What Would You Add?

[Castlerook]

First of all, read this

This is not wishlisting, a critique on the codex or the Studio, nor is it a topic to debate whether or not the codex works. This is to be a friendly discussion, not a flame war or an insultfest. Don't argue for arguing sakes. This is a WHAT IF topic, meaning everyone's opinion is valid. If you can't accept that, remember the saying, "You can't say anything nice, don't say anything". Insult someone, and I will ask a moderator to close this topic. Like I said, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion.

 

Right, with that out of the way, onto the topic.

 

Something that occurs in most updates of any codex is the addition of a new unit, be it Infantry, Character type or a Vehicle. Sometimes, these units have existed before, either in a previous edition (such as Penal Legion squads) or introduced through a third party (Anything that has made the jump from Forge World to 40K or the Black Library, or several units introduced in Epic).

 

We all know that this didn't happen with the current Chaos codex, the only major addition was Huron Blackheart, though it is debatable if he is new because the character has existed in one form or another since 2nd Edition.

 

So, heres the topic. Come up with 3 ideas for new additions for the Chaos Space Marine codex, with the following guidelines;

*One Unit Type (This can be an Infantry unit, Biker unit or something similar)

*One Character Type (Not Special Characters, but rather the likes of Interrogator Chaplains, Masters of the Forge, Lord Commissars, etc)

*One Vehicle Type (This can be a variation on an existing tank, or if you prefer a new tank or vehicle.)

*Thats ONE of each type, not three Character types, not 2 Unit types or some other mix, its One each. (I'm looking at you Dan :) )

*You can add rules, just keep them short, this is about ideas, not an experimental rules thread.

*Any or all ideas may be legion specific, just be sure to mention it, e.g. A Night Lords Terror Master instead of just a Terror Master.

*Keep the ideas reasonable and in character with Chaos, Daemon engines..... fun, Daemon Prince with a DeathStrike Missile strapped to his wrist.....not so much.

*No wanting an expanded Wargear section, thats a universal given. All we want to see is the Unit, Character and Vehicle.

 

Again, just to say again, this is just a discussion thread, not a debate whether the codex needs new units. You don't like an idea, fine, its an idea, build a bridge and get over it (Sorry if this topic has too many rules, but frankly too many Chaos Threads tend to degenerate into a seething mass of hatred and insult hurling).

 

Lets see what you guys can come up with.

[Sception]

Only 3? And only one each of character, unit, & vehicle? And no special characters? That's pretty hard for me, since there are a number of units I would add, but apart from special characters I don't feel any particular gaps in the current HQ lineup. Oh, sure, the current characters could use some more options, but I don't feel any need for entire new character types. As such, I'ma stick with the other two.

 

 

 

Unit: Cultists. Yeah, I want cult terminators, too. And yeah, Cultists aren't really 'new', since they've existed in the past. But still, I think cultists would be the single biggest and best addition to Codex: CSM possible. Traitors, Mutants, and other lesser rabble are a big part of the Chaos fluff, and all the Legions use them in one form or another. Including cultists, and making them an appealing and important option, would also make Chaos Marines more distinct from their several shades of loyalist bretheren. Not that they're indistinct at the moment, but more distinct is always better, neh?

 

They'd be a troop choice, fairly inexpensive, armed with lasguns or laspistols & ccweps, and sized at 10-30. Up to two could be upgraded to have a special or heavy weapon (missile launcher, heavy stubber, mortar), and one in ten could be upgraded either to a big mutant (tough, few attacks at high strength, maybe a heavy stubber or the like) or chaos spawn (not as tough, more attacks at lower strength, maybe rending). They'd come with a sergeant that could be replaced with a chaos marine aspiring champion.

 

 

 

For vehicle, I'd add a scouting squadron of mini daemon engines to fast attack, acting something like sentinels in imperial guard. They'd come 1-3, have very light armor, scout, fleet, Bs3, daemonic possession, and two S5 attacks apiece. They'd come with reaper autocannons, but could replace them at varrying points costs with heavy flamer, lascannon, TL heavy bolter, or a single dreadnought close combat weapon. They'd be small and spidery, possibly with a special rule allowing them to climb vertically impassible terrain or occupy the upper stories of a building.

[Lay]

Cultists

 

Dreadclaws

 

Permanent Marks with full effect

[Corpse.]

Chaos Bikers

All rules in the book with the following changes:

Costs 28 points each (they have 2 attacks and loyalists don't, but chaos cannot have attack bikes)

Units of 10 models strong may be taken as troop choices.

