Which legion is the least boring to play?

[Sception]

I've heard good things about people using the Lesser Daemons as Cultists, make sense. Summoning could be the same as coordinated assaults, coming out of hiding, even teleporting or being flown in.

 

Still doesn't fit very well. Or at all. Why do your cultists have invulnerable saves? Why are they fearless? Why don't they have guns? Why do they have marine stat lines? Why don't they have sergeants or special weapons? Frankly, I never understood why people thought summoned daemons were a good stand in for cultists. They don't match in special rules, stat lines, or equipment. Which means they match cultists in no way what-so-ever. At that rate, why not just use the basic Chaos Space Marine rules. At least then they aren't fearless, and you can use bolters for your imaginary lasguns instead of nothing, and you can represent their special weapons and sergeants.

 

The only way lesser daemons resemble cultists is that they cost fewer points then marines, and that's an exceptionally flimsy justification for counts-as.

[Dammeron]

I'm not sure I understand the thrust of this question, as technically, all "legions" are the same now; they can be played or fielded in any which way, so how interesting they are to play with largely depends on what you choose to do with them. Certainly, there are certain pre-established conventions that point to particular army builds for each of the traditional legions, but these are currently in no way binding or set in stone. In and of itself, I don;t see this status quo as a bad thing; I think it has marvellous potential, especially for those who wish to create their own "break away" factions or renegade warbands. It just needs a much more concerted and competent implementation (a la Codex: Eldar, Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Imperial Guard).

[chillin]

I think it has marvellous potential, especially for those who wish to create their own "break away" factions or renegade warbands.

 

This dex in no way offers more potiental for "break away" fractions or renegade warbands. I have NO ideal why some people say that

(not trying to sound harsh Dammeron :D ). There is NOTHING you can do in this dex (except combine ancient enemies ) that you could not do better in the old dex, there is LOADS of things you can't do with this dex that you could do with the old.

Far fewer options = far less potential, that's just common sense. That taking away 80% of options some how gives you more freedom and potiental makes no sense at all. That's just the spin GW and Thorpe tried to put on a poorly recieved codex to excuse his lack of effort.

Taking away armoury, D. gifts, vet skills, special icons, psy & special equipment, most vehicle upgrades, god specific equipment & gifts, and legion rules (that you could use or not, your choice), means less freedom and less potental, It's true for factions, renegades and legions.

[Sception]

While that's all fine and good, the Legions do have fluff, and the codex, even this one, can be played to follow that fluff as much as possible, which leads to typical army compositions and play styles, even if they aren't as clearly defined as they used to be.

 

And for those that try and follow the fluff, there have been a lot of changes. Emperor's Children, for instance, were quite versatile thanks to the range of units their mark applied to and the versatile nature of the mark itself. Their melee elements and mobile shooting made them a fun and dynamic army. Nowadays, their mark has only it's melee impact, and the sonic weapons are restricted to a single, somewhat overpriced unit. So there's a lot less range available in an army trying to follow Emperor's Children fluff now then there used to be, leading to somewhat less versatility, mobility, and, imo, fun. An EC army these days is considerably more boring to play with then they used to be.

 

That still doesn't necessarily make them the most boring of the legions. Even now I find Slaaneshii armies less boring to play with and against then 3.5 gunline Iron Warriors. 4.0 makes Iron Warriors (or their closest approximation, anyway) less boring imo simply by removing an all out gunline as a viable option, and forcing the IW player to move a little. Then again, I don't find gunline armies enjoyable anywhere, so I suppose I'm biased.

[the jeske]

break away" factions or renegade warbands.

and somehow all those armies tend to be very much alike [unlike those armies that can be build with IG/SM/SW dex etc].

 

There are two builds that are a bit different then the standard BL list everyone plays . Its the chaozylla [2 dps , 3 defilers build] and the NM water warrior . All other chaos armies have identical game play and as others said are quite boring to play after some time [is the chaos dex a year or older now??] .

[chillin]

armies less boring to play with and against then 3.5 gunline Iron Warriors. 4.0 makes Iron Warriors (or their closest approximation, anyway) less boring imo simply by removing an all out gunline as a viable option, and forcing the IW player to move a little.

 

The new edition of the rules would have done anyway with gunlines anyway, with objectives etc. And actually even in the old ed. (rules) if you played missions or played in tournies w/ missions and scenarios gunlines weren't always that good. It was really just in the "play till everyone is dead" games that gunline armies excelled.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Well structured proposal there malisteen!

