Two Dreadnoughts with Plasma Cannons?

[Night Lord Dred]

This thought came to my head earlier today.

 

 

2x dreadnoughts, each with a plasma cannon for a total of 210 points deployed right next to one another. Normally the 2x DCCWs is the ideal loadout, but for only 5 points more and 1 less attack, you get a devastating weapon.

 

I did the math, and the odds of a raged plasma cannon dread destroying the other dreadnought is less than 1.5%, not including scattering, which is pretty good odds. Doing some type of damage is closer to 10%, but it may be worth the sacrifice.

 

 

I was wondering what you guys thought about this idea.

[chillin]

For me it's not even the shooting your own troops thing that bothers me most @ dreads, it's them being out of your controll 33 % of the time. I tried every way I could think of to use them (b/c I have two nicely converted models). I've had them shoot when I needed to assault, try to assult something that was way out of range, run over to assault a squad that was about to be wiped off the board by a unit of brzrkrs at int.5 b/c the unit I needed the dread to assault was about 1" farther away. So the plaz cannon being inaccurate and less likely to hit your own troops, if the dread were to have to shoot at them, hardly solves all their problems or makes them worth while IMO.

215 = 2 dreads - 2 plaz cannons, in your controll 66% of the time

225 = 3 oblits - 3 plas cannons (or LC's or MM's) in your controll 100% of the time.

.

yeah, I get tired of everything being stacked up against oblits too, but in this case, it was the only other thing we hace with plaz cannons.

To me it's the "in control" 66% instead of 100% , that's the issue here, not how good oblits are.

[CuznP]

Do it!

 

So long as you keep only enemies in your firing arcs, you'd never run the risk of one of the Dreads hitting the other anyhoo.

 

I think it would be a functional duo if destruction!

[chillin]

So long as you keep only enemies in your firing arcs, you'd never run the risk of one of the Dreads hitting the other anyhoo.

 

Keeping enemies in your firing arc does nothing to keep your dreads from shooting each other/friendly troops if they are closer.

[Night Lord Dred]

The point of this is to allow me to bring Havocs and Predator tanks as heavy support options, without feeling bad about not having plasma cannons for AP2 weaponry. Oblits, in my opinion, have 1 advantage over the other, cheaper alternatives - the plasma cannon.

 

Im thinking the 2 dreads are cheap and disposable enough that they wont be relied on at all, so even if they blow each other up all game its not a horrible loss.

 

210 points isnt even enough for a squad of marines.

[CuznP]

Keeping enemies in your firing arc does nothing to keep your dreads from shooting each other/friendly troops if they are closer.

 

Um... what?

 

1. The rules for "Fire Frenzy" is to select the nearest "visible" unit.

2. Dreads are vehicles, thus draw line of sight from their guns.

3. ergo.. no worries!

[minigun762]

Its not a bad idea and I agree with what you're saying for the loadout, its cheap and dangerous to most anything.

 

I also agree with Chillin though, not being able to control what they do is the biggest drawback.

Running with 2 of them does mitigate this to some degree, being as you're more likely for atleast one of them to do what you want.

 

However I'd say that the biggest advantage of a Dreadnought is to add more armor to the table, saturating their anti-tank even further.

 

EDIT: As far as being cheap/flexible and dangerous, for the same price you could buy 3 Terminators and a Reaper. Nothing in there is AP2, but you have full control, you're easier to hide in cover and you can still put out some decent firepower.

[Dan The Deamon]

that's a pretty good idea. The only problem i see with it is if they destroy one of the dreads, you paid 210 for safety from frenzy and it's gone away. It should be okay if you can guarantee that by the time one goes down the other is close enough to your opponent to hit him with frenzy.

[chillin]

Keeping enemies in your firing arc does nothing to keep your dreads from shooting each other/friendly troops if they are closer.

 

Um... what?

 

1. The rules for "Fire Frenzy" is to select the nearest "visible" unit.

2. Dreads are vehicles, thus draw line of sight from their guns.

3. ergo.. no worries!

