Prokrustes Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 While reading through alot of tacticas and posts in all the chaos forums here I often heard the complaint that whatever traitor legion is rather boring to play with the curent codex, at least when you try to be fluffy and dont use tons of counts as. Therefore I have been wondering which legion is the least boring to play? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawtooth Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 What you're hearing as boring is compared to the last codex. This current codex, all the legions are sort of the same, but the last one allowed for different rules for each. If you have no previous Chaos experience they'll all be the same to you, but probably Black Legion since they're sort of the standard 'we can take anything in the codex' force. If you're not familiar with the last one, each legion had its own special rules. Things like Iron Warriors could take Imperial Guard artillery (looted) and sacrifice Fast Attack slots for heavy slots, or armies dedicated to a single patron god got abilities like free aspiring champions in squads that matched their god's sacred number (if you had 8 Khorne berzerkers you got a free upgrade). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 well the NM water warrior is different , but then again it aint tier 1 too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
traitor_dice Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 whats all this talk of "tiers" i keep hearing? as for least boring.....in the current 'dex, if you're playing competetively its pretty much all the same anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokrustes Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Well..unfortunately for me I read the codex 3.0 and 3.5 before I went out in the store, having little clue about the hobby and bought the codex 4.0 . So I am fully aware what has been lost. However, since GW doesnt want to give me a xenos codex (Necrons, Dark Eldar) to use until they bring out a legion codex or a new chaos codex I have to somehow get along with the current chaos codex. Well..I realized that if you want to be competitive its an all mech double lash demon princes plague marines/berzerkers list. But given the fact that Im looking to play a legion as fluffy as I can I wont play too competitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bap2703 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The more of the same unit you have the more boring the list is. I would say black legion is the least boring because you can include a lot of different units : you can always twist the fluff and find an explanation for these black legion noise marines, black legion plague marines, ... Another way of being boring is playing what everybody already play : DP with lash, obliterators, etc. A fluffy Tzeentch list can bring some fresh gaming... but this is obtained by trading the competitiveness of the list. A last way is to add more randomness... well GW developers think so... A lord that can do up to 19 attacks or nothing, this is funny ! ...unless you are more than 12 years old. Same goes for chaos spaws : playing a full spawn list is something funny to do... once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerical Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Emperor's Children or Black Legion (read: anything not a pure cult list other than EC). Pure World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons are too tactically limited for my taste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Honestly.. I play Iron Warriors.. it gives me access to Khorne related things and takes away any of the other cults.. I do not run lash at all I honestly find it to be pretty easy to overcome. Not to mention anyone playing against chaos pretty much expects to see those lists. If you are looking for something with some fluff and adaptability... Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Renegades, Hell.. You could run Wordies... I know it would be utter trash list but I have been thinking about trying to make a new daemon bomb list.... Obviously it would not work as well as the old one but it would be a TON of fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2179808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 IMO it's choosing the legion with the fluff and paint scheme and play style that you like most that makes it least boring to play. A WE's fan boy, might not care that he only has 1 tactic, rush into CC ASAP. He doesn't get bored b/c that's his favorate phase of the game and that's what he wants to do. There are serious T'sons fan boys out there, they don't care that their army is hard to be really competitive with or to do anything different with, it's a short range shooty and tarpit army, but the love the T'sons so they aren't bored (fustrated sometimes I'm sure). For DG, I think it's the great modeling ops that keep them interested. I play BL, so mine allows the most variation, but really, I run the same kinds of list again and again, that suit my tactics and playstyle, It's my love of BL fuff and history and paint scheme that has kept me playing BL for 10+ years, not that I could put NM's and PM's in the same army if I wanted to. I think every legion player has their own reason that they like that legion and those reasons are what