Wolf Claws and re-rolls...can you divvy them up?

[thade]

Here is the postulate:

 

Given that a WG has one claw, he can choose whether to re-roll failed rolls to hit or to wound; he must declare this at the start of the turn.

 

If a WG has two claws, can he declare some of his attacks as re-rolls to hit, and some as re-rolls to wound?

 

Thoughts?

[Niiai]

Hehe, Thade sead that he would post my claim on the "rules forum" (we had a discusion in the SW sub forum) and that you would "reat it apart" so I feel I should also post my awser to Thade her that inclused the arguments I was building my claim upon on. Sorry if some of it comes out of contexts. Or bad writing, I am a dysletix.

 

- Niiai ;)

 

I do not think they can tear it apart. You are to caught up in the details, I trye dto do the magic comparason to make it more easaly.

 

The model you end up with is the sum of all the points you put in and all the roles that comes out. In this instant we are going to buy the model (with all the stats, movement rules, has 1 hp etc, witch is pretty bland and normal) what we also are bying is two wolf claws. Wolf claws is a lightning claw (and hence use all the rules for it unles othervice noted.) It also have the rules that make shure it is not a lightning claw (otherwice it would just be a fluffy name change to make it more wolfy.)

 

A lightning claw, is is spesified in the "base rules" ad one more attack if you have to of them.

 

"A wolf claw is a lightning claw that allows the wielder to eather re-rolls his To Hit rolls or re-roll his To Wound rolls - the owner must chose at the begining of each Close Combat face."

 

So we have one of the "ekstra attack" rule, and we have two instances of the wolf claw rule. You -could- chose the same roll in both of them, but it seems a bit bad, so you chose both.

 

The rules does not say "A Caracter armed with wolf claws can chose to eather re-rolls his To Hit rolls or re-roll his To Wound rolls - the owner must chose at the begining of each Close Combat face." It seas that "A wolf claw is a lightning claw that allows the wielder...]" That is partlyw hat a wolf claw does (in adision to ignore armour saves, can be used in close combat etc.) The wolf claws do not check in the wielder has an aditional wolf claw, it just gives the wielder an option.

 

You can of course start to speculate how would that work in, would it be just the one attack, or what would it be? The fact is that warhammer is an abstract game with concrete rules to simulate something else. And then you have to abide by those rules, unless you make a house rule otherwice. Personaly I explain the fluff that weialding trwo lightning claws turns you into a razor furball and the two re-rols is the result of two weaponds with good synergi.that are used togeather.

[Legatus]

The general rule is, though that is no longer pointed out specifically in the rules, that a model allways uses the rules of one of it's weapons to fight, while the other weapon only provides the +1 bonus attack.

 

Example: Model with Powerweapon and Boltpistol. All attacks are made with the powerweapon rules, even the bonus attack given to the model because of the second weapon (pistol).

 

Example: A model with two Powerfists uses the rules for a powerfist for all it's attacks. It does not apply the bonus of two powerfists (doubling twice) to his attacks.

[thade]

Oh man. Doubling twice would be awesome.

 

I knew this sounded circumspect, and that would be why. Thanks, Legatus.

[Niiai]

The general rule is, though that is no longer pointed out specifically in the rules, that a model allways uses the rules of one of it's weapons to fight, while the other weapon only provides the +1 bonus attack.

 

Example: Model with Powerweapon and Boltpistol. All attacks are made with the powerweapon rules, even the bonus attack given to the model because of the second weapon (pistol).

 

Example: A model with two Powerfists uses the rules for a powerfist for all it's attacks. It does not apply the bonus of two powerfists (doubling twice) to his attacks.

 

I can't agree with you here. What do you mean by "the general rule"? :-)

 

The rule is that you have the attack caracteristick of the caracter plus any bonuses. (charge, two waponds, counter attack etc.)

 

If we read under the section for fighting with two singel handeled weaponds, page 42 in the rulebook (witch is the case here) we can read under Two of the same special weapon

 

"These models gain one additianal attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack,(here refering to the ekstra attack we get from fighting with two weaponds, in aditional to all other factors (charging, counter attack wtc.)) benefit from the special weapon's bonuses."