 

Yeah, we've all heard this baseless (IMO) attempt to skirt the fire frenzy rule. Problem is that in the fire frenzy rule it clearly sz "it (dread) must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit". It does not say "shoots the closest enemy in it's firing arch", the word PIVOTS is in there, to ignor it is really just an attempt to get around what the rule actually sz and means.

But like I said in my post, even if that solved the shooting your own troops problem (which it does not), the bigger problem is that you still have a unit that's out of your control 33% of the time.

[Night Lord Dred]

I think you would have to play them as close combat dreads with the option of a plasma cannon. The PC is only a 5 point premium, so even if you dont use it often, it's not a big deal. Basically keep them moving forward with the rhinos and prince, making a "6" a good thing.

 

 

The dreadnought still has 3 attacks, 4 on charge.

[the jeske]

yes if it does charge/keep going forward and not go crazy and shot at the one next to it when you want it to charge. the problems with dreads and it was told offten before is that its 100+pts of unit you do not control , with two dreads its 200pts and almost 1/5 of whole army .

if the plasma canon was dread only one could argue if the risk of not controling a unit is ok , but we have oblits [cheaper +other weapons , smaller , with deep strike etc] with plasmas. HTH/tar pit units ?? those have to be controled I cant end up with a dread or two baby siting objective campers and then find out they are not going to charge that unit of stealers/zerkers etc .

 

also 4 attacks hiting on +4 ona wounding on +2 aint that peachy . its close to 2 dead meq and less then 1 terminator/unit with storm shields/nob etc

[chillin]

, making a "6" a good thing.

 

Unfortunately, not always, Like I sain, I've had mine roll a 6, meaning he had to run toward and attack the closest unit. That unit was about to be wiped off the board by charging brzrkrs anyway, I needed the dread to assault the next unit so they could not shoot and assault my brzrkrs next turn. He did not do that, he ran over to the same squad the brzrkrs charged, did not even get to swing b/c the brzrkrs are int.5. Next turn he was shot with melta from bikes and brzrkrs were shot up and charged. Neither of those things would have happened if the dread would have charged who he was supposed to. I don't like my units being out of my control, even if it "seems" to be a good thing.

Not saying don't do it, the game is for fun, and when they wk, they will be pretty good. But just pointing out that rolling 1 or 6 is bad (for you) more often then it is good.

[Night Lord Dred]

Ive been using 2 dreads a lot recently as CCW dreads, and theyve definitely performed, even when 1 does something stupid. The only time 1 has done something on a 6 that I wasnt too happy about was when one charged the slaneesh greater daemon character (from chaos daemons ofcourse).

 

Like you said, it is extra armour on the board that your opponent has to deal with. The dreads simply cannot be ignored. For 100 points i find that they really add to the defensive capabilities of the army, and play a unique role with 4 S10 attacks. A lot of units cant touch dreads, meaning it's an autowin if you get into CC.

 

I understand what youre saying, but odds are one of them will do what you want them to, if not both.

 

Jeske - The reason for this is to use up an Elite slot instead of a Heavy Slot. Obliterators are 75 points each. For the same price as only 6 Oblits I can get:

 

Predator Tank - Autocannon, Lascannon, Lascannon

Predator Tank - Autocannon, Lascannon, Lascannon

Havocs - Autocannon, Autocannon, Autocannon, Autocannon + Body guards

Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon.

 

Thats 16 high strength shots, + 1 ap2 S7 blast template + AV12 unit with S10 attacks in CC (+bolters and the option to take yet another rhino to move up the field)

 

Then for another 105 I get another Dreadnought.

 

Total points: 660.

[the jeske]

static preds and havocks , picked over oblits and then untcontrolable dreads to make the list harder? odd for me. specially as I can pay 80 pts more and get a scoring unit of pms or csm with two plasma that always do what I want them to do +they are scoring.

