13th Company and the new Space Wolves rule book

[Kasthan]

Hi all,

Now having the new space wolves rule book I am looking to put my 13 co. back into use, however there are some problems:

• The Rune Priest power 'the gate' replaces storm caller, should this now be that it uses up one of the powers he can select?
  Where should Storm Claws source equipment for their Pack leader? (Grey Hunters) Same applies to Bikers and Long fangs, should the rough equivalent be used?
  The 'scouts' special rule should the Codex rule or the main rule book be used?
  The mark of the Wulfen, should this be the one listed in the Eye of Terror or the one in the Space Wolves rule book?
  

 

Help and advice welcome as I doubt GW will ever produce a FAQ to the Eye of Terror rules.

[Hjaertrr]

The eye of terror rules are no longer valid (unless in friendly circumstances) and therefore you should use everything as stated in C:SW not the eye of terror book.

 

However, when playing amongst friends just discuss it with them and see what you can do.

 

Cheers.

[Kasthan]

Yes I know there not 'valid' but I was wondering what takes people might have about the list.

I thought I would be better to discuss it with a large online community than just some friends down at GW.

[Hjaertrr]

Ok, well if you want to use 13th company I would eye use the eye of terror rules as they are or the new SW rules as a 'count as' army.

 

Using the 13th company models/ paint scheme either way wouldnt matter that much, they're still wolves after all.

 

From the sounds of it you're trying to chop and change between rule sets (correct me if i'm wrong), which is unfair. I can't use the old craftworld eldar rules and subsitute in the new stats/ points for units because they're better than the used to be, I would have to use the old stats. Stick to one or the other.

 

Hope that helps.

[Kasthan]

Ok, well if you want to use 13th company I would eye use the eye of terror rules as they are or the new SW rules as a 'count as' army.

 

From the sounds of it you're trying to chop and change between rule sets (correct me if i'm wrong), which is unfair. I can't use the old craftworld eldar rules and subsitute in the new stats/ points for units because they're better than the used to be, I would have to use the old stats. Stick to one or the other.

 

The problems is that like the old codex (Space wolves) it refers to equipment points etc. that are in the Space Wolves rule book, for example the armoury is no longer existent and in addition to this there are rules conflicts that occur.

 

I'm not trying to make the 13th Co. list better etc. all I want is to have a playable list with a great army. I would use Space Wolves as 'counts as' but there is nothing that can simulate the Wulfen (which I have nine of), or the 13 Co. Mark of the Wulfen rules.

 

EDIT; Also the stats are in the Eye of Terror rule are the ones I would be using, not a mishmash of the two codexi.

[rahl02]

Ok, well if you want to use 13th company I would eye use the eye of terror rules as they are or the new SW rules as a 'count as' army.

 

From the sounds of it you're trying to chop and change between rule sets (correct me if i'm wrong), which is unfair. I can't use the old craftworld eldar rules and subsitute in the new stats/ points for units because they're better than the used to be, I would have to use the old stats. Stick to one or the other.

 

The problems is that like the old codex (Space wolves) it refers to equipment points etc. that are in the Space Wolves rule book, for example the armoury is no longer existent and in addition to this there are rules conflicts that occur.

 

I'm not trying to make the 13th Co. list better etc. all I want is to have a playable list with a great army. I would use Space Wolves as 'counts as' but there is nothing that can simulate the Wulfen (which I have nine of), or the 13 Co. Mark of the Wulfen rules.

 

EDIT; Also the stats are in the Eye of Terror rule are the ones I would be using, not a mishmash of the two codexi.

