To power fist or not?

[ChapniK]

Greetings Brothers, while looking at several army list, here and on other forums I have come to notice, this trend starting to take place. Allot of army list, when using 10 men grey hunters packs do not field a power fist, but just rely on the mark of the wulfen getting a rend, to save them from dreads and monstrous creatures. Is this a good idea? I mean sure its only one fist attack, two if you charge or manage to get counter-attack, but it seems more reliable them hoping to get a good number of attacks from MOW and then getting rending. Maybe its just me and my lack of adaptation to the new codex and till some mathhammer's it out for me I think that packs should still have a power fist. So to end this and bring out the real question.

 

Should grey hunter packs still be equipped with a power fist?

[hendrik]

i still take the powerfist! even when i take mark of the wulfen. i find rending far too unreliable against dreads etc.

[40k Junkie]

No, its better to use a power sword to get the extra attack. Especially if you are placing a Wolf guard in the unit, give him the powerfist. Also think what the unit will be going up against when making your final choice.

[Evilmerlin]

If there isn't a Wolf Guard with a Power Fist in the unit, then yes I'll take it. If there is one then I would prefer to use the Power Weapon.

[Aeric]

Rending's too unreliable. You need six hits to average one successful rending attack.

Good to have, but don't base any plans on it.

[megamat008]

For the price of a PF you can take a MotW and a Wolf Banner.

 

Combine the two on the first round of a combat, and it will yield much better results than a PF against any targets bar Walkers and Wraithlords, but these are slow as hell and a sound player would NEVER allow them to reach CC.

[WG Vrox]

MotW is a wild card and though I take it in any assault oriented pack, you can't rely on it to come through for you for Mech or MC, better to have both.

 

If you are putting 10 GH in a Rhino and plan to put them on the front lines don't be stingy with the points.

10 GH MG, MG, PF, Motw, Banner. 205

 

If your only running one front line GH pack, your better off with a WG for the leadership, extra attack and weapon options.

 

9 GH MG, PW, MotW, Banner, WG CM/PF 213

 

 

If all your looking for is a tank hunting squad then put in a WG with CM/PW add a MB for added assault potential and give a MG to the GH.

 

8 GH MG; WG CM/PW & MB - 158

 

 

 

Vrox

[Valerian]

For my Rear Consolidation Grey Hunter pack, I am not taking a Fist on a Hunter, but am taking one on the Wolf Guard Leader. For my two Forward Consolidation packs, I am taking a Power Fist on a Hunter and the Leader for 5 Fist attacks on the charge/countercharge.

 

Against a T4 enemy (or higher) a Fist simply averages more kills than a Power Weapon, and has the Strength to threaten vehicles, MCs, and can Instant Death most things in the game. And on top of that, you can still take the MotW and a Wolf Standard to make a Troops choice that fights like an Elite.

 

Valerian

[gojira316]

It depends on what you want your squad of Grey Hunters to do. If they're going after armor then they need two Melta's and a Powerfist. If they're going after infantry then they need two Flamer's and a Power Weapon. I've been using two squads of each type in Drop Pods at 1850 recently and have had success. If I see armor the Melta's come in first. If I see footslogging infantry the Flamer's drop in.

[Grimfoe]

I'm not running fists in my GH squads currently, but it's only because I'm scraping every point I can into some killer units. I'll field Logan and Njal in my 1850 list, so I simply don't have the points.

 

Currently I have three squads at 10 men, 2 plasma guns and a drop pod all for the low low price of 195.

 

That's an awful lot of firepower coming out of the pod. Hard to pass up and I can see keeping the points down to max the number of boots on the ground.

 

That said, if I had the extra points, I'm sure I'd give them fists.

 

(wow, when I reread it, it's really not much of an answer... :unsure:

[Grey Mage]

Greetings Brothers, while looking at several army list, here and on other forums I have come to notice, this trend starting to take place. Allot of army list, when using 10 men grey hunters packs do not field a power fist, but just rely on the mark of the wulfen getting a rend, to save them from dreads and monstrous creatures. Is this a good idea? I mean sure its only one fist attack, two if you charge or manage to get counter-attack, but it seems more reliable them hoping to get a good number of attacks from MOW and then getting rending. Maybe its just me and my lack of adaptation to the new codex and till some mathhammer's it out for me I think that packs should still have a power fist. So to end this and bring out the real question.

 

Should grey hunter packs still be equipped with a power fist?