Like you said, it is extra armour on the board that your opponent has to deal with.

no he doesnt. If your opponents armies has problems because you take 2 uncotrolable plasma canons , that 1/3 of the time dont work [or shot at your own guys , but mostlly dont shot at your opponent] , then your opponent is doing something wrong . He should stun those two preds your using and your list starts to have problems with countering mecha builds.

 

 

but odds are one of them will do what you want them to

1/3 of the time they wont . and its time x2 because your runing two , its like a khorn lord with demon weapon . a 1/3 chance of doing nothing or hurting your own army.

units that sometimes work and sometimes dont [to give an example] are zerker with power weapons. techniclly FC should make them imba , but because rhino rush doesnt exist and fist have generally the same kill ratio without FC [and instant kill stuff , counter walkers/MC etc better] they are an option that sometimes works and sometimes doesnt. out of LR they work good , out of rhinos not so much . That is a unit that sometimes works , but its still good [even without fist and FC as long as they dont run in to walkers/MC or tooled up counter unit they do ok] . the dread is meh when it doesnt do what you want it to do and when it does its nothing special an oblit does the same [and more] for less points.

[Void Stalkers]

I kinda thought that the fire frenzy can be a good thing.

Run a dread w/ extra armor + plasma cannon straight towards the enemy and support it with some long range units, then when the dread gets close enough, it wont matter if it rolls blood rage or fire frenzy, it will still do some damage.

the extra armor plasma combo is only 120 points, and is a little harder to kill.

if you take two of these you could run them on opposite ends of the board, next too a rhino or something.

 

sure obliterators are under control 100% of the time, but what if the time your dread goes fire frenzy, the nearer unit is an enemy? boom. two templates plus whatever else you gave it.

 

of course my experiance with the dread is limited to two games since I got him so I may be mistaken with my theory.

[Night Lord Dred]

jeske - Im not trying to flame you, but you need to a) read the topic and understand the basis for this strategy and :rolleyes: open your mind. Everytime you post it's always Oblits & PMs. Guess what? That's not the only way to run a good list. It's a braindead list with no thought behind it that everyone's seen and played against a million times. Your "tier" system is broken as a result.

 

Great, you get PMs (for even more points) that do what you want everytime...except theyre close range, one unit, and are just yet another troop squad. Walkers have their own niche role in an army. You cannot compare what a walker does to a troop squad. PMs cannot take a plasma cannon.

 

We've been over this pred and havoc ordeal - static means nothing. 95% of the long range fire units are static in this game. Just because you can move 4" with oblits and still fire means nothing. Havocs and Preds get way, way more shots.

 

Youre confused as to why I would take 2 preds, havocs, and a dread instead of 6 oblits? Here is why:

 

1. 17 high strength shots each turn (+bolters) vs a maximum of 6 for oblits. This triples the number of shots. The 4 lascannons, and 1 plasma cannon nearly match the oblits firepower on their own, let alone the other 12 shots. Oh yea, you get a walker with 3 S10 attacks in CC.

 

 

2. Defense - 8 havocs, 2 AV13 preds, and 2 AV12 dreads. Long Range fire is going to do nothing to these guys. Dread - 11% chance to be destroyed by a S9 BS4 shot. Pred is 7%.

 

Oblits are 40%...with only 6 men.

 

3. Havocs can buy a rhino that can move up with the rest of my troops as cover/secondary transport.

 

As for the dreads - like I said, I would treat them just like I do my CCW dreads. Move forward as a first priority. Shooting is secondary. Youre paying 5 points and 25%/20% on charge of your attacks for a plasma cannon. Rolling a 6 97% of the is going to just be a good thing. So it goes down to 1/6 chance of something bad happening. In that case, it shoots the other dread and does nothing (or maybe even the enemy and gets a few kills)

[the jeske]

Walkers have their own niche role in an army. You cannot compare what a walker does to a troop squad