 

If your going to use the stats in Eye of Terror, then use those rule sets. Sticking a Rune Priest with a stat line from C:EoT with the new rules in C:SW is unfair, and cheaping out. In EoT the rune priest has 4 base attacks, an Ini of 5, and I believe a WS of 5. He would then have access to all of the SW powers, and you want to change storm caller to the gate. Yes you'd have to pay for the Force Weapon, unless your going to use the points cost in C:SW which would also be cheeze. Basically pick one or the other, not both. Sorry if I offend you.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to the 13th Co. If you want to use your wulfen models you can use them for MotW in the new dex or, use some earth magnets and put your wulfen on 60mm bases and use them as "counts as" thunderwolf calvery. Find fun and dare me say it fun ways of reinventing the 13th with the new dex, but don't chop up our new hotness dex and replace it with old and busted EoT. (men in black referance LOL)

[Hjaertrr]

What rahl02 said

 

Plus if you want a 13th company, just theme them that way. Lots of rune priests and grey hunters, little armour, lack of blood claws etc.

 

 

"The core of a 13th Company warband are the Grey Slayers. Similar to Grey Hunters, they fulfil the same role in battle.

 

Because of the impossibility of recruiting new brethren, there are no Blood Claws in the 13th Company. Each and every Blood Claw has long since advanced to a higher stage. The Company's assault specialists are the Storm Claws. They are equally experienced, but still more hot-headed and aggressive than the Grey Slayers.

 

The key to the 13th Company's movement through the Warp are the Rune Priests. Because the Eye of Terror has unlocked hidden psychic powers in many recruits, the Company has no shortage of these highly gifted individuals.

 

The 13th Company is also distinguished by maintaining the dark grey Pre-Heresy colour scheme of the Space Wolves on what little remains of their original equipment. Much of their armor and weaponry has been replaced with material scavenged from their fallen Chaos foes. Not surprisingly, their Company has almost no heavy equipment such as tanks, Terminators or Dreadnoughts."

[Kasthan]

If your going to use the stats in Eye of Terror, then use those rule sets. Sticking a Rune Priest with a stat line from C:EoT with the new rules in C:SW is unfair, and cheaping out. In EoT the rune priest has 4 base attacks, an Ini of 5, and I believe a WS of 5. He would then have access to all of the SW powers, and you want to change storm caller to the gate. Yes you'd have to pay for the Force Weapon, unless your going to use the points cost in C:SW which would also be cheeze. Basically pick one or the other, not both. Sorry if I offend you.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to the 13th Co. If you want to use your wulfen models you can use them for MotW in the new dex or, use some earth magnets and put your wulfen on 60mm bases and use them as "counts as" thunderwolf calvery. Find fun and dare me say it fun ways of reinventing the 13th with the new dex, but don't chop up our new hotness dex and replace it with old and busted EoT. (men in black referance LOL)

 

Have you got the Eye of Terror codex?!

For all of the HQ choices you have to refer to the Space Wolves rule book.

A lot of the things you have to refer to the Space Wolves Codex.

 

Could you only post if you actually know the Eye of Terror rulebook. If not your post won't make any sense (e.g. I would not post about DA armies as I don't have a clue about their rules).

[Hjaertrr]

The eye of terror rulebook reffers to the old space wold codex, you use the rules from that. Simple as.

 

PS, I have the eye of terror book open in front of me.

[Kasthan]

Well, I was think something like:

Wolf Lord: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW.

Rune Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW, must replace one P-power with the Gate

Wolf Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment, + wulfen-kind

Wulfen Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws/Grey Slayers: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Grey Hunters for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Fenrisian Wolf Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws Biker Pack: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Swiftclaw Biker Pack for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Long Fangs: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex SW Long Fangs for Pack Leader equipment.

 

This I think would be 'fair' (if it is a thing that 13th Co. can be).

[Hjaertrr]

That does seem relatively fair if you're generally keeping it the same stats/ equipment/ points costs as EoT.

 

Aslong as you explain it to your opponent and they consent you'll be fine. But if they don't you'll be out of a game.

 

However, I think generally it'll cause a fair bit of confusion and I don't like the idea of it.

 

I'm all for 13th company lists but i'm in the all EoT or all C:SW camp i'm afraid.

