Kaldoth Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I have a small doubles tournament coming up at my local store, and I am kitting my army out for ranged troop killing. Most of the players play either PA or swarm close combat armies, so my loadout will be mostly plasma weaponry and bolters. I was wondering if adding in a Whirlwind would be an effective choice? I have a devastator squad that takes care of most of my tank problems, and they are very few and far between in my store to begin with, so I'm focusing on troop killing power. The whirlwind is tempting, as it offers me a large blast template that can indirectly fire, cause pinning, and can ignore cover. However, now that we have lost landmines, the new rules for the Castellan missiles seem kind of pointless to me. As cover from ordinance weapons is now resolved from the center of the blast template outwards, I don't see the point in using the Castellan variant missile. It ignores cover, but unless an enemy unit is hiding in a bunch of trees, I'm not sure why I would use it as opposed to the Vengeance missile, as it offers a higher Str and AP value, as well as the same pinning effects. Comments? Cheers, -Kal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Whirlwinds are an absolute steal for 85pts. The ability to throw down a template anywhere on the board that hits like a heavy bolter is huge- and its a pinning weapon to boot? Heck yes! The Str 4 AP 5 ignoring cover saves is the absoulte bane of IG and Eldar armies. Got a Bigmek with Custom Forcefield bringing you down? Shell his squad to oblivion with napalm! In fact even Ork Trukks and other light vehicles can be destroyed by this weapon and its superior armor penetration *2d6 choose the highest:)*, ignoring their cover saves! It reliably wipes out light infantry and takes out a couple marines with a solid hit. If you take out 6 marines youve made back your points, and if you pin a unit once you may change the course of a game. I never leave home without one in my SWs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 As a Chaos player, I wish we had it. The ONLY drawback I can see is that it uses up a Heavy slot and you have alot of good options with Heavies. However your main anti-tank comes from either the Elite or Fast slots, so you would be well served in grabbing a Whirlwind. A thought though, I would consider taking 2 if you have the slots available. Put them in opposite corners and you should be able to hit almost anything on the board for most of the game. 2 pie plates are also more reliable when it comes to hitting a target. And if I remember correctly, they can fire directly, so there is nothing wrong with moving and firing to be more accurate (assuming the opponent has more pressing targets to shoot at) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I like the whirlwind model. That being said, some players in my LGS use them all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen them do any serious damage. I don't think they've ever even paid for their points. But then again, I play mech vanilla, so they can't really harm me most of the time anyway. Against hordes, I would say the whirlie would be useful, but then again I feel stuff like MM/HF speeder squadrons is just plain better in both anti-tank and anti-infantry, no matter what you're up against, and would always save those points for a whirl and just get more speeders or the like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I like the whirlwind model. That being said, some players in my LGS use them all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen them do any serious damage. I don't think they've ever even paid for their points. But then again, I play mech vanilla, so they can't really harm me most of the time anyway. Against hordes, I would say the whirlie would be useful, but then again I feel stuff like MM/HF speeder squadrons is just plain better in both anti-tank and anti-infantry, no matter what you're up against, and would always save those points for a whirl and just get more speeders or the like. *pops gigas Rhino with a good salvo from his LC toting Longfangs* *grins* *Places pie-plate over your now bunched up squad of marines* *kills 2-3, is now 1/3-1/2 the way to paying for its points* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I love mine, I think It's great. It might not be too useful against Mech armies (mine does fairly well against guard if none of their squishies are out, 2d6 choose highest works decently against AV10 top armour), bu against anything else it's woth more than it's points. Sure, It's not linebreaker like the vindicator, but it also doesn't have "shoot me" written all over it. The best use I ever got out of it was 1) popping deep striking stormtrooper squads and 2) dropping that plate on Tau Fire Warriors doing the FoF. It's very easy to make the points back (which seems like a holdover from 4th to me) when targets like that are around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Admiral Thrawn Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Why in the world would someone bunch up their unit if they see the Whirlwind on