Yes. Because Rending wont do squat on a S4 model against AV 14, while a fist can still atleast glance it now and again... etc, etc, etc.

 

Fists are all around better than d6+1 rending attacks. Forget the mathhammer and try out the actual application of the item... youll find that Fists are better in combat against enemy infantry, and give you a better chance against enemy armor and monstrous creatures.

 

That being said, Mark of the Wulfen is supposed to be something dreaded by SWs... a curse.

[Grogugluk]

The problem is you are paying so many points for a model with 1 attack.

 

This is ok on the charge or counter charge but in any prolonged combat that many points for one powerfist attack doesn't do it for me. Especially one you can get a powerfist on a Wolf Guard for 5 points cheaper... as well as have 2 base attacks.

 

I can't really see a situation where its going to be efficient points wise to buy that fist when you can get wulfen and a banner for the same cost

[Grey Mage]

The problem is you are paying so many points for a model with 1 attack.

 

This is ok on the charge or counter charge but in any prolonged combat that many points for one powerfist attack doesn't do it for me. Especially one you can get a powerfist on a Wolf Guard for 5 points cheaper... as well as have 2 base attacks.

 

I can't really see a situation where its going to be efficient points wise to buy that fist when you can get wulfen and a banner for the same cost

Try fighting a Dreadnaught in CC.

[Evilmerlin]

The problem is you are paying so many points for a model with 1 attack.

 

This is ok on the charge or counter charge but in any prolonged combat that many points for one powerfist attack doesn't do it for me. Especially one you can get a powerfist on a Wolf Guard for 5 points cheaper... as well as have 2 base attacks.

 

I can't really see a situation where its going to be efficient points wise to buy that fist when you can get wulfen and a banner for the same cost

Try fighting a Dreadnaught in CC.

 

And that hits the nail on the head. Grey Hunter squads being such up close and personal fighters always need to have a S8 weapon handy. Just for the of chance that the opponent walks a Dreadnought into them. Rending is too random to depend on to hurt that Dreadnought. Yes, power fist costs more but you pay for the reliability.

[Grogugluk]

Ya I guess it depends on the whole army and the direction you are heading with it. If you have 10 guys in a rhino to get that second special with no wolf guard and you play a lot of dreads/Wraithlords then I can kinda sorta see that investment. But if you do the math for it.. its still not a good idea.

 

I'm running my Wolves as all infantry with no vehicles so I'm loving the 11 man squads with wulfen the banner and a wolf guard with the fist.

 

6 of those squads.. so much fun.

[Valerian]

But if you do the math for it.. its still not a good idea.

 

I guess I would like to see your math then... I'd like for you to demonstrate how exactly it isn't a good idea.

 

V

[JCarter]

If you are going to fight plague marines much, you can use a WG with fist AND a GH with fist. T5 is tough to put down otherwise. Go with an 8- or nine-man squad if you have to find the points somewhere, because the extra body won't be very effective against Feel no Pain.

[Grogugluk]

Well lets see then.

 

A model on a charge with the powerfist has 2 attacks and if you get charged you have a 72% chance of 2 attacks since I'm assuming no wolf guard otherwise you would take the fist on that model.

 

So against a dreadnought you have either a 16% chance of glancing or a 33% chance of getting a penetrating hit. So roughly half the time when you charge you are going to be rolling on a damage table. On the glancing table the only thing that is really going to save you is a weapon destroyed result or a result to lower the attacks by 1. On a Penetrating hit you have a 33% chance to kill it which is awesome and the rest of the time you aren't going to affect it or are going to just slow it down.

 

If we do the math to see your chances of just killing a dreadnought on the charge here they are. 1/2 hit. 1/3 penetrate 1/3 destroy it. So if you are charging a dreadnought with your basic grey hunter powerfist guy you have a 5.5% chance to destroy it.

If you are in the second round or failed your counter attack roll you have a 2.75% chance to kill it. You can double those odds if you are just trying to immobilize it or get a weapon destroyed result.

 

Against a wraithlord you would have a 25% or 12.5% chance to cause a wound depending on the bonus.

 

Granted this was just using a stock dreadnought as an example but that seems to be the thing people are most afraid to leave home without a fist for. An ironclad adds a bit more of a mess also.

 

I'm by no means advocating no power fists but I think for the stock grey hunter its a big waste of points.

 

Not sure what the wolfen math is... but maybe another post.

