Thunder wolf mounts.

[Niiai]

Hi, we have a discusion in the SW forum that started with me wondering what could instant kill my 5 thoughnes marine on a wolf that turned into a whole pile of crap. I boiled down the arguments for and I feel I have an awser that is no to ambigius. Could you guys tell me what you think. Some of the references to eralier posts you will just have to "roll with"

 

"A character with a Thunderwolf mount has the unit type of cavalery,adds +1 streangth, +1 thoughnes, and +1 attack to his profile, and has the rending spesieal...]"

 

It spesifies that it is added to his profile. Not that it "[...add's +1 to the users srteangth...]" like the frost axe/frost blade does. The key word her being his profile. A lott of you argument that it does not spesify, while it actualy does.

 

As statet on page 7 in the rules book a characteristick profile is what decides the diferent stats for a hero. A bike add's one to the users characteristick as well, and it spesifies that as can be seen on page 26 that does not count. Turning to page 26, we se that wargear does not count when it comes to instant death. All are with us for far, and the pro and the not-pro not instanth death people all agree. The thing is that is that it now seas: "In these cases the thoughnes walue will be shown for the thoughnes caracteristiskcs for the model, one witch is in brackets. Use the lower value for working out instant death. Now that is what decides how your read thoughnes for instant death. This is done in the eralier case with Abbadon, or for exampel bikes. All are still with me so far? (PS: Sorry for bad writing but I am a dyslextic.)

 

The Thunderwolf cavalery (witch is a bad example since it no-where in the rules say that they use the wargear thunder wolf, they just use already increased stats, have rending in close combat, and count as cavalery) and Canis Wolfborn. Canis Spesifies on page 54 (SW codex) that Fangir is a monstreus thunderwolf and already included in the profile. It spesifies as a wargear. Neather Canis nor the thunderwolf cavalery have thoughnes in brackets.

 

Going back to the rule we realy are discussing (not the caracteristicks increase but the instant death rule) we se that in those cases where the increased stats will not be countet for the instant death, they are in bracets. Canis Wolfborn and Thunderwolf Cavalary are not in bracets. Although badly worded "A character with a Thunderwolf mount has the unit type of cavalery,adds +1 streangth, +1 thoughnes, and +1 attack to his profile, and has the rending spesieal...]" is a spesification that it add directy to the profile, although a very bad one and very porly worded that does in fact not give us enough of an argument until we read the spesifciation about the brackets, and then check the brackets. No brackets = no instant death (unles of course you use a bigger veapon then str 9)

 

And the defends rest.

 

(I do realice that it is posibly the author of the book forgot to do it all during play testing and editing. Maiby, maiby not. But until there comes and ofisial erata, we have to read the rules as they are spesified, and not just chose the rules as we se fitt. As the rules stand now, they are not exluded form the brackets. An erata may change this, but until that happens, it will work as a thoughnes 5.)

 

- Niiai :_)

[thade]

Some thoughts:

- Cannis Wolfborn and TWC are Toughness 5, not Toughness 4(5) as Bikes are (Swiftclaw Biker Packs are T 4(5)).

- Bikes in the BRB explain that it adds +1 Toughness which does not affect the model's toughness for the purposes of Instant Death.

- Thunder wolves in the Wolf codex explain that it adds +1 Toughness to its profile; it does not speak of Instant Death at all, nor add any qualifiers to the Toughness in that regard.

 

I'm pretty sure Nilal is right. Add a wolf to something, it gets Toughness 5, flat. It's pretty clear and I don't see any evidence which would suggest they missed something here; this seems to be on purpose to me.

 

Dreadnaught close combat weapons, rail guns, and demolishers...anything that's Str 10...can Instant Kill you. Also, Force Weapons (if you don't have Eternal Warrior).

[avatar8481]

You're never going to get people to agree until it's FAQed.

[Niiai]

Why not? The evidence i presentet seems pretty clear to me. Until it gets an erata it does not have a 4(5) thoughnes. The evidence as statet above is that it isn't there, and that is what the instant death rule looks for.

[thade]

Let me first summarize the arguments for.

 

How bikes affect toughness is specifically spelled out in the BRB (p53), where it also states that the added toughness does not negate the effects of Instant Death. Thunder Wolve Mounts have their own entry (in the SW Codex) which states there is a +1 to the model's toughness, but it does NOT state that it "doesn't work in the case of Instant Death."

 

Note that TWM models do not count as bike troops; if anything, they count as Calvary (see precedents that follow). The Calvary rules make no mention of toughness.

 

While they may function much like bike troops, they are not bike troops.

 

As precedents, Cannis and TWC both have raw toughness 5 (not T4(5)), and the bike marines in the codex have T4(5).

 

I think this is pretty cut and dry.

 

EDIT: I take it back.

 

P26 of the BRB, Instant Death Rule.