(I rather follow the eldar wraithguard version then the marine HQ on bike version, less min/maxxing)

 

 

Chaos Dreadnought

All rules in the book with the following changes:

If you pick two DCCW you may count a result of a 1 as a 6 instead.

If you pick a missile launcher with another ranged weapon you may count a 6 as a 1 instead. (This can be brutal if you know how)

 

 

Doomrider: 175 Points

Daemon Prince with the following changes:

Counts as being mounted on a jetbike.

Toughness 6.

Counts as having the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon.

Model has Doombolt and may cast it twice.

 

 

Thats my pick.

 

 

 

 

(Spawns 33 pts each and dont give KP's, Chaos Lords Daemon weapons require a LD check before being used instead of rolling a 1 for the self inflicted wound, khorne daemon weapon forces two wounds on a fail LD check, Lash rules made like Pavane, Gift of Chaos rules made like Boon of Mutation, Daemon Prince similar to Daemon Codex Daemon Prince)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Sounds like Stalk Tanks from Dan Abnett's books malisteen.

 

My suggestions:

 

The return of the Chaos Lt. It would be a lord with restricted gear but at a much cheaper price and reduced stat line. 2 wounds, 1 less attack. The point of these guys would be efficiency. They would pay less for a power weapon than a lord, but wouldn't have the option for, say, claws or daemon weapons. They would have to be attached to a squad. They would be ICs, but would not have the option to leave their units, only becoming true ICs once the squad was dead. Their wargear options would also include any options the aspiring champion of the squad they were attached to would be (so if they were in a noise marine squad they could buy a doom siren). You could take 2 of these guys in 1 HQ slot, but they would not meet the force org HQ req. The idea of them is to be slightly stronger champions to help bring back the fewer but more elite feel of chaos marines.

 

For vehicle it would be a generic daemon engine. It would start as AV 10 all around and you would pay increasingly more for each point of armor you add. You would have to pick either tank or walker. Then buy up to 4 or 5 guns/weapons on it out of a fairly large selection. It could be marked, with different upgrades and weapon options depending on what mark it had (for example, khorne marked ones would play less for CC weapons, but couldn't take the speed upgrades slaanesh ones have access to, or the cheap armor upgrades nurgle could).

 

For unit i'd want to see some sort of command squad. This would be an honor guard style unit of 2-5 guys with lots of upgrades and wargear available, including options to give them all daemon weapons (assuming daemon weapons get un-gimped), and multiple wounds. They would have access to several banners/standards that provided upgrades to them and their attached lord as long as the standard lived. This would be things like eternal warrior or veteran skills, or effects similar to the new space wolf sagas. They could be in any sort of armor and have jump packs or bikes or even steeds, whatever fits the lord. This would be another step towards the idea of chaos having fewer but more powerful guys.

[Maledict]

Unit: Really can't think of anything besides Cultists. They should be a viable troop choice and not a meat shield for the main army to hide behind however.

 

Character Type: Dark Mechanicus. Personally, I've always been fascinated with them, but disappointed that they don't seem play a large role in Chaos. They should be an HQ choice, initially similar to the IG Tech-priest. It can be upgraded with Artificer Armor and/or full Servo Harness. Arms of the Servo Harness may have their "hands" replaced with a variety of weapons, including Lasguns, Grenade Launchers, Plasma Guns, Flamers, Bolters and other "mid size" weapons, as well as several mutations. Essentially you should be able to have a choice between a VERY shooty guy, a not-so-bad CQC unit, a repairer for damaged vehicles, or a mix of stuff.

 

Vehicle: Droppod/Dreadclaw. This is not because SM have this fun little toy right now. Adding this, even to our current codex, will boost the effectiveness of many of our units, specifically our CQC troops and "Special Weapons" teams. Not to mention it would cause chaos (no pun intended) on the battlefield, forcing opponents to fight on two, three, even four fronts. In the troop transport section, possibly with a 0-# limitation on them (I'm thinking 0-3). This limitation should be lifted for specific Legions like the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and World Eaters. It should also be counted as an assault vehicle. The difference between our and theirs is the lack of the Storm Bolter or the choice to load it with a weapon instead of troops. Personally I think the ability to assault the same turn as it drops more than compensates for that slight downside.

[Dan The Deamon]

Troop choices with access to veteran skills. Each legion has a cheaper access to it's equivalent skill.

Ex: Infiltrate 3 points per model. Alpha legion 1 point per model.

stealth 3 points per model. Night Lords and Alpha legion 1 point per model

Hit and run 3 points per model. Night Lords 1 point per model

Tank hunters 3 points per model. Iron warriors 1 point per model.