keep them from getting bored with that legion. Pick your legion on the fluff, paint scheme, and play style you like. That is what will keep you from getting bored. Besides another person reason why X legion is the least boring, really doesn't mean that you wouldn't find that legion boring. All that being said, this dex is boring, all the legions are affected by the boringness of this dex, you can't take 90% of the options and flavor away and not have it be more boring. My BL is way more boring (to play and make army lists with) now then it was in 3.5. I am bored with this dex, I am not bored with my BL b/c I love the fluff and paint scheme. That's what you have to go for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Related to this topic, I always wonder why I still see so many people who play Iron Warriors. Is it leftovers from the last codex where they were the power army, or do alot of people just enjoy the background behind them. I completely blame Storm of Iron for my love, before that I was a dedicated Word Bearer. :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummus Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 yeah currently rereadind storm of iron for the third time,awesome read Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Related to this topic, I always wonder why I still see so many people who play Iron Warriors. Is it leftovers from the last codex where they were the power army, or do alot of people just enjoy the background behind them. I completely blame Storm of Iron for my love, before that I was a dedicated Word Bearer. :D Ok, who else here is Storm of Iron guilty? *raises hand* I was going to chip in on behalf of the Iron Warriors too, but I can see it's been done. (Speaking of IW's, I finally updated my list, for those of you who care ;) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;#entry2164582) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yeah mini.. Between Storm of Iron and Dark Sky Black Sun..... I really enjoy the tactics in the books and the type of marines they put forth.. I think daemons are cool and all but I really dont care for them as much as hardened marines who turn a fortress to mush before running in hacking smashing and bludgening everything to death. The use of slaves and prisoners is insane.. Seriously I have happy dreams at night just thinking of the Tor Cristo initial attack. Now i know how useful trucks can be hahaha. Our Patriarch is amazing. Our home planet and fortresses are nothing to shake a stick at.. One word... Warsmith... Easy paint scheme to paint. *looks over his shoulder* the paranoid marines who know.... They really are out to get us! I actually started playing Iron Warriors after reading the 3.5 codex story.. I really enjoyed it.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Is it leftovers from the last codex where they were the power army, or do alot of people just enjoy the background behind them. oblits ....9 only possible for IW..... gav dex... best hvy support ...oblits. IW best hq... DP with dread ax...gav dex welcome to the 2 DP world. + some IW players didnt do full gunline and played 2-3 minimax and 1-2 plasma squads , so its an easy switch to 4 full 10 man squads. just the lascanons have to be changed and if the IW player used havocks with auto canons[and the good ones did because of eldar and nids] they dont even have to do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yeah mini.. Between Storm of Iron and Dark Sky Black Sun..... I really enjoy the tactics in the books and the type of marines they put forth.. I think daemons are cool and all but I really dont care for them as much as hardened marines who turn a fortress to mush before running in hacking smashing and bludgening everything to death. The use of slaves and prisoners is insane.. Seriously I have happy dreams at night just thinking of the Tor Cristo initial attack. Now i know how useful trucks can be hahaha. Our Patriarch is amazing. Our home planet and fortresses are nothing to shake a stick at.. One word... Warsmith... Easy paint scheme to paint. *looks over his shoulder* the paranoid marines who know.... They really are out to get us! I actually started playing Iron Warriors after reading the 3.5 codex story.. I really enjoyed it.. Paranoid? WHO TOLD YOU I WAS PARANOID?!?! Tor Cristo... Ahhh, who doesn't like enslaved guardsmen working as free assault troops? The Warsmith is a living legend and our Patriarch is the king of siege. And Home Planet/Fortresses nothing to shake a stick at? I wouldn't shake a legion of loyalist marines at them if they were lead by Dorn himself! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 , I always wonder why I still see so many people who play Iron Warriors. Is it leftovers from the last codex where they were the power army, or do alot of people just enjoy the background behind them. I completely blame Storm of Iron for my love, before that I was a dedicated Word Bearer. :) I think it's partly b/c they have a specific speciallity, seige (now only in fluff, but still..). Also I think it's "I want lotsa big guns" (again, not in this dex, but still leftover). Also I think b/c they have a realitively simple paint scheme, that a beginer can make look pretty good and a more experienced painter can add more detail, conversions, etc and make look even better. And as everyone else has said, a couple of good books @ the IW's doesn't hurt either. . Basicly conferming what I said to the OP; pick you legion on fluff and paint scheme and that's the best way to not get bored with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Also I think b/c they have a realitively simple paint scheme, that a beginer can make look pretty good and a more experienced painter can add more detail, conversions, etc and make look even better. Basicly conferming what I said to the OP; pick you legion on fluff and paint scheme and that's the best way to not get bored with it. true, so so true Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I just really liked the warsmith idea.. I still have my model and use it as an aspiring champion with power fist from time to time.. The amount of thought that goes into one battle with iron warriors is pretty insane when you think about it.. I mean hell.. In storm of Iron they planted a spy hundreds of years prior to even assaulting the place. The Obliterator cult.. Not because they are the uber model to play... Because they bloody MAKE THEM! because the process is amazing and the actual use in the fluff is so much different then in actual gameplay.. I only own 2 obliterators..... =) If that tells you ANYTHING :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Without turning this more into a IW love fest, I have to say that I like the idea of my Chaos Marines as intelligent methodical planners and villians, not just raving madmen. This is probably why I'm more drawn to the Undivided Legions, as they're less "typecast" into a single role/mindset. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokrustes Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Well..now that I know that IW are still cool to play ;-) and that Word Bearers arent what they used to be...anybody able to tell me how Night Lords fare these days? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Well..now that I know that IW are still cool to play ;-) and that Word Bearers arent what they used to be...anybody able to tell me how Night Lords fare these days? I think Night Lords are still very viable. The most obvious element to a Night Lords army is Raptors and there is nothing wrong with Raptors. They function very much like basic CSMs with Jump Packs instead of Rhinos. I've always thought that Terminators seemed fitting for Night Lords, few things are as scary as 4-5 giant armored warriors appearing out of thin air with guns and claws. Night Lords would probably play similar to a normal Chaos list, just with less emphasis on Heavies and more on Raptors/Fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawtooth Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I can understand why so many people like the Iron Warriors. They have a lot going for them. They bring the big guns, and as Orks have shown us everyone likes mo' dakka. They have a special relationship with Obliterators, who are one of the more interesting things to get vomited out of the Eye of Terror. And they have one of the better battle cries in 40k, the monotonous droning of "Iron within, iron without," is pretty creepy. I've considered making a Chaos army again, but I just haven't had the heart. If I did I'd probably go Alpha Legion, because I love their style. But alas, no cultists makes me sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I've considered making a Chaos army again, but I just haven't had the heart. If I did I'd probably go Alpha Legion, because I love their style. But alas, no cultists makes me sad. I've heard good things about people using the Lesser Daemons as Cultists, make sense. Summoning could be the same as coordinated assaults, coming out of hiding, even teleporting or being flown in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I just really liked the warsmith idea.. I still have my model and use it as an aspiring champion with power fist from time to time.. I use my Warsmith model as Ferrous Ironclaw, counting him as a Chaos Lord with Pair Lightning Claws and Combi-Melta (Gotta love that loophole ^_^ ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2180960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The current rules use the same army list for everything, so 'Legion' is a matter of restricting your unit selection to what is typical of that Legion and then running them with tactics that area appropriate for the Legion. Some Legions have a harder time of this then others due to some of their typical units not being available and not having very good counts as options. All that said - Black Legion: Black Legion comes in two styles. Black Legion fluff has their commanders each following such doctrines and using such tactics as they see fit, so some BL players take them as the anything goes option, varying their lists and tactics from game to game as they see fit, or making up a character of their own and putting together whatever army they think that character would use. Others try to follow the battlefield preferences described in the fluff for Abaddon, the BL warmaster. This means an army based primarily on Chaos Marines, and favoring melee and close shooting, with deep striking terminators with lord striking for enemy HQs. Cult units of any alignment and Possessed are specifically mentioned as favored shock troops or support units as appropriate, and Summoned Daemons are used as