 

The former take is arguably the least boring of any of the Legions to play, since the player is free to use anything and fight in any matter without feeling restrained by the fluff. However, for some players a lot of fun and interest in an army can come from letting themes and fluff guide their army construction, and following the exploits of your units and characters from game to game. For these players, following fluff in army construction and tactics makes the actual games more cinematic and engaging. The game is less fun if it can hold your interest, and for these players it's the fluff that keeps their head in the game, so to speak. Some players also like knowing that the army they play is being played in the same way by other players - creating a sort of shared experience. For these players, following typical Black Legion doctrine is preferable to making up a Black Legion lord who uses completely different tactics (even if such is perfectly justified in the fluff). Players who prefer something completely original might be better served by making up their own warband, anyway.

 

I'd disagree with this statement, but only because i'm one of those people you mention who likes to let themes and fluff rule my army list construction. it's completely a matter of personal preference really. And custom warbands are cool, not to mention the amount you can let your imagination run wild!

 

Those who want to let the typical Black Legion fluff guide their decisions are rewarded on the field with an army that has considerable versatility and variety, and plays to the overall strengths of the 4.0 chaos book, though it does not revolving entirely around it's most powerful prince/plague/oblit elements.

 

For those why try to follow the fluff for more typical Black Legion tactics, the current codex is somewhat favorable. Most of the units they would use actually have rules, and mostly do more or less what the fluff asks. Overall the 4e chaos book does favor short range shooting and assault with some limited long range support. And a number of the units that Black Legion like to field are pretty good. The current Chaos Marine, Chaos Terminator, and Defiler units are all pretty good. Of the Cult marines, Berzerkers and Plague marines are great. The 'generic daemons' issue doesn't hit BL too hard, since they don't care about the daemons they field - to the typical Black Legion commander they're all expendable fodder, as they more or less are in the current book. This is why people frequently describe the current book as the 'Black Legion' codex, since it seems to take the Black Legion as the point of view when deciding what units to include and what to design them to do. Even Post-Heresy traitors don't fit the current Chaos Codex as well as Black Legion.

 

Sadly for us other traitors, this is true, though it doesn't mean we can't tailor it to our own manaical devices!

 

That said, it's not all rosy for fluff driven Black Legion players under 4.0. While several of their preferred units are great, some are lackluster (summoned daemons) or just bad (possessed), due to lack of utility, lack of reliability, or just an incorrect points cost. Also, while terminators are pretty good in 4e, the 'big unit of terminators led by a terminator lord deep striking onto the battlefield' is probably the least effective common tactic for their use. In general, if you're deep striking termies in the current book, you want to take minimum strength units without characters. If you want to put a character in them, they're far better riding a Land Raider, which again limits the size of the unit, while also being so expensive that it distracts from the other aspects Black Legion fluff that you might be trying to represent in your army in a typical game.

 

I'd disagree with Possessed being "Bad". They are overpriced and unreliable compared to 3.5, but still have their uses. Without giving too much of my (currently in testing) strategy away, it includes meatshields and Khorne Berzerkers with power weapons and meltabombs :devil:

 

 

But these are minor complaints compared to those of some of the other Legions. So some of our preferred units are inefficient. So what? There are enough preferred units for Black Legion that we can't field them all in a typical game anyway. And at least we have the option - Cult Legions don't have Cult Terminators at all, Iron Warriors can't really field a gunline anymore, Alpha Legion suffered the loss of cultists and had their 'all infiltrate' tactics pulled out from under them, Word Bearers still lack cultists and suffered more then most from the lack of aligned daemons, The Night Lords have to suffer with the current book's painfully inefficient Fast Attack choices, and the Cult Legions lost Aligned Daemons and Cult Terminators, among other things. Non Legion, post-heresy traitors, despite getting more attention in the fluff, still aren't reflected well by the unit and equipment selection.

 

We CAN field a gunline, it's just a bit thinner and potentially includes Chaos Dreads, which can be quite dangerous (Plasma Cannons NOT recommended!)

Otherwise, a fair (and worryingly accurate) statement about non-BL legions. :ermm:

 

So not only is Black Legion the least boring to play under the current book, though I might have argued it was the least boring to play under the old book due to its varried unit selection and aggressive tactics, it's also the most possible to play.