 

Access to cult Deamons. Number of models restricted to the size of the game.

EX. 0-500 points = 5 cult deamons

500-1000 points 8 cult deamons

for every 500 past 1000 = 3 cult deamons

This way deamons are still much more potent in their own dex but we aren't using vanilla things in both a khorne army or Tzeentch. It would show the rare gift of a god giving his champions his help, but wouldn't allow spamming of awesome deamons.

 

Bring back a better mutation/armory. We have fought for thousands of years longer than the space marines in service today. During that time we should have either collected some awesome wargear, been giften by some gods, or grown very, very dangerous.

[Castlerook]

Yeah, Dan....Theres no Vehicle or Character type you'd want to add?

 

We all want an expanded armoury, so feel free to edit your post or add something else.

[Dan The Deamon]

Well I can't read. I'll have to come back when i've milled it over a bit more.

 

;)

[Sawtooth]

Unit: Cultists. Show the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers some love.

 

Character: Hmm, a tough one. Maybe a Legion specific character type for the Undivided Legions (limited to 1 type per army). So Dark Apostles for Word Bearers, Warsmiths for Iron Legion, err maybe a Mega-Raptor for Night Lords, some kind of super-commando for Alpha Legion, and a mega-possesed for Black Legion. I haven't really thought this idea out, it's the only thing I can come up with.

 

Vehicles: I can't say Brass Scorpion since that's a Forgeworld thing now, so....I guess Dreadclaws. It would be neat if they functioned differently from standard drop pods, though, since they can take off again after landing in the fluff. So maybe after landing and discharging its contents, it can sit and fire its weapons or take off and function like a flier.

[Nehekhare]

I absolutely second maledict's choices of cultists, dreadclaws and dark mechanicus! :devil:

 

next would be special characters for the undivided legions (BL has abby...):

warsmith (honsou?) for IW: PA, LC, combi-melter, servoarm, makes units in cover are fearless, preliminary bombardment

dark apostle for WB: PA, BP, flamer, corrupted crozius, units within 6" are fearless, lesser daemons gain sustained attack

raptor lord for NL: PA, dual LC with +1S, melta bombs, Terror (-1LD in 6"), nightfighting in 1st round

sneaky spy guy for AL: PA, PW, BP with DS3, melta bombs, infiltrate, he+his unit is shot at as per nightfighting rules, army gains move through cover, cultists gain infiltration

 

more: ancient enemies rule, cult terminators, updated vehicles (incl. dread frenzy rules)

[SquirrelKing]

Unit: I would love a unit that can lob grenades. Maybe not super Chaos specific, but could fit as a new type of unit. So many ways to do this, but a basic 12” range, frag grenades (ST4 AP-, blast) or krak (waaaaaaaaaayyyy more expensive, but ST6 AP4, Blast). Possibilities are endless here: Champ can have a melta bomb (ST8 AP3 +2D6 pen, Blast), last man standing in close combat gets to “detonate” (strongest blast available, centered on model). Man, I could go on, and on…

 

 

Character Type: HQ with a good gun. Not a psychic shooting power, a real live gun. Oh, how I miss the Kai gun… Would be BS6 instead of WS6, have powers that help range units, maybe a markerlight type power…

 

 

Vehicle: Tank with reaper autocannon. Seriously, one of the reasons I love Chaos is the autocannon. I just find it’s a cool weapon. So maybe a pred with the option to uprgrade it’s main turret to a reaper? Hell, even go with autocannon sponsons too. I wouldn’t mind a reaper razorback, but that is treading on loyalist designs a bit… While I’m dreaming, rending would be nice too =)

[BrotherLoki]

Here's mine:

 

Unit:

 

Cultists:- Unit size 10-30. WS & BS2. Single CCW. May upgrade with either laspistols or lasguns. May have an Icon. Up to 2 may have a flamer, heavy stubber or missile launcher. Leader would either be a big mutant type or a demagogue minor psyker - not sure which. This is a flexible unit that can either be a cannon-fodder rabble to provide screening, or a relatively potent with the addition of suitable icons and equipment.

 

 

Vehicle:

 

Stalk-Tank:- Similar to an armoured sentinel, but gets move through cover (6 legs) and more emphasis on assault. Choice of weapons - reaper, heavy flamer, lascannon. Possible psyker upgrade.

 

Character:

 

Lieutenant:- A lesser lord suitable for smaller games. Chaos needs a 2W HQ choice.

