Feasability of Thunderwolf Cavalry

[IanV]

Sorry if I`m late to the party, but I see no discussion of TWC tactica going on right now. Anyway, just wondering if any of you thought that this could be the new baddest (for however long it lasts) Uber Unit.

 

Because I see a lot of parallelisms with Bike Nobs.

 

Points:(before combat gear)

 

Bike Nob - 45pts

TWC - 50pts

 

Roughly the same

 

Mobility:

 

Bike Nobs - move 12", cannot run, assault 6", turbo-boosters

TWCs - move 6", can fleet, assault 12"! - most gamers are so use to the regular 6"

 

Getting into combat, I`d say advantage to TWC due to fleet and of course the 12" charge.

All around mobility and late game contesting, advantage Bike Nobs.

 

Shooting:

 

Who takes these guys to shoot?

 

Before continuing, a lot of what I`m about to say hinges on TWC being S5 T5 instead of being S4 T4(5). Discussion`s currently going on here. So until GW FAQ`s the said statline, I`m assuming TWC do indeed have S5 T5, a huge difference maker in the following aspects.

 

Combat:

 

Bike Nobs w/ PKs - 3 attacks at S8 I1, 4 on the charge at S9 I1

TWCs w/ PFs - 4 attacks at S10! I1, 5 on the charge, and of course I believe it`s worth mentioning again assault 12"

 

Advantage definitely to TWCs. You can also mix in a few WC to make them more multi-purpose ala TH+SS and dual-LC Terminators. (Plus TWC`s ID Nobs, nobs don`t)

 

Survivabilty:

 

Bike Nobs - T4, Sv6+, turbo-boosters`3+ cover

TWCs - T5 but may take SS but at 30pts - kudos to Mr. Kelly here for balancing the cost

 

I haven`t really been in the game long enough to be able to tell which is better: T5 or T4 with a 3+ cover save. Fewer things can ID the TWCs but the Nobs can get a cover save against the most of the things that could ID them (if they TB). I was hoping some of the vets here can give their insight to this. Plus a good players players would find ways to give these guys cover whenever possible, so I guess I don`t know.

 

Both have big shoot-me signs attached to them.

 

My guess is maybe if you put PF+SS combos or just SS`s on some of the TWCs (maybe 3), then that about gives the edge to TWC.

 

 

Other aspects worth mentioning:

 

Fluffiness:

 

Nob Bikers - Kult of Speed, Orks liking things that are loud, fast and dangerous, etc. for as long as they`ve existed

TWCs - one ton superhumans riding on giant wolves which increases their S and T?... hmmm

 

Although officially in the codex, ergo now official fluff. I would have to say advantage Orks.

 

Honor/Cheeziness:

 

They`re both made of cheddar. You won`t make a lot of friends with them.

 

 

 

So... I know there are a lot of intelligent people here in B&C, I would love to hear what are your thoughts on the TWCs. Maybe bring up some unit combos, other tactics, etc.

 

So, are TWCs the new Nob Bikers?

 

-Ian V

 

EDIT: Just wondering on how good this unit can get. NVM the comparison to Biker Nobs.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

You're forgetting that biker nobs can be scoring, can play the zany wound allocation game, can have a FNP and always have 4+ cover from shooting (Dirty smoke rule)

[Cougemeister]

Don't nob bikes always have a +4 cover save? That right there is great since a demolisher shell or battle cannon shell can be negated half the time, THC's will be well.. demolished if shot by artillery unless you decide to shell out the pts for a Stormshield then which the unit starts to become very expensive compared to the Nobz.

[IanV]

I`m reading the ork `dex right now and yes, they do get the 4+ cover, and FNP, and wound allocation shenanigans, and count as scoring, and can be taken in far greater numbers than TWC, etc...

 

Hmmm, looks like my noobishness is showing. :sweat:

 

PS. Oh well, at least I found the concept of TWC equalling NBs interesting... While it lasted. :D

 

So I guess the question now stands, how good do you guys think TWC can get?

[Octavulg]

I think both are outrageously undercosted, and am glad I play Epic. :D

[Octavulg]

I think both are outrageously undercosted, and am glad I play Epic. :D

[Allerka]

While TWC can be a bit more expensive than NBs, their viability is just as strong, especially with paired with 1-2 ICs that are similarly equipped. With all storm shields, the unit gets a 3+ save against anything that's being thrown at it, and only two guns in the game can insta-kill them (railguns and demolisher cannons). Throwing in a Wolf Lord that's well equipped gives them additional power in CC, as well as letting them benefit from his LD 10. A Wolf Lord and Battle Leader each taking two Fenrisian Wolves as well gives the unit four ablative wounds, which further enhances their survivability. Finally, giving one TWC a special weapon, another melta-bombs, and another MotW lets you make a unit of four fully complex, giving you the same advantage of Nob Bikers.