 

That said, the general lack of options and special rules in the book still leave games feeling a little bland to me. And army construction especially has lost its fun for me - it used to be a whole aspect of the hobby on its own for me, and I would spend countless hours noodling with lists. So while I would say 'Least Boring', I wouldn't go so far as to say 'Not Boring'.

 

Fair point about the Black Legion being the most varied, but games feeling bland? I Don't know why you feel like that, as I and a lot of other chaos players I know are still having as much fun (dare i venture, in some cases, More?) as in 3.5 with the new rules. Whilst there is less stuff in 4.0 to "noodle" (as you put it) with, the beauty with the new codex (as I have found with ALL the new codexes i've read) is the neccesity to experiment with new units, and to think "Hmm, how can i fluff this into my army" or "How can I paint these in my Legion colour scheme, yet still make them individual?"

 

Oh, and in agreement with your other comment, in 3.5, IW gunlines were fun to play as for a few games, until you got bored of winning in the same way every game. They were never fun to play against! :sweat:

[Dammeron]

I think it has marvellous potential, especially for those who wish to create their own "break away" factions or renegade warbands.

 

This dex in no way offers more potiental for "break away" fractions or renegade warbands. I have NO ideal why some people say that

(not trying to sound harsh Dammeron ;) ). There is NOTHING you can do in this dex (except combine ancient enemies <_< ) that you could not do better in the old dex, there is LOADS of things you can't do with this dex that you could do with the old.

Far fewer options = far less potential, that's just common sense. That taking away 80% of options some how gives you more freedom and potiental makes no sense at all. That's just the spin GW and Thorpe tried to put on a poorly recieved codex to excuse his lack of effort.

Taking away armoury, D. gifts, vet skills, special icons, psy & special equipment, most vehicle upgrades, god specific equipment & gifts, and legion rules (that you could use or not, your choice), means less freedom and less potental, It's true for factions, renegades and legions.

 

Hey there Chillin,

 

I think I may have worded this very badly; I in no way meant to endorse the criminal simplification rampant within the current codex, rather to imply that the basic initiative to provide a single all singing, all dancing list from which Traitor Legions and Renegade factions of various stripe can be represented is a good one and highly possible to implement well with a little consideration. It's just a shame that it hasn't been yet ;)

[the jeske]

And custom warbands are cool, not to mention the amount you can let your imagination run wild!

yeah and end up with a mix cult army . it is what people call a BL list. The option to take everything and still be fluffy that is what is left of the 3.5 in the new gav dex. And when am not saying that playing a random , non legion warband is bad , there is that problem that a huge part of csm players were legion players [what was it in the B&C pole 132 legion players vs 40+ DIY people?] .

 

I'd disagree with Possessed being "Bad". They are overpriced and unreliable compared to 3.5, but still have their uses.

if a unit has that and is still not bad , what does it have to have extra to actually be called bad?

 

 

The new edition of the rules would have done anyway with gunlines anyway, with objectives etc. And actually even in the old ed. (rules) if you played missions or played in tournies w/ missions and scenarios gunlines weren't always that good. It was really just in the "play till everyone is dead" games that gunline armies excelled.

true . the 4 pie plates lists or full gunline didnt work against eldar, nids .even against chaos it had problems [demon bombs , or infiltration builds].

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I'd disagree with Possessed being "Bad". They are overpriced and unreliable compared to 3.5, but still have their uses.

if a unit has that and is still not bad , what does it have to have extra to actually be called bad?

 

It has to be Overpriced, Unreliable and have no practical use whatsoever... So they're close :P

[satanaka]

I've heard good things about people using the Lesser Daemons as Cultists, make sense. Summoning could be the same as coordinated assaults, coming out of hiding, even teleporting or being flown in.

 

Still doesn't fit very well. Or at all. Why do your cultists have invulnerable saves? Why are they fearless?

 

 

Prolly hopped up on 'Slaught. It's basically the 40K version of PCP.

 

Why don't they have guns?

Because they're hopped up on 'Slaught, they want to take full advantage of the drug.

 

Guns can't do that.

[Sception]

Point remains that lesser daemons resemble cultists in no way what so ever. If you're going to go that far to 'counts as' something, you might as well just use them as chaos marines.