[Dammeron]

Unit:

 

- I'm of the opinion that it would be very useful and extremely easy to differentiate between Traitor Marines and Renegade Chaos Space Marines by introducing the former as a distinct unit within the Chaos Space Marine army list. Traitor Marines would basically be those Chaos Space Marines who have somehow survived since the Horus Heresy and become extremely elite, embittered and well equipped as a result. They would be a replacement for the lamentably under-baked "Chosen" entry, and would boast a WS of 5, an attacks characteristic of 2 and be Stubborn as standard. They would obviously occupy an Elites slot, be quite exspensive in comparisson to a standard Chaos Space Marine unit and have access to enhanced Marks of Chaos instead of Icons. Along with an extended weapon rack, there would also be an option to introduce them as troops in a chaos force by upgrading a Chaos Lord to a Traitor Marine. Ideally, the standard Chaos Lord would have a WS of 5 and no longer be Fearless, meaning that the enhanced Traitor Lord could boast these traits (A Daemon Prince would be considered a Traitor automatically owing to its status in the service of the Dark Gods, and therefore any army that is led by one would be able to take Traitor Marines as troops as standard). The enhanced Marks of Chaos would ideally allow them to be upgraded with abilities redolent of specific "cults" within the Chaos Space Marine army list.

 

As for the others, I'll have to ponder on it for a while :rolleyes:

[Vissah]

Chaos Bikers

All rules in the book with the following changes:

Costs 28 points each (they have 2 attacks and loyalists don't, but chaos cannot have attack bikes)

Units of 10 models strong may be taken as troop choices.

(I rather follow the eldar wraithguard version then the marine HQ on bike version, less min/maxxing)

 

 

Chaos Dreadnought

All rules in the book with the following changes:

If you pick two DCCW you may count a result of a 1 as a 6 instead.

If you pick a missile launcher with another ranged weapon you may count a 6 as a 1 instead. (This can be brutal if you know how)

 

 

Doomrider: 175 Points

Daemon Prince with the following changes:

Counts as being mounted on a jetbike.

Toughness 6.

Counts as having the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon.

Model has Doombolt and may cast it twice.

 

 

Thats my pick.

 

 

 

 

(Spawns 33 pts each and dont give KP's, Chaos Lords Daemon weapons require a LD check before being used instead of rolling a 1 for the self inflicted wound, khorne daemon weapon forces two wounds on a fail LD check, Lash rules made like Pavane, Gift of Chaos rules made like Boon of Mutation, Daemon Prince similar to Daemon Codex Daemon Prince)

 

Loving the Biker ideas mate Im a big fan of Bikers aswell :)

[Sangneur]

I'm thinking for a new unit type, it'd be kind of cool to introduce a sorcerer IC in an Elite choice. Maybe just one per army, if powerful enough, or a special character. Spess mahreens have techmarines as ICs, they can mill around in different squads, and despite all the fluffy hooplah in the sorcerer entries about them choosing the quick and easy, if not dangerous path to power, Sorcerers are still pretty rare among our ranks. Having sorcerers amongst our ranks available as an Elite choice 0-# would reflect how much easier it is to get started on witchery with the blessings of the gods. Maybe in conjunction with that, we could lower the price of Thousand Sons and remove the Asp. sorcerers, or make them optional. Either way, the Elite sorcerers could be halfway between Asp. sorcerers and Sorcerers in power, and spell arrangement. I'd like techmarines too, but maybe we can't have everything

 

A fast attack vehicle would be cool, every one's saying Dreadclaws, which would be good, but since it's already been reiterated to the 100th time I think I'll comment on our lack of fast attack choices. Something like a hellhound comes to mind, maybe not necessarily in terms of weapons, but rather something that can spray bullets whilst moving at a respectable speed, but I think the blight drones or some other fast moving devilry's what we need. We're lacking in te skimmer department, and plus I'm a magic vs. technology lover, and I think the theme of blurring the two is something upon which our army needs to expand; its one of the things that got me into chaos, but I digress.

 

As for character? No idea, the lieutenant ideas are pretty cool, and I've thought about it myself, but I'll save this spot for later. :)

[SpudMkII]

Unit: Not random, and cheaper possessed(pay for the upgrade like 3.5 dex)

 

Character: Chaos Lieutennant (sp?) back

 

Vehicle: Battleship. seriously. like the planet killer. takes up all heavy support choices, has ten wounds(it could happen w/gw's crazy rules these days) av14. and a special rule which means it must be destroyed by turn 6 or else the chaos player wins as the world just got microwaved.

 

Its about time we got a decent unit!!!