[rahl02]

Well, I was think something like:

Wolf Lord: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW.

Rune Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW, must replace one P-power with the Gate

Wolf Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment, + wulfen-kind

Wulfen Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws/Grey Slayers: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Grey Hunters for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Fenrisian Wolf Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws Biker Pack: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Swiftclaw Biker Pack for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Long Fangs: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex SW Long Fangs for Pack Leader equipment.

 

This I think would be 'fair' (if it is a thing that 13th Co. can be).

 

I do know the 13th Co. ruleset quite well. I used them in a couple of tourny's years ago. That ruleset uses OLD and BUSTED 3rd ed C:SW ruleset. If your doing to use them in conjunction with the current C:SW it simply won't work. Since we no longer get Wolf Guard pack Leaders now. You'd only have 1 psychic power. NO special charactors. Your basically back to square one using the 3rd ed codex with EoT and only that codex.

 

If your buddies will let you do that, have at. Just don't cry to us when they call it cheeze wiz on crack.

[Kasthan]

I do know the 13th Co. ruleset quite well. I used them in a couple of tourny's years ago. That ruleset uses OLD and BUSTED 3rd ed C:SW ruleset. If your doing to use them in conjunction with the current C:SW it simply won't work. Since we no longer get Wolf Guard pack Leaders now. You'd only have 1 psychic power. NO special charactors. Your basically back to square one using the 3rd ed codex with EoT and only that codex.

 

If your buddies will let you do that, have at. Just don't cry to us when they call it cheeze wiz on crack.

 

Rahl02, the reason I was doing this was to get advice about how to 'fix' the army list, so I can use the models I have paid for. The EofT rule book says refer to the space Wolves codex, that is what I am doing (the same thing that other space wolves players did with the 4th and 5th ed. space marines codex, they did not use the 3rd ed. space marines codex until the new SW codex came out).

 

You don't seem to understand to use Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, all that would need to happen is to select whether you would want, a power fist or power weapon or plasma pistol for the price listed in the current Grey Slayers rules.

 

Special Characters are no big deal and they would not be fitting.

 

You'd use the rules for the current listed HQ choices and pay the points costs listed there.

 

Oh, my friends and local GW are up for a list/army to be used. I would never take 13th Co. into a serious game, I just want to a fun list that works, with up to date rules.

 

So Rahl02 please don't post unless you are going to be helpful or actually think about the rules choices etc.

[Hjaertrr]

But you are not refering to the correct codex, the EoT rules were written with the 3rd Edition SW codex in mind. Same reason you couldn't use craftworld eldar with the current Eldar codex.

 

If the people you are going to be playing have agreed to your propasition then thats fine, but you should really discuss with them what you can/ cannot use as they're the only ones who'll see the army. Its pointless asking people who are against the idea and in all liklihood will never end up playing you, so talk to the people that will.

 

If you want to use your models then use them as 'count as' for something, suggestions for which have already been posted. Even in friendly games against people you don't know don't be surprised if the don't let you use your pic 'n' mix codex.

 

As for rules the ones you suggested earlier would be reasonable for this idea in the company of those whom would accept it.

 

Cheers.

[stinkenheim]

one issue i would have is the use of the old style motw with all the new equipment/sagas. the balancing thing with motw is that its random and doesn't stack with power weapons. in your proposed list youd get the bonuses from sagas, cheaper/upgraded/altered weapons (storm shield for instance) plus the old motw (+d3 attacks, hit and get hit on 3s) that does stack with power weapons. it seems you want the best of both.