I can . What does the dread give to a csm army ? is it a anti tank unit like a sm drop dread ? is it a counter/anti infantry unit like a wright lord or nid MC ? its not . in your set up it is an anti meq , support unit . For a second lets put the 1/3 times doesnt work to the side. how flexible is a footslogging walker ? its a single plasma canon on AV12 . it can get stuned/shaken, its a big[tall] model that may have problems with getting cover [its not a defiler but still it cant hide behind a rhino] . what does a csm or pm unit do . it does anti meq [same as the dreads], it scores + if armed with melta guns it supports the whole chaos schtick of "get them out of the transports and win by having superior troops" . A dread does not support the game mechanics chaos armies use . Because A it cant keep up with the rest of the army and B its random . I cant control it , this means my opponent can use my units and my army , that is very very bad. Now if the dread was a glass canon type of unit [big strong attack weak offense] , one could think about dreads as an option for some odd builds[like chaozylla for example] . old range double tap with plasma canons , maybe not so bad [if the dread worked like in the old dex]. thing is , it doesnt work like that. it can be stuned and do nothing , all it gives is a plasma canon [what oblits also give] and an illusion of being an anti horde tar pit unit [unless it goes crazy the turn it has to move or charge].

95% of the long range fire units are static in this game.

Long Range fire is going to do nothing to these guys.

Welcome to 5th ed . anti tank options this edition . sternguard 5 man with 3 combis , outflanking unit , obel scouts , fire dragons in serpents , drop dreads and drop ironclads , 2 man fusion crisis teams , MM attack bikes, termicid etc . long range fire support is mostlly non existent and if it does its in lists like IG when it can run 16+ hvy weapons without losing the ablity to score or the hvy weapons are run along side fast moving support [tau , IG cav builds] . yes if someone would try to build a gunline list and try to pop tanks with lascanons in a meq build , he would fail. the thing is he would also fail against normal mecha or LR rush build with a such a build.

 

 

This triples the number of shots.

we covered this in the many pred vs oblits topic here and on other forums .I said it once and I will say it again . With SW runing 15 RL , sm runing drop dreads and attack bikes , eldar and IG being actually more shoty ,tau I have problems to see how preds who are easier to spot , but do nothing when stuned or shaken have a higher fire power then an oblit+termicid set up . Even If half the oblits [who can be shielded by rhinos , be in deep strike , get cover more easilly etc] die the rest still is shoting. if two preds are stuned they are turned in to very costlly LoS blockers.

[Night Lord Dred]

So basically Oblits and PMs...closed minded like I said.

 

Again, you are stuck is this poor mindset where there is only one way to play. You are taking zero consideration into how an army flows, how your opponent can deal with each unit, and most of all, opportunity cost.

 

Youve completely put a negative spin on everything. I can do the exact same garbage youre doing to the dread with oblits:

 

----

 

Oblits are useless because they can get taken out for good and not just stunned. They require rhinos to sit back and block los just to minimize the huge odds that they will get demolished by long range fire, even then you still need to be able to see enemies to shoot them.

 

If you deepstrike them you have half your army in reserve, leaving your other units to take twice the amount of fire.

 

Meltas are useless because we have better units to melta with. Plasma is useless due to cover. Lascannons like you said are useless. Youre paying 75 points for a plasma cannons, might as well buy space marine devastators.

----

 

See...its not hard to be closed minded and ignore the advantages of each unit. Just because you are theoryhammering all these situations means nothing.

 

-Dreads only get cover behind a rhino? Please, shoot at them with your 5% chance to destroy it.

-Sternguard droppodding down/Firedragons in wave serpent/etc. to take out a 130 point predator? Yes please. Waste your 200+ point units on a harassment unit.

-A dreadnought doesnt support Chaos' game mechanics? You mean even more armour rushing at the opponent that is terribly deadly in CC doesnt support Chaos?