 

I will point out that it seas "all or there attacks...benefit form the spescial wapon's bonuses" as in prural. It count both weaponds. It would not help a person fighting with a claw and a power fist for instance, since it spesiefies under Two different special wapons that he must chose one of them.

 

(I got a fantastick picture in my head with two frost weaponds to add a real kick with the +2 str he would get.)

[Niiai]

The general rule is, though that is no longer pointed out specifically in the rules, that a model allways uses the rules of one of it's weapons to fight, while the other weapon only provides the +1 bonus attack.

 

Example: Model with Powerweapon and Boltpistol. All attacks are made with the powerweapon rules, even the bonus attack given to the model because of the second weapon (pistol).

 

Example: A model with two Powerfists uses the rules for a powerfist for all it's attacks. It does not apply the bonus of two powerfists (doubling twice) to his attacks.

 

Why not? Why would not a moddel armed with two power fists benefit for a 3x streangth bonus (topped a 10 of course since it is spesified under the fist.) The ekstra attack does not represent just the fact that he gets one more "punch" from the fist. He can now launch "multiple attack comboes" or close hist fists together and smash them into his oponent (as seen in many Marvel comics, but I do not think, a good punch IRL.)

 

I would like for you to point out where in the rules it says that you can't 3x your streanght. It just seems to me that it is part of the paradigm of the interpeded rules where you play Legatus.

 

- Niiai

[thade]

Two frost weapons do not stack to +2 strength. Each weapons gets a +1 str bonus, so it's points wasted for a second as a pistol will also allow you that +1 on all of your attacks.

 

Both special weapons in your case come with the explicit bonus of re-rolling to hit OR to wound. It does not say "You can split these if you have two." Without that, and all precedents pointing in another direction, that's that.

 

Also, consider what you are arguing for here. Let's assume three attacks, i.e. a wolf guard with two claws.

Re-roll to hit, roll normal to wound: To-hit MEQ with WS 4 you need a 4 (3/6 chance), with rerolls it's 3/6 + 3/6*3/6 (the chance you hit with the first roll + the chance the first roll misses times the chance the second roll hits), 3/4 chance to hit. Given three attacks, you can expect at least one to hit in the first case, at least two to hit in the second case. With a 3/6 chance to wound MEQ, you can expect one wound if you can reroll to-hit.

 

Roll normal to hit, reroll to wound: To-hit you have 3/6, you can expect half of your hits to land, let's say at least one (as we did before). To wound you have precisely the same re-roll math as before, so 3/4 chance, so guess what: you can expect one wound if you can reroll to wound.

 

They are the same versus MEQ, so in general this difference is insignificant.

 

We have, ultimately, three cases to consider.

1. The target model has very high WS. Rerolling to-hit is good in this case, as it will increase your odds of landing a hit.

2. The target model has very high Toughness. Rerolling to-wound is good in this case, as it will increase your odds of landing a wound.

3. The target model has very nearly equal WS and toughness. As a Wolf Guard has equal WS and Str as well, you will find that whether you choose to re-roll hits or wounds, you can expect precisely the same outcome.

 

Well, there you have it. There is no point whatsoever to being able to divvy as you assert you can in these three cases, which are most typical.

 

There is a possible 4th case, which is that your Wolf Guard is in base contact with two models..one of which is hard to hit WS, the other is hard to wound Toughness. If you split your attacks, you will want to reroll to hit on one and to wound on the other, as you may imagine. Considering how tiny your chances are of landing a hit with the ONE die you put towards a model, not to mention how low your odds get with two dice versus the other, you will find that you'll really want to focus your attacks anyway.

 

Now that I've given it a lot of thought, I no longer see any point to your assertion. Frankly this may be why they left it out of the rules. It serves no purpose.

 

Is it the case that you see some special circumstance that I haven't imagined?