the other side? You'll more likely kill one or two. If you're opponent isn't meching up their infantry, they deserve to be owned by Whirlwinds. It's useful against rangers or pathfinders (Eldar) and footslogging orks and small 'nids, but nothing else is worth shooting. A predator is the same amount of points and is more likely to force saves and kill models. I've had better luck with predators than whirlwinds and I'm sure others have too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Stromclaw Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Whirlwinds are wonderful. Annoying kroot in cover, oncoming ork hordes, guard gunlines, or as Grey Mage so entertainingly pointed out, bunched up marines (footslogging 'zerkers are especially entertaining to shell). If it is infantry the whirlwind can kill it, or if its a terminator keep them pinned. Its just a matter of keeping your lads away from whatever is getting shelled so they dont get hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Why in the world would someone bunch up their unit if they see the Whirlwind on the other side? You'll more likely kill one or two. If you're opponent isn't meching up their infantry, they deserve to be owned by Whirlwinds. It's useful against rangers or pathfinders (Eldar) and footslogging orks and small 'nids, but nothing else is worth shooting. A predator is the same amount of points and is more likely to force saves and kill models. I've had better luck with predators than whirlwinds and I'm sure others have too. And if your relying on your rhinos to protect you then you deserve to have them popped, and watch as pie plates destroy your forces the same turn. But everyones entitled to their own opinions from their own experiances.... so of course, your mileage may vary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 No WW really had me contemplating my navel about becoming a BT. They were a constant in my armies. Sure you might not squash 'that' Nobs mob with one shot but they keep chipping away, chipping away and you'll make your points back. Plus people are reluctant to target them when you have 'bigger' stuff on the table, which allows them to keep firing away. For 85 pts you get a pretty sweet deal. Generally it rocks Tau, IG, Tyranid, Ork & Eldars TROOP choices consistently. My recommendation? Give it a shot (tee hee hee) or should I say give it a whirl (hah hah hah) for a three-ish games and then say no. *If you have statisticitis like me, just keep a tally of points value of kills that it racks up.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thats why the BT have their older brothers- the CF and IF to help them out with the whole artillery thing after all :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I have one and I have its sucessor the thunderfire cannon. They operate very similarly for me and I have to say that unless I know I am facing off against hoard ork, hoard IG or hoard nids I will go with my Thunderfire. It is much more fragile however it is also much more powerful. The choice of rounds and the 4 small shots rather than 1 big shot makes it much more appealing to me. The multiple templates help overcome the lack of luck I sometimes suffer with my Whirly. That said if I know I am going to be facing off against some hoard goodness then I will run the Whirly or both. It puts the weapon on a mobile platform and allows me to shoot indirectly, with so many bodies around it rarely matters if I "miss" my intended target. The strength of the template against MEQ is what makes me prefer the Thunderfire, S6 vs S5 and 4 small Vs 1 large when the name of the game is quantity of wounds definitely overcomes its inherent weaknesses. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thats why the BT have their older brothers- the CF and IF to help them out with the whole artillery thing after all ;). Oh no he di'n't?! Oh my gosh! Oh my Gosh! Time to get out the tongs, somethin' wants some char broiling, boy fren'! Oh my GOSH! :pinch: ;) I would be partial to a coalition Codex though. Peds & Lysander for bolter drill on Sternguard TROOPS, whirlwinds and Devs then the rest as BT with AAC. :yes: I guess that would mean we have the best codex then. :D I think it was Tempus forum who came out with Fellblade upgrade for IG super-heavies to get bs 4 at +75 pts. Maybe one with the mega-bolter & 40 mini capacity.... :woot: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 *pops gigas Rhino with a good salvo from his LC toting Longfangs**grins* *Places pie-plate over your now bunched up squad of marines* *kills 2-3, is now 1/3-1/2 the way to paying for its points* That requires you to hit and penetrate my rhino, then me to fail my cover saves, then you to roll good on a vehicle damage chart, then to get a HIT with the whirlwind, then to get some wounds (it's still wounding only on 3+), and then me to fail the said saves. :D Theoretically, it SOUNDS good and capable of doing serious damage just the way you described, but as I said; I've rarely if ever seen it do anything of the sort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rioniku Anjiru Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I like the Thunderfire better myself, mostly because of the higher strength on the cover-ignoring shot which helps a lot against Orks. Plus if it gets destroyed you get a Techmarine to fix your vindis and preds! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2179903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm really looking forward to using my Thunderfire for the first time: It has been in three games so far, and been popped in the opponent's first round before I've even fired it! Armour 10 sucks, if only the TM could bolster his own :devil: gun! My WW seems to be much more survivable, and if I'm going second, can start out of sight without missing shooting. For splatting rhino disembarkers, I've had exactly the same success as Grey Mage: If I fail to pop the Rhino I'll be using the WW for something else anyway, but if I do pop it they'll all disembark close to the doors, all nicely bunched for me! Next game I'm trying both, at opposite corners, to see how that works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 *pops gigas Rhino with a good salvo from his LC toting Longfangs**grins* *Places pie-plate over your now bunched up squad of marines* *kills 2-3, is now 1/3-1/2 the way to paying for its points* That requires you to hit and penetrate my rhino, then me to fail my cover saves, then you to roll good on a vehicle damage chart, then to get a HIT with the whirlwind, then to get some wounds (it's still wounding only on 3+), and then me to fail the said saves. :) Theoretically, it SOUNDS good and capable of doing serious damage just the way you described, but as I said; I've rarely if ever seen it do anything of the sort. *Shrugs* Mayhap that my normal opponents at tournaments arent of your calibre, but until we meet and throw down over it, Ill just agree to disagree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 *pops gigas Rhino with a good salvo from his LC toting Longfangs**grins* *Places pie-plate over your now bunched up squad of marines* *kills 2-3, is now 1/3-1/2 the way to paying for its points* That requires you to hit and penetrate my rhino, then me to fail my cover saves, then you to roll good on a vehicle damage chart, then to get a HIT with the whirlwind, then to get some wounds (it's still wounding only on 3+), and then me to fail the said saves. :) Theoretically, it SOUNDS good and capable of doing serious damage just the way you described, but as I said; I've rarely if ever seen it do anything of the sort. *Shrugs* Mayhap that my normal opponents at tournaments arent of your calibre, but until we meet and throw down over it, Ill just agree to disagree. Rhinos are not invincible. I pop them all the time, and mine get popped as well. When they get popped your unit is bunched. You better believe I shoot to pop transports before any other shooting on my turn. There are a lot of juicy models in there that a plasma cannon, Demolisher pie plate, or flamer will bestow a bad day upon. My whirlwind once killed half of a Thousand Sons unit in one shot, paying for itself immediately. Right after I popped their ride. With sniper scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm really looking forward to using my Thunderfire for the first time: It has been in three games so far, and been popped in the opponent's first round before I've even fired it! Armour 10 sucks, if only the TM could bolster his own :) gun! If the marine is in cover the cannon gets cover too. So in a way he CAN bolster his gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Recall that LOS is traced from the Thunderfire Cannon and not from the Techmarine....so you can bury that Techmarine behind hard LOS cover (where he can't shoot from) and cover you have. =) Bolster whatever ruin he hinds in for a 3+ cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Recall that LOS is traced from the Thunderfire Cannon and not from the Techmarine....so you can bury that Techmarine behind hard LOS cover (where he can't shoot from) and cover you have. =) Bolster whatever ruin he hinds in for a 3+ cover save. No codex or rulebook handy, but I thought that Artillery requires LOS from both gun and gunner? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 My mistake. For some reason I was under the impression that the TFC didn't count as Artillery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Recall that LOS is traced from the Thunderfire Cannon and not from the Techmarine....so you can bury that Techmarine behind hard LOS cover (where he can't shoot from) and cover you have. =) Bolster whatever ruin he hinds in for a 3+ cover save. No codex or rulebook handy, but I thought that Artillery requires LOS from both gun and gunner? As bannus stated, that is correct- but you can have the techmarine in 3+ cover, the the gun out in the open.... and since 50% of the unit is in cover they would both get a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Also correct. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184379-effectiveness-of-whirlwinds/#findComment-2180577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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