-Predators getting stunned is bad? You mean the fact that the enemy used a heavy support unit (and got lucky) to stop my pred from shooting for one turn...ONE turn instead of shooting my rhinos (which just moved up another 12") is a bad thing?

 

This could be flipped around completely. Its the same as me shooting my pred to stun their heavy support, which would be seen as a good thing because now our rhinos can move in closer. Yet this is a bad thing because they shot me instead...?

 

 

Its pretty mind boggling how someone can be so negative and closed minded, not even acknowledging advantages. If you dont want to try it, fine, but atleast recognize advantages and allow others to weigh the risks and rewards themselves instead of stating your opinion/situations as fact.

[the jeske]

Again, you are stuck is this poor mindset where there is only one way to play. You are taking zero consideration into how an army flows, how your opponent can deal with each unit, and most of all, opportunity cost.

I think I said it many times. I play NM water warrior , I dont think am stuck in a pm/zerker/oblit mind set. Am just checking how a unit makes the army better . A single dread with a plasma canon does give me nothing I cant get from an oblit . Its uncontrolable [ah and how can I use the "run and dont care "tactic in kill point missions?] and neither has more fire , nor is special in hth. Runing two dreads doesnt make the choice better just like runing 4 spawns instead of 2 doesnt make them viable. two dreads are again dont have more fire power then 2 oblits . they give double the number of kill points , are twice as uncontrolable [the 1/3 chance one will go crazy] . they do not draw fire away from anything , because A they arent as big a treat as a unit of scoring pm/zerker/csm in a rhino , a DP etc B they will not draw fire away from the important parts of the army ,unless its a kill point mission where av12 walkers that are uncontroled ,becomes an even bigger problem . I can try to hide a unit of oblit or move a rhino /remnant squad and hide it , I cant be sure to do the same against a dread that can run out or stand and not move.

 

 

They require rhinos to sit back

not true . oblits can move with the rhino wall as long ,even if its small and made out of just 2 rhinos. oblits are not defilers and unless a unit shoting at them is on second/third floor of a building , they can be los shielded whil up to 11-13" away from rhinos.

 

 

-A dreadnought doesnt support Chaos' game mechanics? You mean even more armour rushing at the opponent that is terribly deadly in CC doesnt support Chaos?

unless you play against an army that is more hth then you.

the dreads on turn of moving/charging decided to shot or charge at the nearest model that may not be something you want ot to get anywhere near of . ask 3.5 ed WE players how they liked uncontroled movement of whole army tailored for hth and hth only.

 

 

-Sternguard droppodding down/Firedragons in wave serpent/etc. to take out a 130 point predator? Yes please. Waste your 200+ point units on a harassment unit.

first of all some of those units cost way under 200 pts . second of all , unlike the chaos dread the loyalist one lands , smokes something and next turn will do so again so you have to divert units to counter it . it will not go wild and as they are offten run in pairs they are a serious treat and while your countering them or the fire dragons or any other unit liek that , the main army is getting less shot at , those are real unit that draw away fire. turning preds around isnt much of option too , because those 2x2 attack bikes with MM are just waiting for you to do that. and without support units there will be problems with getting sm tacticals out of their rhinos fast.

 

Its the same as me shooting my pred to stun their heavy support,

how do you stun a unit in a drop pod . it does nothing to transported unit . so even if a serpent is stun fire dragons still will open fire. you cant stun a termicid or valks that are in reservs. in a IG gunline most of the fire power is in squads so they cant be stuned [but you may shot at the Lemman russ that is true].

 

. If you dont want to try it, fine, but atleast recognize advantages and allow others to weigh the risks and rewards themselves instead of stating your opinion/situations as fact.

what are the advantages of using dreads over normal support units in general chaos lists and could you give an example of a such a list. Also my close mindness as you call it does not come from being negative to the idea of using dreads , but from testing resoults me and my team did [when dex came out and then again when 5th ed came] . Both time we tested dread they were very disapointing. Even in the original chaozylla build [2dps,3defieler 2 dreads 2 csm units] , we found out that runing no dreads but more zerkers and making the list more hth worked better.