 

EDIT: *typo

[Frosty the Pyro]

The general rule is, though that is no longer pointed out specifically in the rules, that a model allways uses the rules of one of it's weapons to fight, while the other weapon only provides the +1 bonus attack.

 

Example: Model with Powerweapon and Boltpistol. All attacks are made with the powerweapon rules, even the bonus attack given to the model because of the second weapon (pistol).

 

Example: A model with two Powerfists uses the rules for a powerfist for all it's attacks. It does not apply the bonus of two powerfists (doubling twice) to his attacks.

 

I can't agree with you here. What do you mean by "the general rule"? :-)

 

The rule is that you have the attack caracteristick of the caracter plus any bonuses. (charge, two waponds, counter attack etc.)

 

If we read under the section for fighting with two singel handeled weaponds, page 42 in the rulebook (witch is the case here) we can read under Two of the same special weapon

 

"These models gain one additianal attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack,(here refering to the ekstra attack we get from fighting with two weaponds, in aditional to all other factors (charging, counter attack wtc.)) benefit from the special weapon's bonuses."

 

I will point out that it seas "all or there attacks...benefit form the spescial wapon's bonuses" as in prural. It count both weaponds. It would not help a person fighting with a claw and a power fist for instance, since it spesiefies under Two different special wapons that he must chose one of them.

 

(I got a fantastick picture in my head with two frost weaponds to add a real kick with the +2 str he would get.)

 

 

Weapon's is NOT plural it's the possesive singular. The possesive plural is weapons'. Legatus was correct, only the one special weapon in a matched pair provides the special rule, the other one ONLY provides the +1 attack.

[thade]

I would like for you to point out where in the rules it says that you can't 3x your streanght. It just seems to me that it is part of the paradigm of the interpeded rules where you play Legatus.

 

Page 42, BRB. "Fighting with two single-handed weapons; two of the same special weapon: These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties."

 

The final reference to "special weapon" is not plural, it it singular possessive. This means that both attacks get the bonus of one weapon. So, in the case of a power sword and offhand (bolt pistol), all of your model's attacks get to ignore armor (including the one that came from the bolt pistol's +1 A bonus, even though the pistol does not get to ignore armor on its own).

 

The rules go on to state that "Only a second power fist...can confer a bonus attack." So, given that a model has two power fists, all of it's attacks - including the bonus attack it gets from the additional power fist - are treated as a Power Fist (2x Str).

 

Them's the brakes, my man.

 

EDIT: Haha, Frosty; we hit the same note, my man. You must've posted as I was formatting my response.

[Legatus]

I can't agree with you here. What do you mean by "the general rule"? :-)

That's how weapons were described in 4th Edition (and worked in 3rd, though the rules were less clear back then). A model allways uses one weapon to attack, while the other one provides the bonus attack. But back then Lightning Claws were the only weapons that did not grant bonus attacks if wielded together with a different weapon, and two different special weapons would still grant the model the bonus attack. With that being changed for 5th Edition GW decided to describe it case by case instead of giving a generic description.

 

If we read under the section for fighting with two singel handeled weaponds, page 42 in the rulebook (witch is the case here) we can read under Two of the same special weapon

 

"These models gain one additianal attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack,(here refering to the ekstra attack we get from fighting with two weaponds, in aditional to all other factors (charging, counter attack wtc.)) benefit from the special weapon's bonuses."

 

I will point out that it seas

"all or there attacks...benefit form the spescial wapon's bonuses"

as in prural. It count both weaponds. It would not help a person fighting with a claw and a power fist for instance, since it spesiefies under Two different special wapons that he must chose one of them.

My english grammar is not all that, but would not the correct form for multiple weapons be "the special weapons' bonuses"?

 

weapon's bonuses = the bonuses of one weapon

 

weapons' bonuses = the bonuses of multiple weapons

 

The description for "A normal and a special weapon" uses the same form. "All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses", and it is definitely singular in that case.

 

 

Edit: doh, too slow...

[Niiai]

OK. I see now that my bad english (being a dyslextic and all) made me miss read the wording. You are right.