[Sawtooth]

Point remains that lesser daemons resemble cultists in no way what so ever. If you're going to go that far to 'counts as' something, you might as well just use them as chaos marines.

 

Unfortunately I agree 100%. I'd heard of people using them as cultists, and if it works out for them more power to them, but I just can't get into it.

 

As another plus to Black Legion, I have a friend who started such a force in the new codex because he loves having visual variety and practically can't stand taking the same unit twice. Black Legion allows him to mix various Chaos powers and still have a fluffy force, as Black Legion have always been about Legion first. He's still painting, but he's got a central color scheme, and he's going to incorporate various cult colors on appropriate troops to try to have both a unifying theme and a riot of different colors. Of course there's the issue of his love of terminators and the whole cult terminator...meh.

 

I suppose if you were into that kind of visual variety, a Word Bearers army using a ton of lesser demons could work. They'd basically all be the same unit stat wise, but there's that visual variety.

 

Jeez, I'm trying to avoid slipping into a rant about how much better the last Codex was with every point I make. I want to keep the topic on track but...garr. I'm going to go pull a Khârn on something.

[satanaka]

Point remains that lesser daemons resemble cultists in no way what so ever. If you're going to go that far to 'counts as' something, you might as well just use them as chaos marines.

 

 

Considering that cultists were REMOVED from the codex during the change over to 4.0 from 3.5 (*rolls eyes about Gav Thorpe*), you have to work with what you have.

 

Or would you propose those people that did build an AL cultist list in 3.5 to just have spent their money on models for nothing and never to be able to use them again? (Yes, I do fall under that category and have thought several times about proxying my cultists as Lesser daemons.)

[Dan The Deamon]

Adds fuel to fire*

 

My black legion has cult units, oblits, and deamons! It's painted blue with lightning stripes and my guys have wings on their helmets!

 

They call their company THE NIGHT LORDS!!!!

 

:lol: i'm sorry i couldn't resist.

[Sception]

Considering that cultists were REMOVED from the codex during the change over to 4.0 from 3.5 (*rolls eyes about Gav Thorpe*), you have to work with what you have.

 

Or would you propose those people that did build an AL cultist list in 3.5 to just have spent their money on models for nothing and never to be able to use them again? (Yes, I do fall under that category and have thought several times about proxying my cultists as Lesser daemons.)

 

I'm not saying not to use them at all, but I still think generic chaos marine rules are a better counts as then lesser daemon rules. If I were an Alpha Legion player, I'd probably be using my cultists as generic marines and my marine models as chosen.

 

Or just play APO games, and use Guard units. Frankly, most of the Legions only really work in APO these days (Iron Warriors can use basilisks, Aligned Legions and Word Bearers can use real daemons from the daemon codex, every legion can use the guard book for cultists, most of the cult terminator units are added back in specific formations, and so on. Try using the APO rules for games of 2k to 3k points but with no superheavies, and banning some of the more problematic strategems. Works out fairly well, doesn't take all that long, at least you can run a real chaos army.

 

Other then that, well it is what it is.

 

 

Also, before you get too righteous about the 3.5 codex, try to remember that before that every chaos faction could use cultists, which, by the fluff, is entirely right and appropriate. I don't view removing cultists from other legions as any better then removing them from Alpha Legion. Either way it's removing a lot of variety from the chaos book and making them look more like their imperial counterparts in the process. I say bring cultists back, yes, but bring them back for everybody. In the mean time, the unit doesn't exist, and using counts-as for a completely different unit doesn't sit well with me.

[the jeske]

If I were an Alpha Legion player, I'd probably be using my cultists as generic marines and my marine models as chosen.

or use codex sm. scout =culitist. sternguard +pedro= AL marines. 2 units in rhinos one in a pod . dakka pred as support and as AL does use a lot of imperial gear attack bikes as hvy support.

[satanaka]

Also, before you get too righteous about the 3.5 codex, try to remember that before that every chaos faction could use cultists, which, by the fluff, is entirely right and appropriate. I don't view removing cultists from other legions as any better then removing them from Alpha Legion. Either way it's removing a lot of variety from the chaos book and making them look more like their imperial counterparts in the process. I say bring cultists back, yes, but bring them back for everybody. In the mean time, the unit doesn't exist, and using counts-as for a completely different unit doesn't sit well with me.

 

I wouldn't argue with that. In fact, I'd welcome it.