[Valerian]

That looks good. Now how about the math demonstrating effectiveness against, say, renegade Marines? And then compare that to either taking a Power Weapon instead, or just going with the MotW? No point in worrying about the effect of a Wolf Standard, as that would help the guy with a Power Fist as much, or perhaps more, than a model with PW or MotW.

 

V

[Grogugluk]

My reaction is that you are better spending those points on wolf guard in almost every circumstance. I guess it really depends on your list and the meta game you play in tournament and local game store wise.

 

I suppose if I had a super tooled out squad that Ragnar was leading for this bonus attacks and such then maybe the fist would be a good idea. Or maybe a drop pod where you really want that extra attack.

 

I've played 2 games with the new wolves and out of my 6 grey hunters squads I ran two without wolf guard fist models. I ran wulfen in every squad and with the banner of awesomeness I think the wulfen wins out. You can re-roll the number of attacks and have a better chance at getting that rend in and when you do rend vs say a dreadnought you can re/roll the result of 1 on the extra d3.

 

For basic lists and grey hunters I'd rather spend those points somewhere else.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

While we waiting for that maths, I'd just add that in any situation you want to take a power fist, dont. Take a wolf guard, and give him the fist. You've saved 2pts and gained a PF attack, a ld bonus, and 1 more towards 5 (so a WG heavy weapon).

 

Next, if you're upset about losing that 2nd special, take a combi on that wolf guard. You still have the 2nd special (albeit only one shot - usually that's all you need as GH are often in combat) and have all the aforementioned benefits, for 3pts.

[Grey Mage]

I dont take Wolf Gaurd in mounted squads most of the time... and by most, I mean 98%+. I didnt think it worth the points in the last book and I really really dont think it is now that theyre even more expensive and GHs have gotten better.

 

And by my clean sweep at the last tournament I think Im headed in the right direction- mathhammer or no.

[Valerian]

My reaction is that you are better spending those points on wolf guard in almost every circumstance.

Of course its better to take the Power Fist on a Wolf Guard - he gets an extra attack, and actually runs 2 points cheaper with a Fist than a Grey Hunter. That isn't the question at issue.

 

You stated that taking a Fist on a Grey Hunter wasn't worth the points, so I'd like to see why your alternative of taking a MotW is better (other than the fact that it is 10 points cheaper). I just wanted to see if you could demonstrate that a model with MotW would average more net kills than a Hunter with a Fist.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the MotW, very cool new addition to this version of the codex. However, since we are discussing the effectiveness of special close combat options for the unit, the math is helpful, and more reliable than our intuition.

 

Also, I hope not to come across as too combatative, its all in fun. Just want to see if you can back up your statement that it isn't worth taking on a Hunter.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Ominous Anonymous]

As a Blood Angels player I'd say Rending is underrated, especially against Dreads. The Power Fist is nice but with only one attack and against most armies you'll have a 50% chance to miss it per turn.

 

Either go Power Weapon/MotW or go home.

[Grey Mage]

Well... lets take the high average of Motw attacks on the charge, getting six attacks- three hit against most opponents, rolling to wound gives us then a 50-50 chance of rending. Assuming you rend you have a 2/3 chance of damaging AV 12... wich in the end means you have a 33% chance of affecting it, or 6% chance of destroying it.

 

Assuming of course that you have the charge and roll the higher of the two average rolls for your attacks of course.

 

Lets look at a similar scenario with the powerfist- 1 hit average, with a 50-50 chance of affecting it, (50%) and 2/3 chance to penetrate with a 1/3 chance of destroying it- or an 11% chance, or roughly twice as often as the MotW model, with a half-again as large chance of simply affecting it with a glancing hit.

 

The numbers are even more in the favor of a Powerfist against an Ironclad Dreadnaught, or a SoulGrinder *IE AV 13*.

 

Of course, the larger potential number of attacks means you have the capability of potentially getting six penetrating hits with a MotW model against a Dreadnaught.... but Im sure we can all agree that its damned unlikely.

 

The Other advantage that a PF has is that because of its higher chance of affecting the dread it is more likely to stun the dread and allow your other GHs to hit it with Grenades the next turn on WS instead of 6's, literally trippling their chances.

 

But then again, I hate mathhammer- Fists are better because they dont require you to be a crazy doomed beserker in the middle of your friends, because they always ignore armor saves, and because I have so many of them sitting around I could make a chaosspawn of solid powerfists and still equip all my squads.