[Void Stalkers]

Walkers have their own niche role in an army. You cannot compare what a walker does to a troop squad

 

I can . What does the dread give to a csm army ? is it a anti tank unit like a sm drop dread ? is it a counter/anti infantry unit like a wright lord or nid MC ? its not . in your set up it is an anti meq , support unit . For a second lets put the 1/3 times doesnt work to the side. how flexible is a footslogging walker ? its a single plasma canon on AV12 . it can get stuned/shaken, its a big[tall] model that may have problems with getting cover [its not a defiler but still it cant hide behind a rhino] . what does a csm or pm unit do . it does anti meq [same as the dreads], it scores + if armed with melta guns it supports the whole chaos schtick of "get them out of the transports and win by having superior troops" . A dread does not support the game mechanics chaos armies use .

 

I dont think you can. It can be used to pave a way for the troops meant to take an hold an objective. It provides a more survivable platform for Plasma cannons that wont die from a squad with bolters.

 

give it extra armor. now it can't be stunned. it can move and assault still even when shaken. Defiler's have trouble getting cover too, but they are still used and the dread isn't as tall or wide. Plus you still need to see 50% of the dread.

 

A single dread with a plasma canon does give me nothing I cant get from an oblit .

 

I disagree with this. the Dread draws anti-tank fire in every game I have used mine in. Keeping my Csm squads alive for that much longer.

The obliterator can be murdered from the fire from a single squad's bolter fire, and the dread is impervious to such fire.

 

they do not draw fire away from anything , because A they arent as big a treat as a unit of scoring pm/zerker/csm in a rhino

 

this is debatable.

The sight of a hulking walker charging straight for your lines (even if it sometimes stops to shoot its own) will most likely draws fire.

They may not be able to score, but they can soften up enemy units sitting on the objectives, even if it goes crazy, and simply keep your opponant from claiming that objective.

[Night Lord Dred]

@jeske

 

....the point of my post completely flew right over your head, and ironically enough you just continue to do exactly what I said.

 

You talk like you never have the Chaos dread under control. The odds are you WILL and you can use it just like the loyalist one. You will have a plasma cannon, and you will have 3 close combat attacks, for 100 points. This is a threat. I dont care what you say or what theory BS you come up with, a walker is a threat, especially to vehicles.

 

And for the third time...the plasma cannon is there in case my opponent gets stuck in the open and I can blast them, but I dont want to waste a heavy slot on oblits. Plasma cannons, with all the cover being handed out all over the place, are pretty useless unless you lash them out or your opponent makes a mistake.

 

Dreads are the same as spawn now eh? What a joke.

 

So again (I find myself having to repeat things to you), for the same points as 6 oblits (aka 6 shots), I get the same number of high powered shots with an additional 12 autocannon shots (fact), plus my units are far more resilient (heavily supported opinion) and require more shots to take down (fact). These are all advantages and reasons to go with this format.

 

The debate is whether the risk of the dreads is worth the rewards. I really dont care if you would prefer PMs. I really dont care if you think 6 shots is somehow better than 17 because oblits are shorter. I dont care for your theoryhammering period, as it is completely biased (fire dragons can zip around and blow up preds, yet they cant instant kill 3 oblits? Yea right...how about the fact that bikes are conveniently in perfect position to take down preds if they turn...yea okay...).

 

This isnt what this topic is about.

[chillin]

Another thing that I think warrents some consideration (setting aside the "out of controll" 33% for now) is dread w/ TL'ed AC. Taking the opponents mobility away is such a part of my gameplan and nothing breaks rinos better then the AC's. 4 str.7 shots w/ rerolls, no rino is surviving that, even with smk and cover ! But man, you would have to keep them away from your own rinos, using terrain or maybe a LR (if you were going to take a LR anyway, I took a LR mainly just so I could run my dreads a few times, it wasn't worth it).