fodder. Defilers were first constructed by Abaddon's order for the Black Legion, and the current Defiler rules fit the typical tactics well, providing supporting fire while advancing as the assault wave gets into position, and then jumping in to help finish off hard targets once melee is joined. The former take is arguably the least boring of any of the Legions to play, since the player is free to use anything and fight in any matter without feeling restrained by the fluff. However, for some players a lot of fun and interest in an army can come from letting themes and fluff guide their army construction, and following the exploits of your units and characters from game to game. For these players, following fluff in army construction and tactics makes the actual games more cinematic and engaging. The game is less fun if it can hold your interest, and for these players it's the fluff that keeps their head in the game, so to speak. Some players also like knowing that the army they play is being played in the same way by other players - creating a sort of shared experience. For these players, following typical Black Legion doctrine is preferable to making up a Black Legion lord who uses completely different tactics (even if such is perfectly justified in the fluff). Players who prefer something completely original might be better served by making up their own warband, anyway. Those who want to let the typical Black Legion fluff guide their decisions are rewarded on the field with an army that has considerable versatility and variety, and plays to the overall strengths of the 4.0 chaos book, though it does not revolving entirely around it's most powerful prince/plague/oblit elements. For those why try to follow the fluff for more typical Black Legion tactics, the current codex is somewhat favorable. Most of the units they would use actually have rules, and mostly do more or less what the fluff asks. Overall the 4e chaos book does favor short range shooting and assault with some limited long range support. And a number of the units that Black Legion like to field are pretty good. The current Chaos Marine, Chaos Terminator, and Defiler units are all pretty good. Of the Cult marines, Berzerkers and Plague marines are great. The 'generic daemons' issue doesn't hit BL too hard, since they don't care about the daemons they field - to the typical Black Legion commander they're all expendable fodder, as they more or less are in the current book. This is why people frequently describe the current book as the 'Black Legion' codex, since it seems to take the Black Legion as the point of view when deciding what units to include and what to design them to do. Even Post-Heresy traitors don't fit the current Chaos Codex as well as Black Legion. That said, it's not all rosy for fluff driven Black Legion players under 4.0. While several of their preferred units are great, some are lackluster (summoned daemons) or just bad (possessed), due to lack of utility, lack of reliability, or just an incorrect points cost. Also, while terminators are pretty good in 4e, the 'big unit of terminators led by a terminator lord deep striking onto the battlefield' is probably the least effective common tactic for their use. In general, if you're deep striking termies in the current book, you want to take minimum strength units without characters. If you want to put a character in them, they're far better riding a Land Raider, which again limits the size of the unit, while also being so expensive that it distracts from the other aspects Black Legion fluff that you might be trying to represent in your army in a typical game. But these are minor complaints compared to those of some of the other Legions. So some of our preferred units are inefficient. So what? There are enough preferred units for Black Legion that we can't field them all in a typical game anyway. And at least we have the option - Cult Legions don't have Cult Terminators at all, Iron Warriors can't really field a gunline anymore, Alpha Legion suffered the loss of cultists and had their 'all infiltrate' tactics pulled out from under them, Word Bearers still lack cultists and suffered more then most from the lack of aligned daemons, The Night Lords have to suffer with the current book's painfully inefficient Fast Attack choices, and the Cult Legions lost Aligned Daemons and Cult Terminators, among other things. Non Legion, post-heresy traitors, despite getting more attention in the fluff, still aren't reflected well by the unit and equipment selection. So not only is Black Legion the least boring to play under the current book, though I might have argued it was the least boring to play under the old book due to its varried unit selection and aggressive tactics, it's also the most possible to play. That said, the general lack of options and special rules in the book still leave games feeling a little bland to me. And army construction especially has lost its fun for me - it used to be a whole aspect of the hobby on its own for me, and I would spend countless hours noodling with lists. So while I would say 'Least Boring', I wouldn't go so far as to say 'Not Boring'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/184403-which-legion-is-the-least-boring-to-play/#findComment-2181157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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