 

i really dont see how hard it would be to use the new codex as 13th company. i would use the following get up;

grey hyunters = grey slayers (obvious really, they have bolters/bp +ccw as standard so not losing much in terms of attacks. plus they get 2 special weapons, MOTW, 1 close combat weapon and a wolf totem)

wolf guard = stormclaws (i know not everyone will agree, but they formed the bodyguard of the characters in EOT and will function the same here. they have better stats than bloodclaws and you can equip them the same as your old stormclaws. just because they can all get power weapons doesnt mean you have to)

wolves = wolves (dont really need to explain that :P)

long fangs again as long fangs (sure they lose the ability of taking special weapons but hey you now get additional and cheaper heavy weapons)

TWC = wulfen (as has been said already mount two on a 40mm base, rending, fast moving,access to upgraded weapons and higher str and T)

skyclaws/swiftclaws = stormclaws with bikes/jump packs (obviously they have lower Ws/Bs than their counterparts but you could justify it by saying they are reckless beserkers hence why they are chosen to sow confusion ahead of the main force)

 

use the wolf guard as your only elites, wolf lords can be upgraded with whatever sagas/equipment you want. almost all the units have access to MOTW so you can use those models there. use TWC as your wulfen with long fangs as your only heavy support choice. swiftclaws/skyclaws and wolves as your fast attack and there you go. a fluffy, balanced army with little need to alter your models too much. sure some may need changing but thats the same with all of us when this codex came out.

 

in all i think it would be a far better and fairer way of doing it than cherry picking the older rules you want to use along with the newer rules. obviously you dont have to do it, its your army and as long as your opponent doesnt mind then thats fine, but if you played me, i would question why you couldnt make a themed list from the new codex.

 

+EDIT+ obviously you would loose scout on your army, but you have to adapt. you are getting cheaper units on the whole plus the ability to use special characters if you so wish. you could even use a character with TWM to represent a hero fully gone over to a wulfen.

i dont mean to sound ahrsh or overly critical but if you were my opponent i would have issues with what you are proposing and you reluctnace to just theme your army using the new codex. im not saying that your proposels are overpowered or anything but you will get the same complaints that we had with our previous codex. using an old rules set with all the new toys.

[Kasthan]

Thank you, Hjaertrr.

 

I understand your point about not meeting the people I am discussing with, I thought however that 1) there might be a better pool of people to discuss the idea with and 2) there might be others in a similar situation who might have their own thoughts upon the issues.

[Valerian]

Kasthan,

 

It looks like you are simply trying to "modernize" the old 13th Company list that was created for the 3rd Edition and make a new list that would fit in the 5th Edition. Additionally, you want to keep all of the elements that gives the list a true 13th Company feel. Just like any fan-created army list, this wouldn't be tournament legal and would be subject to the approval of your playing buddies.

 

This is something that I'm more than willing to help you out with. I can't work on it now, but promise to whip something up tomorrow night when I get some free time.

 

I'm a little dissapointed by some of the other responses here; back in the early days of the game this sort of effort would be highly encouraged. The whole point of playing is for you and your pals to enjoy the game, and if getting the most out of it means taking the foundation that GW has provided, and building something better on top of it, then do it. Don't let the naysayers stop you.

 

Valerian

[Hjaertrr]

I understand why you posted and that overall I may not have been that helpful.

 

Personally, i'm going to theme my company around the 13th just because the pre-heresy colour scheme is so much nicer. Also, chain axes anyone?

 

I would however tackle it in such a way as stinkenheim has suggested. I mean if it looks and feels like the 13th company using the normal rules won't matter.

 

If you're still intent on the EoT rules rewrite them, playtest them and use them if the people you play with have no objections, after all its a game for fun, creating your own house rules and not taking the games to seriously was the GW motto when I entered the hobby.

 

PS, I agree with Valerian, its just it sounded like you were trying to take the good from both and leave the bad. Anybody who wants fluff first gets my backing and i'm sorry I wasn;t more supportive. Just thought i'd warn you of how most others would see it.

[WolfScout]

What I would try if this is a friendly game is use the new wolf dex as is and add the Wulfen from the Apoc formation on the GW site

[SpaceWolf13C]

if u want a legal army forget about the EOT codex and just use it has a reference. almost everything converts to the new SW codex.