In the layout the NLD layed out that would be 16 str.7 shots, 4 of them TL'ed (20 shots w/ 8 of them TL'ed if they fire frenzy (at your opponent, and not you :rolleyes: ) ! No enemy rinos would get anywhere near you, nor ork vehicles. Even needing to 2 wounds to kill each nob, that's alot of dead nobs in 1 round of fire.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Keeping enemies in your firing arc does nothing to keep your dreads from shooting each other/friendly troops if they are closer.

 

Um... what?

 

1. The rules for "Fire Frenzy" is to select the nearest "visible" unit.

2. Dreads are vehicles, thus draw line of sight from their guns.

3. ergo.. no worries!

 

Yeah, we've all heard this baseless (IMO) attempt to skirt the fire frenzy rule. Problem is that in the fire frenzy rule it clearly sz "it (dread) must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit". It does not say "shoots the closest enemy in it's firing arch", the word PIVOTS is in there, to ignor it is really just an attempt to get around what the rule actually sz and means.

But like I said in my post, even if that solved the shooting your own troops problem (which it does not), the bigger problem is that you still have a unit that's out of your control 33% of the time.

 

This is not quite accurate chillin. You are pivoting towards the closest visible unit. Thus, you must check for what unit(s) can be seen before you pivot. The pivot is there to ensure that you are facing the unit you are shooting (just as with normal shooting you need to face it) for armor facing reasons. The actual problem, and point of contention, with the alternate interpretation of FF is that we don't know what "visible unit" means. We don't know if "visible" means that the dread can see it (in its weapon arc) or if it means "not invisible", ie not 100% obscured behind cover. The pivoting doesn't lend any strength to one interpretation over the other either.

 

Another thing that I think warrents some consideration (setting aside the "out of controll" 33% for now) is dread w/ TL'ed AC. Taking the opponents mobility away is such a part of my gameplan and nothing breaks rinos better then the AC's. 4 str.7 shots w/ rerolls, no rino is surviving that, even with smk and cover ! But man, you would have to keep them away from your own rinos, using terrain or maybe a LR (if you were going to take a LR anyway, I took a LR mainly just so I could run my dreads a few times, it wasn't worth it).

In the layout the NLD layed out that would be 16 str.7 shots, 4 of them TL'ed (20 shots w/ 8 of them TL'ed if they fire frenzy (at your opponent, and not you ) ! No enemy rinos would get anywhere near you, nor ork vehicles. Even needing to 2 wounds to kill each nob, that's alot of dead nobs in 1 round of fire.

 

I imagine you could get a pair of dreads into a double LR rush list with ACs, or with plasma cannons. Might have to look into that myself...

[Night Lord Dred]

Interesting idea chillin....

 

However, do you think it would be overkill on the autocannons? What happens when the rhinos are finished?

 

Autocannons ARE the most viable weapon when shooting at marines in cover (only heavy bolters beat them out, but they suck otherwise). Orks would get hit pretty hard too, getting killed on 2s.

 

But the list would still be lacking a plasma cannon.

[chillin]

What happens when the rhinos are finished?

 

But the list would still be lacking a plasma cannon.

 

Start shooting at the marines (or whatever) comes out of the transports. Depending on your drift rolls, the TL AC might be as good/better then the plaz cannon (not likely, but it not like AC useless vs MEQ's). But there are lots of ways to kill marines and win the game once the enemy has no transports and you still do, such a big advantage.

.

Yes it would be "lacking" a PC, but it's not like no plaz cannon = auto-lose.

Yeah, with the other HS in your suggestion, it might be autocannon overkill. But how much fun would it be to see your opponents face when you gathered up 20 dice to roll for all of your AC's ;)

But if the point is to get none oblit (HS) PC's in the army, of course it doesn't achieve the goal. But I think it's something to consider, b/c other then dakka preds & havocs (which set up b4 rinos), it's hard to get the rino eating AC in chaos list.