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items....When it comes to Instant Death, such bonuses do not count."

 

So I stand corrected. It's effectively T4(5). Cannis and TWC are exceptions. This post has been edited to reflect this.

[Niiai]

EDIT: I take it back.

 

P26 of the BRB, Instant Death Rule.

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items....When it comes to Instant Death, such bonuses do not count."

 

So I stand corrected. It's effectively T4(5). Cannis and TWC are exceptions. This post has been edited to reflect this.

 

No, do not take it back. Follow me here: Although the base rules are in the core rulebook, it can be overwritten by Codexes when spesified.

 

Thunder Wolf Mount ad +1 to the base caracteristicks of the model.

 

Although a bit vague, that is the spesification that overules the core rulebook. The evidence is in the caracteristicks of the thunderwolf cavalery, and even more so, in the stats of canis the wolf born. In canis entery it spesifies that he is riding a thunderwolf and that those stats have been included in his profile. His profile does not have a 4(5) thoughnes, but a flat (5). If the thunderwolf mounts do not add a "real" point his stats would be 4(5) or 5(6) (the last seems very unlickly since he would be the only SM who does not have 4 in thoughnes.)

[thade]

No, do not take it back. Follow me here: Although the base rules are in the core rulebook, it can be overwritten by Codexes when spesified.

 

I am fully aware that a Codex can override the rules in the BRB. Whenever it does, it says so.

 

As the Thunderwolf Mount is Wargear, it is covered by the BRB Instant Death Rule. As the Thunderwolf Mount does not address this directly, then it becomes subject to it.

 

The +1 Toughness does not apply to instant death, so a Powerfist can kill your Wolf Lord if he's mounted.

[Grey Mage]

Why not? The evidence i presentet seems pretty clear to me. Until it gets an erata it does not have a 4(5) thoughnes. The evidence as statet above is that it isn't there, and that is what the instant death rule looks for.

 

The lack of an entry for a Wolf Lord or WGBL with a TWM is not evidence that its T5. Fangir doesnt count for beans because hes not a TWM- hes Fangir, the biggest Fenrisian Wolf in several thousands of years.

 

There is no evidence of an example anywhere in C:SW. So that leaves us with a peice of wargear that should give one T5, but because of generic rules gives us T 4(5). I hope the FAQ fixes this, but until then I just keep my WLs away from Powerfists- wich is a good policy anyways.

[Frosty the Pyro]

EDIT: I take it back.

 

P26 of the BRB, Instant Death Rule.

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items....When it comes to Instant Death, such bonuses do not count."

 

So I stand corrected. It's effectively T4(5). Cannis and TWC are exceptions. This post has been edited to reflect this.

 

No, do not take it back. Follow me here: Although the base rules are in the core rulebook, it can be overwritten by Codexes when spesified.

 

Thunder Wolf Mount ad +1 to the base caracteristicks of the model.

 

Although a bit vague, that is the spesification that overules the core rulebook. The evidence is in the caracteristicks of the thunderwolf cavalery, and even more so, in the stats of canis the wolf born. In canis entery it spesifies that he is riding a thunderwolf and that those stats have been included in his profile. His profile does not have a 4(5) thoughnes, but a flat (5). If the thunderwolf mounts do not add a "real" point his stats would be 4(5) or 5(6) (the last seems very unlickly since he would be the only SM who does not have 4 in thoughnes.)

 

There is a space marine with 6 toughness, its lysander I think, but I could be wrong. However Thade is correct that a dex rule only counter the BRB if it says so. For example the Tyranid codex has biomorphs wich directly state that they increase the base profile and circumvent the normal T(T+x) system. Untill they errata it, people are correct that the characters that have the option of a thunderwolf mount are 4(5). Any other use is a house rule, though one I would probly accept.

[rat of vengence]

There is a space marine with 6 toughness, its lysander I think, but I could be wrong. However Thade is correct that a dex rule only counter the BRB if it says so. For example the Tyranid codex has biomorphs wich directly state that they increase the base profile and circumvent the normal T(T+x) system. Untill they errata it, people are correct that the characters that have the option of a thunderwolf mount are 4(5). Any other use is a house rule, though one I would probly accept.

Chaplain Cassius is T6.

 

I agree with the 4(5) too. Sorry dude, but no.

 

RoV

[Morticon]

Im in the 5 flat camp.

 

If you quote rules, please quote all of em-

 

You said...

 

P26 of the BRB, Instant Death Rule.

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items....When it comes to Instant Death, such bonuses do not count."

 

But you conveniently left out:

"In these cases two values will be shown for the Toughness cahracteristic of the model, one of which is in brackets. Use the lowest value for working out instant death".

 

Additionally, as mentioned, bikes are mentioned specifically regarding instant death.

 

Additionally, all thunderwolf models and characters set a precedent for the model being flat 5 - not 4(5).