 

However, would it work the same way as a wolftooth nekclace?

 

A wolftooth necklace is not a wapond, yet it gives you a bonus. Would the wolf claw loose there re-roll abillaty just because they are a weapon? Think of it as a wargear upgrade like the woolftooth neclace.

[thade]

I'm not clear on what you are asking here, I'm afraid. If you have a Wolftooth necklace, you hit on 3+ regardless of the target's WS. This does work in conjunction with Wolf Claws in the case that you choose to reroll to hit: that is, you could roll to hit on 3+ and - if you roll a 1 or 2 - you could reroll and still hit on a 3+.

 

Wargear that is not a one or two-handed weapon is not affected by (or even referred to by) the single/double-handed weapon rules.

[Niiai]

So, let me se if I have gotten you straight here, the fact that wolf claws are weaponds, means that when you have two of them, they are affected by the rules on page 42, fighting with two singel handed weaponds? Exluding the rules for two weaponds based on the fact that it refers to a a singel weapon and not multiple? And hence is not threated diferent then other pieces of wargear?

 

And they are then not just a flat bonus?

[thade]

I'm sorry, Nilal; I'm having a great deal of trouble understanding what you are saying.

 

Weapons are addressed on page 42 of the BRB. Because of these rules, you only get a 2x bonus from a pair of power fists (nothing more), and only a +1 str bonus from a pair of Frost weapons (not +2).

 

Non-weapon wargear have their own description and rules (which usually bend/break core rules a bit) in their respective codex.

 

There are many cases where non-weapon wargear and wargear have cooperative effects, which are very often in your favor. =)

[Niiai]

Let me clarify. :-)

 

I am begining to think you your acount of the rules is right, but I just want to understand witch spesific rule it is that contradics my hyposasis.

 

And that rule is the one on page 42 in the rulebook under "fighting with two singel handed weaponds" under the entry: "Two of the same special weapond." Because it seas "All of there attacks uses the special weapon's bonuses and penalties." This means that since the wolf claw is a weapon it is treated diferently then the wolf tooth necklace (since it is a wargear not labeled with "weapon") And -hence- you cant re-roll twice?

[Frosty the Pyro]

So, let me se if I have gotten you straight here, the fact that wolf claws are weaponds, means that when you have two of them, they are affected by the rules on page 42, fighting with two singel handed weaponds? Exluding the rules for two weaponds based on the fact that it refers to a a singel weapon and not multiple? And hence is not threated diferent then other pieces of wargear?

 

And they are then not just a flat bonus?

If I am understanding you correctly thats right. the bonuses from weapons are not cumulitive with other weapons, instead the second weapons rules essentialy become "+1 attack" instead of whatever its rules were before, Non-weapon wargear does not have this restriction. So a wolf necklace will stack with wolf claws.

 

So if you have a sergent (2 attacks base and str4) with one powerfist he then has 2 str 8 attacks. If he has two powerfists he then has 3 str 8 attacks (you do not double the str twice). With wolf claws if he had one he would get 2 attacks at str 4 and reroll to hit OR to wound (not both and cannot divide between them), if he had 2 wolf claws it would be 3 attacks at str 4 and reroll to hit or to wound (not both and cannot divide between them). If he had 2 wolf claws and a wolf necklace then it would be 3 attacks that hit on a 3+ and can reroll to hit or to wound (not both and cannot divide between them, though you would almost always want to chose to wound in this case unless your fighting a grot).

 

 

 

Edit

Let me clarify. :-)

 

I am begining to think you your acount of the rules is right, but I just want to understand witch spesific rule it is that contradics my hyposasis.

 

And that rule is the one on page 42 in the rulebook under "fighting with two singel handed weaponds" under the entry: "Two of the same special weapond." Because it seas "All of there attacks uses the special weapon's bonuses and penalties." This means that since the wolf claw is a weapon it is treated diferently then the wolf tooth necklace (since it is a wargear not labeled with "weapon") And -hence- you cant re-roll twice?

 

YES

[Niiai]

Thanks. :-)