[Dammeron]

Character:

 

- How about something like a Dark Apostle or a Warsmith? Now that I think about it, these could very easily be included as upgrades for Chaos Lords rather than distinct units in and of themselves, and would be a handy dandy way of introducing legion-specific qualities to an army. Such an option, however, would involve introducing character-types that are specific to all of the recognised Chaos legions: something like a Hydra Lord for the Alpha Legion and a Night Master for the Night Lords.

 

Vehicle:

 

- Though I like the Defiler, I've always found it to be somewhat underwhelming as a Daemon Engine. It'd be nice to see a less specific Daemon Engine entry that provides a basic chassis that may be upgraded with various qualities up to a particular pre-established limit so that players can make their own daemon engines. They are, after all, supposed to be some of the most off the wall and wildly inventive vehicles in the 40K universe.

[Excess Nerd]

Character: I like the idea of the up grade of Lord in Dark Apostle and Warsmith idea. It is sad that there is no HQ love for Undivided.

 

Unit: I would say be able to take some of the elite choices and take 1 as a troop but Chaos already has the codex with the most troop options so that seems a bit over kill so I will need to think. Oh wait I lied I would love Legion specific elites or heavies.

 

Vehicle: As i actually play daemons this a moot point for me as i hate all tanks except for my Soulgrinder so I dont really have an opinion here

[Bonham1963]

Character(s): Special HQ's that allow elite, fast or heavy units, as troop choices. For example a nightlord like character that would allow raptors as troop choices.

 

Unit: A troop choice that has fleet and/or hit and run as a special rule. This could also be tied in with the special character selections, mentioned above.

 

Vehicle: Definitely, dreadclaw. Drop pod chaos troops with termies and oblits, could be lethal.

[Inferno Solar]

Character(s): 2 wound Chaos Liutenants with options to make them Legion Specific and effect the army. Otherwise they are a cheap-ish 2 wound Aspiring Champion.

 

IE: Warsmith - While alive lets you re-roll on all Crazed rolls for Chaos Dreadnaughts.

 

IE: Dark Apostle - While alive, starting on turn 2, you may choose to bring in any units of Lesser Daemons that you have in reserve before rolling. If you choose not to force them in, you must still roll to see if they come in anyway.

 

Unit - Cultists is the obvious choice here. Low cost, low effectiveness scoring troop choice. 10 or so of them can be sacrificed instead of a Champion for a Greater Daemon. Would love to see them with Infiltrate to reflect the corrupting nature of chaos. Think Kroot.

 

Vehicle - Dreadclaw would be a lot of fun, but I think I would rather us get a unique FA vehicle, like a chaos speeder, but not a speeder. Preferably a flying analogue of the Defiler. Possessed, skimmer, short range weapons.

[Nehekhare]

ooooh...on second throught, I want an Iron Warrior Dreadnaught Character (Berossus?). Armor 13, 5++, models within 6" are fearless, Plasmacannon or Multimelter, hvy flamer, old crazy table with double attacks/fire twice at nearest enemy.

 

the CSM equivalent to a speeder would be a nurgle blight drone (much better, see IA siege of vraks 3. basically arm12, reaper, soul grinder battle cannon/hvy flamer).

[bap2703]

There are lots of good ideas here...

 

HQ : no need for a completely new HQ, just one highly tunable entry would be more than enough. As long as the possible combination are balanced that would be fine ! (I hate seeing how efficient/cheap is the DP compared to other HQ choices nowadays)

 

Unit : I am fine with what we have, but I think we kind of lack some cheap troop choice. Cultists would be good to capture undefended objectives.

 

Vehicle : I want a Dark eldar raider !... Seriously chaos have access to tons of vehicle in the fluff and in Epic. You can of course play them in apocalypse but why not allow the smaller ones in normal 40k games. Ok I admit I own a cauldron of blood so my opinion is biased :lol: But the idea of a tunable daemonic weapon is great ! It can be a way to include many types of vehicles.

[Dràyhèn]

Chaos Custodes

Yeah. Honour guard type thing, even more cunning & powerful than the Chosen. The ultimate badasses with some highly exotic and varying gear. Representatives of those Heresy-Era vets. Or just true Chosen.

 

Dreadclaw

These would be cool, as I've always liked the notion of BL using these in those surgical strikes. Fits into those "Cut the head off and the body will die" -tactics.

 

Character

Some important Legion based character. Some innovative and cool, lets say some Dark Apostle, Warsmith or NL Talon Master.

 

Edited// Whoops, it happens

[Castlerook]

Drayhen, read the rules I posted at the start of the topic. Just trying to keep this topic under control, One Unit, One Character and One Vehicle.