Any assumptions it is 4(5) would be baseless conjecture.

Nowhere does it tell you that you must bracket the bikes additional toughness - but we use the precedent set by all the dexs that use bikers and follow the rules in the BGB.

We have to do the same with the wolves.

 

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit dismissive but this is open and shut for me, personally.

Take from it what you wish.

[Niiai]

I think it is quite clear. The clearification is "[...are added to his base carachteristisks." Shure it could also say "These spesificaly bypass the instant death rule."

 

Normaly, I would interpid like those in the 4(5) group does, but the fact that Canis and the Thunderwolf cavlary does not have 4(5), but have a flat 5 means that "[...are added to his base caracteristiskcs." actualy do bypass the instant death rule.

 

"LOL what a n00b, how can he claim this? He is a bad haxorz!" I hear you ask yourself.

 

If you read the whol instant deathrule (Like Morticon did) you se "In these cases two values will be shown for the Toughness cahracteristic of the model, one of which is in brackets. Use the lowest value for working out instant death."

 

Does Canis and Thunderwolf Cavalery have a thoughnes in a bracket? No.

Are they Marines with a thudnerwolf underneath himself, AKA, has the thunderwolf wargear? Yes.

Should other caracters with a thunderwolf upgrade have a bracket? No.

 

 

I agree with you if you mean that is badly worded, and should be told more explicit like the Tyranid exampel, but the fact is that it does not contain the Bracet that the instant detah rule actualy care about.

[Grey Mage]

Well the other part is that further on pg. 26 it states that the profile will show the parenthetical toughness value. Some are interpreting that as "if GW wanted it to not count towards ID then they would have put a 4(5) profile up for it".

[thade]

Im in the 5 flat camp.

 

If you quote rules, please quote all of em-

 

You said...

 

P26 of the BRB, Instant Death Rule.

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items....When it comes to Instant Death, such bonuses do not count."

 

But you conveniently left out:

"In these cases two values will be shown for the Toughness cahracteristic of the model, one of which is in brackets. Use the lowest value for working out instant death".

 

Additionally, as mentioned, bikes are mentioned specifically regarding instant death.

 

Additionally, all thunderwolf models and characters set a precedent for the model being flat 5 - not 4(5).

Any assumptions it is 4(5) would be baseless conjecture.

Nowhere does it tell you that you must bracket the bikes additional toughness - but we use the precedent set by all the dexs that use bikers and follow the rules in the BGB.

We have to do the same with the wolves.

 

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit dismissive but this is open and shut for me, personally.

Take from it what you wish.

 

Grey Mage has addressed this several times in both of these threads.

 

You are correct in that, if we have a precedent - ie somebody with Thunderwolf Mount listed as WARGEAR - then if it's T5 and not T4(5) it's clear and done.

 

The problem is that we have *no such precedent.*

 

Cannis Wolfborn does not have Thunderwolf Mount as Wargear.

Thunderwolf Calvary does not have Thunderwolf Mount as Wargear.

 

We have no precedent.

 

Thus, as the rules in the Wargear section for TWM do not say "Ignores FNP", and we have no example entry, then we are at an impasse.

 

I would love for my TWM Wolf Lord to be T5 so I could take Sage of the Warrior Born without fear. But without an example, then I reside on my ruling. The Wargear entry says nothing about it, so the +1 to toughness doesn't work against Instant Death. Until the FAQ comes out, this may be a "Grey Area" dispute. Personally I think T4(5) is the most fair way to go about it, as it assumes less power and has a precedent (taking a bike as Wargear is something we DO have examples for).

 

If only the TWC had TWM as Wargear, we'd be all set with T5.

[Morticon]

Grey Mage has addressed this several times in both of these threads.

 

You are correct in that, if we have a precedent - ie somebody with Thunderwolf Mount listed as WARGEAR - then if it's T5 and not T4(5) it's clear and done.

 

The problem is that we have *no such precedent.*

 

Cannis Wolfborn does not have Thunderwolf Mount as Wargear.

Thunderwolf Calvary does not have Thunderwolf Mount as Wargear.

 

We have no precedent.

 

Thus, as the rules in the Wargear section for TWM do not say "Ignores FNP", and we have no example entry, then we are at an impasse.

 

I would love for my TWM Wolf Lord to be T5 so I could take Sage of the Warrior Born without fear. But without an example, then I reside on my ruling. The Wargear entry says nothing about it, so the +1 to toughness doesn't work against Instant Death. Until the FAQ comes out, this may be a "Grey Area" dispute. Personally I think T4(5) is the most fair way to go about it, as it assumes less power and has a precedent (taking a bike as Wargear is something we DO have examples for).

 

If only the TWC had TWM as Wargear, we'd be all set with T5.

 

I get what you mean now. (I assume you meant "ignores instant death" ? Not "ignores FNP" tho yeah?)