 

However, you're slightly mistaken in the description of them, TWC can only take one special weapon.

 

Anyway, I've been running a twinked-out WL on TWM, a WGBL on TWM, and a four-man TWC unit, with all of them having storm shields. All told, they run 870 points, but they earn their points back with every game, and annihilate anything they touch. There is NOTHING I fear in close-combat, their speed frequently catches my opponent off-guard, and, if needed, I can split off the WL or WGBL to attack separate targets, which I've been able to do to good effect (like one game where I sent the WL carnifex-hunting by himself, and he killed two in close-combat without taking any wounds). Not counting the attached wolves, I get ten S5 Rending attacks plus whatever the Wulfen one gets (which is usually 5-8 attacks), five S6 Frost Blade attacks, and ten S10 Thunder Hammer attacks (between a TWC with one and the WL with one). So that's generally ~30 attacks that are all Rending or better.

 

I've played ten games now with list centered around this unit, and I've had six massacres, three tables, and one loss. Even in my loss, the TWC and attached ICs annihilated over half my opponent's army in combat, while soaking up most of her army's fire and laughing most of it off (if it had been a kill points mission, I would have won by a huge margin. As it was, it was mostly bad rolling on my part that lost that game). They provide the perfect distraction for my Grey Hunters to advance unmolested, or people focus on the Grey Hunters and then cry when the TWC arrive in their lines at full strength.

[chapter master 454]

Allerka; you missed vortex of doom, a conversion beamer at over 42" and the chapter masters orbital bombarbment (which while 25pts, the fact here is it can insta-kill those things and nailing one is good enough). While I haven't seen them i find it hard to believe they can match nob bikers. Let me put this in basic terms: 2 squads of 5 nob bikers with 2 biker bosses in a 1000 point game can kill another 1000pts army easy and is a legal army, how can you beat that? Nob bikers also have a basic armour save 4+ for your information (not 6+) plus several other stupid rules the codex writer should be publicly neutered for (4+, 4+, T5, 2W, 24" move for 3+...this man should be killed). Your puppies can try and get close but a the end of the day I would be more than obliging to throw lysander in there and show them what instant-death is (Face it, I doubt your puppies can do enough wounds on lysander before he starts swinging and even then normally he would have 5 back up tactical terminators? Oh thats only 450 points by the way).

 

TWC is also the most stupid idiotic idea ever made, I mean you could give the imperial guard S4 I4 and I'd still call TWC more stupid. I mean come on GW, I know your desperate to give us marine players all the unit types but seriously, cav doesn't fit (instead give us something better than poor excuse of a marketing scheme for veteran models)

[Grey Mage]

I think both are outrageously undercosted, and am glad I play Epic. :P

I disagree- with the four mounted tactical squads, or 2 Devastator quads and a Venerable Dreadnaught you can by the for the price of a squad of nob bikers you should be able to take them out without an issue.

 

For the 350 some points that a Thunderwolf Cavalry unit costs your opponent should be able to take enough firepower to wipe them off the board- a 3 strong Broadside Battery with Shield Drones comes to mind as an example.

[Allerka]

Well, yeah, of course I'm not gonna take something like TWC in a 1000-point game. Then again, I haven't played anything below 1750 in like four years. I probably should have mentioned all my games with my list were at 2000 points, as I typically only play in a tournament setting, or practicing for them, etc.

 

Unfortunately, I can't say much about Nob Bikers, as I've never faced them, nor even seen them fielded by anyone I know. However, just as you doubt the effectiveness of the TWC by looking at their stats, I doubt the effectiveness of the Nob Bikers against them. In a recent game, I had my Wolf Lord charged by a 10-man unit of Nobz and a warboss, dealt all of one wound to him, lost half their unit in turn thanks to insta-kills, and the rest were run down. That same Wolf Lord them proceeded to solo-charge a half-dozen genestealers (wiped them out with no wounds), a unit of Stormboyz (again wiped out with no wounds), and it wasn't until he took multiple artillery hits for another wound, and then charged by a pack of regular boyz that went first that he was finally taken out.

