a lot of the local marine players subscribe to your philosophy of raiders being too expensive (so few people bring the necessary anti-tank to deal with it as no one uses raiders or only uses them once in a blue moon).

If your meta is based around little or no mechanization, then I would agree that having dual LRs is a huge asset. With none or few transports and other quick mm platforms (speeders) in an opponent's army, chances are they literally have no real ability to deal with LRs (short of being tremendously lucky with their lascannons). Footslogging meltaguns are very easy to deal with. You can literally remain 20" from them, move 12" towards them, disembark 2", and assault 6", never once coming within their melta range, let alone the 2d6 penetration melta range.

 

In my local metagame, there are PLENTY of mechanized meltas and the like, so relying on multiple LRs isn't such a great idea. I usually have one LR, and that is simply because there is no better platform for lascannons and no better way to transport assault units.

[Cadarn]

My own 2 cents:

 

Land Raiders are bulky enough that they can do more than distract your opponent from your Rhinos. The sheer size of the Raider is that it can block LOS to them entirely. Think of the favoured SM tactics (fluff wise) and they love a speartip attack. I've had success in the past by sending my Raider straight down the line with two Rhinos tucked in behind. If the Raider doesn't block LOS entirely then they can certainly gain a cover save to the Rhinos and anything else in there.

 

Melta weapons are short range. To make them work against AV14 then the MUST get in close, 12 inches at least. This means that those units are susceptible to whatever is inside the Raider an whatever escort you may have. Which leads me onto my other point....

 

Time to go all Star Wars on you. Your Land Raider is your heavy cruiser. Think of it as a Mon Cal cruiser or a Star Destroyer. These guys are always protected by escorts of fighters, fast mobile units who are able to deal with any threats which get too close. Now take it back to 40k territory and think about how you can protect your Raider. Land Speeders or Attack Bikes are VERY nippy and can work well at intercepting any enemy which gets too close. HF/MM Speeders are my units of choice as they can deal with encroaching infantry or dreadnoughts with equal success. However, Attack Bikes are also very strong as they can hide in the shadow of the Raider until they are needed. A jump pack assault squad is also very effective. They can hide in the shadow of the Raider and then jump over it, giving a nasty shock to anything nearby.

 

I also disagree with the "if you take one then take two" theory when it comes to Raiders. In all other cases I would agree, but Raiders are too damned expensive for that. One Scout/Storm unit could take out both on turn one. Two MM Speeders could do the same. That's 500 points gone, as well as the transport for those assault terminators and a hefty amount of of your heavy firepower. Yes, it would be a lucky player who pulled that off, in turn one, but it would take a couple of turns for your Raiders to get into effective range. This is purely theoretical on my part, as I have not run with a double Raider list before, and I'm sure that there are people here who will swear by them, but it is something you need to keep in mind.

 

To give an example of how I've used them well in the past, its all about the speartip. I run a Landraider with two Rhinos tucked in behind (either fully or partway so they can Obscured saves). An assault squad is also packed in behind, sheltered from enemy fire by the tanks. Two MM/HF speeders fly as escort. It's risky, but can be devastating. Just be careful of long range pie plates from Basilisks, Leman Russ etc. One of these dropped in the right place could make a real mess of such a tight formation. The strength behind this is combined arms. Your entire army can move 12 inches per turn gaining 4+ saves against shooting through a combination of your speeders moving fast, the bulk of your Land Raider and smoke launchers. A suicide run by a melta delivery system is risky at the best of times, but when his targets are all getting saves, then his chances of scoring a hit are slim. In fact, at best he's going to get a 17% chance to score a hit (based on BS4 and 4+ save). And then he needs to penetrate and damage the vehicle. They won't be invulnerable, but they will still be scary.