 

if you want wulfen models they have to be mixed in with other packs. you don't get gate but gain a lot of other, better powers. you lose scout on everything but you can now use wolf scouts. a storm claw biker pack equivalent would be ridiculously overcosted but maybe now they ride giant fenrisian wolves that were transformed in the warp all those years. plus heavy support got so much better. long fangs are cheaper and can pack more firepower than a devastator squad. fenrisian wolves are cheaper and they lose some abilities but if you throw in canis it makes them well worth it. you can even use logan and make even more elite units than gray slayers.

 

just use the EOT as a reference point. if you don't care about legality and nobody in your group does either then why even play with rules. or just make up you own codexes.

[rodgambit]

I used to play BA but I started building a 13th CO. army 2 years back. The new dex came out and I had a bunch of models that were still in the primer phase with one fully painted model to use as my basis for the rest of the army. Once I do get around to finishing my 13th army, I plan on using the original rules in the EoT. I play with a few friends and could care less about having a tourney legal army. I play what I enjoy and none of my buddies have an issue with that. At the same time, I have also already considered building a 13th army using the new codex so if I were you i'd just make 2 list with both rule sets and if playing friends use EoT and if playing a stranger who may have an issue with it then just use the codex rules.

[Kasthan]

Thanks, now it seems as if people understand the angle I am coming from, fluff and enjoyment (at least for this army) to make a list for friendly games.

 

@ Space Wolf 13C: Using equipment from the new SW codex that is not in the 13th Co. fluff/list feels wrong (e.g. Wolf Scouts and Canis). Also we new rules to play a game (even Inquisitor has rules), which the codex provides. Finally if my army is over priced tough luck on me, I'll just have to be a better general.

 

Okay, working through the responses I have come up with a cunning plan (Black Adder).

1. To have a list of pure SW with a 13th Co. feel, so those who don't like the concept of me using EofT don't have to. (This has been a suggestion from many of you)

2. To make a combined list using both EofT and the current SW codex.

 

As listed before, to make a list combining SW and EofT:

Wolf Lord: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW.

Rune Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment + access to EofT version of MotW, must replace one P-power with the Gate

Wolf Priest: See New Dex, use current rules/equipment, + wulfen-kind

Wulfen Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws/Grey Slayers: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Grey Hunters for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Fenrisian Wolf Pack: As is in EofT

Storm Claws Biker Pack: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex Swiftclaw Biker Pack for equipment for Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Long Fangs: As is in EofT, refer to New Dex SW Long Fangs for Pack Leader equipment.

 

However whilst thinking the other day about this some other guidelines popped in to my head:

1. If a model takes MotW (EofT version, SW version is not available) they can not take a Saga (they are to concerned about hunting Russ' enemies than their own personal glory)

2. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders could selected equipment from the Wolf Guard equipment list for the points there

 

More C&C welcome.

[Grey Mage]

[quote name='rahl02' post='2178548' date='Nov 7

Have you got the Eye of Terror codex?!

For all of the HQ choices you have to refer to the Space Wolves rule book.

A lot of the things you have to refer to the Space Wolves Codex.

 

Could you only post if you actually know the Eye of Terror rulebook. If not your post won't make any sense (e.g. I would not post about DA armies as I don't have a clue about their rules).

I dont think your getting it- what these people are saying, and I agree, is that if you want to use them then CONTINUE TO USE THE OLD CODEX. Large letters so youll see it, not to shout.

 

Its alot simpler. It still works just fine with 5th edition, as you no doubt know from the last couple years eh?

 

Otherwise I have little to offer you that you cant figure for yourself- either the characters are the exact same as they are in the new book, or they arent. Up to you and your friends... and WGPLs either have the same options and stats as WGPLs in the new book, or they dont. Again... up to you and your friends. It works just fine this way too.

 

If neither of these options appeal to you... then maybe you could draw something up a bit more concrete, and we could look it over with you?