 

Grey Mage, you say a 3-suit unit of Broadsides should be enough to take these guys out. Coincidentally, I happened to face a unit of two of them in my last game. They didn't kill anyone. They damaged my Vindicator, but didn't kill anyone out of my TWC, and were wiped out in Assault. After I had already gone through two Crisis Suit teams, a Hammerhead, a Devilfish, and multiple teams of gun drones. I'd also love to see how you can afford four mounted Tac Squads at 400-ish points. ;)

 

CM454, yeah, the idea is a little silly, but it's there, and hardly worse than a lot of other things in the universe. And yeah, I missed a couple other S10 guns, but I've never seen Vortex or a Beamer used, and an Orbital Bombardment only used a couple times (pretty much just by the two people I've faced using Kantor). I'd be more than willing to throw down against Lysander and some TH/SS termies, I've used that combo myself plenty of times. Even if you charge me, I get Counter-Attack (which has yet to fail for me), so it doesn't bother me much either way. I'll obviously go first, with five S6 FB attacks from the WGBL, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+. After that I get let's say 15 attacks from the TWC hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+ with Rending, and then anywhere from 3 to 12 more attacks depending on how many of my wolves are still alive. THEN you get to go, assuming you've survived the 20+ attacks so far. Any Termies you have left will hit on 4+, wound on 2+, with no chance to insta-kill, and I can spread wounds however I want. Lysander can insta-kill, hitting on 3+ as well, but I can allocate his wounds to my Wolf Lord if I want, as he's immune to ID. Meanwhile, my two THs are gonna hit as well. Six attacks from the WL hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and then the TWC with five attacks at 4+ and 2+.

 

So, all told, on a sample dice-off, my WGBL will get four hits, three wounds, and you'll fail one. My TWC will get ten hits, two rends and six wounds, you'll fail two more. Then you get to go. Assuming six attacks from Termies, that's three hits and two wounds, and I fail one. Lysander gets five attacks, hitting four times, wounding three times, I fail one save and lose one TWC model. My Wolf Lord strikes, hitting five times, and wounding four times, you fail two more saves. The last TWC goes, hitting three times, wounding twice, and you take one wound.

 

So, you have Lysander with one wound on him, all your termies dead, and I've still got most of my unit. Obviously, that's just one round of dice, and there's plenty of other variables to take into account, but I don't see it going much different in a straight-up slugfest like that.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Mage, you say a 3-suit unit of Broadsides should be enough to take these guys out. Coincidentally, I happened to face a unit of two of them in my last game. They didn't kill anyone. They damaged my Vindicator, but didn't kill anyone out of my TWC, and were wiped out in Assault. After I had already gone through two Crisis Suit teams, a Hammerhead, a Devilfish, and multiple teams of gun drones. I'd also love to see how you can afford four mounted Tac Squads at 400-ish points. :)

Well, actually, that would be Two pounted tactical squads at 400ish points, the Four tactical squads was in reference to 700-800+pt Nob Bikerz.

 

Base price of 10 Nob Bikerz,1 of whom is a Painboy: 480pts. Throw in 4 Powerclaws, Six Big Choppas, an ammorunt, twinlinked big shootax2, 5 Cybork bodies, and 3 Combi-rokkits: 663pts. Make them scoring? Add in a Warboss on a Bike, with cybork body, heavy armor, attack squig, bosspole, combi-rokkit, and powerclaw: 828pts.

 

Tactical Squad with Missile Launcher and Flamer in a Rhino- 205ptsx4 is 820pts. As an example.

 

5xTWC- SS, TH, Meltabombs- 315pts. Not as fast, or as tough, or technically as killy- but quite good for all that, and more than a match for most enemy squads.

 

3 Broadsides with TLPR, and Multitrackers- 255pts. Twinlinked, even BS 3, hits fairly often- Id expect two hits a turn and two wounds a turn against anything with a T value.... and they instakill THC- who will required atleast two turns to get there... so if theyre lucky the TWC is dead, if they arent then the Broadsides are dead... assuming theres nothing else in the way lol.

[Allerka]

Ok, I gotcha on the Tac Squads. Had me scratching my head there for a second. ;)

 

And yes, emphasis on "if they're lucky". I have the opportunity to screen them if I need to, and they're probably tearing through other units in assault on their way over anyway, reducing the turns they can be shot at. I hit them in turn 5 in my game (I think), after assaulting and destroying things in the previous three turns.

[Grey Mage]

Ok, I gotcha on the Tac Squads. Had me scratching my head there for a second. ;)

 

And yes, emphasis on "if they're lucky". I have the opportunity to screen them if I need to, and they're probably tearing through other units in assault on their way over anyway, reducing the turns they can be shot at. I hit them in turn 5 in my game (I think), after assaulting and destroying things in the previous three turns.

Of course, theres always alot of variables... and the Tau player shouldnt be counting on broadsides alone to take them out. Wich is on the other hand why they are feasable, despite being relatively balanced.