 

Another thing I do agree with is that a FAQ is definitely needed.

 

Strict RAW I think you may could argue that yes, its a wargear upgrade and therefore automatically falls into the provisor of page 26.

 

However, with the stat increase of Canis and the TW cavalry I personally don't believe this is the way it should be played (or was intended...but we all know what wrath the "I" word brings :) ).

 

I'd happily let any wolf opponent use that wargear as 5 base.

[Veldrik]

Thunderwolf pg 62

adds ... to his profile[/b

 

Canis pg 54

firstly note that Fangir's entry has Thunderwold as a proper noun, which GW uses when refering to an upgraded wargear, where lower case is usually a description.

Canis has an improved profile as a...

The characteristic bonuses are included in his profile.

 

Note thats all three of these refer to increasing the PROFILE with no additional notes.

 

Now lets look at bikes - ie the examples of (4)5 toughness

Bike riders benefit from the protection of their bike, which increases their toughness characteristic by 1.

so the result is toughness 5

this is then followed by

Note that this increase does not affect the model's Toughness for the purposes of instant death (see page 26).

pg 53

Notice how the instant death is a note in addition to the increased toughness, SPECIFICALLY for bikes.

 

Thunderwolves are CAVALRY which is a varient of INFANTRY, not BIKES - so the bike upgrade rules do NOT apply to Thunderwolf mounted people.

 

So up to this point:

Thunderwolf: toughness 5

Bikers: toughness (4)5

 

Then we goto page 26

Some models can gain improvemens to their toughness by using wargear items like bikes, Chaos Marks, etc. When it comes to instant death, such bonuses do not count (ie riding a bike won't save you from being obliterated by a lascannon blast!). In these cases two values will be shown for the Toughness characteristic of the model one of which is in brackets. Use the lowest value for working out instant death.

 

And no where in the (hard cover) rule book for 5th ed except under the bikes section as a foot note, does it say that if you increase toughness, you have to place a bracketed number. It's only mentioned for the bike.

 

Adding to profile is to the base value aswell.

 

Using an item adds it only for the time the item is being used (so if you have a storm bolter and a powerfist doesn't mean you shoot str8 bullets).

However carrying a thundershield always gives you the ward save of 3+ as you can't turn it on and off

Same for mounts, yuo cant (unless speceified) dismount and mount, leaving your toughness as 5.

[Veldrik]

also, they may change or clarify this in an FAQ, and give the base stats to TWC and to canis, but as it stands, if read directly from the Codex Space Wolves and from the Hard Cover Rulebook, then its flat strength 5 because it does not specifically state you have two values like bikes - because they are cavalry.

[thade]

I get what you mean now. (I assume you meant "ignores instant death" ? Not "ignores FNP" tho yeah?)

 

I do in fact mean that, yes. The "Ingores FNP" thing came from...well, if you refer to my recent post in Amicus, you'll see where my head was. =)

 

 

@ Veldrik:

Fluff does not directly imply rules, as much as we might like them too. So even if the fluff entry uses the words "Thunderwolf Mount", if it's not listed under Wargear for the model then it is not Wargear...it's just part of the model.

 

The Instant Death rule uses Bikes as an example, it is not specifically for bikes.

 

My original argument for T5 stems from your own arguments: that they are Calvary and not Bike models, however I do note that it says "Adds to profile" and that it is "Wargear" and so if it doesn't either 1. state that it disregards the Instant Death rule or 2. exist in an example profile which we may use as a precedent, we fall on BRB which says that Wargear increases to Toughness do not work against Instant Death.

 

Again, Canis and TWC do not have TWM listed as Wargear, so that they have hard T5 means nothing for our argument (much as it pains me). Also note that the TWM entry does not say that the model becomes Calvary when he has it. While it may seem obvious or silly, if it doesn't say it, it doesn't happen. =\

 

What this boils down to is, we can't claim without question that it's hard T5, so it could be judged unfair/cheating to do so. Clear it with your local club and we'll wait for the FAQ.

 

EDIT: Typos

[Veldrik]

however the bikes explicityl say that in addition to adding 1 to toughness it also adds a second value in brackets.

 

and under instant death, it says that it MUST have two values.

 

so if you don't have two values, the instand death rules DOES NOT apply.

 

whether or not it is fair doesn't change what the rules say.

[thade]

however the bikes explicityl say that in addition to adding 1 to toughness it also adds a second value in brackets.

 

and under instant death, it says that it MUST have two values.

 

so if you don't have two values, the instand death rules DOES NOT apply.

 

whether or not it is fair doesn't change what the rules say.

 

I appreciate your conviction, but I'm still not convinced.

 

The bike entry in the BRB (p53) says "Note that this increase does not affect the model's Toughness for the purposes of instant death", a direct reference to the Instant Death rule (which the TWM entry is lacking). Typically, however, when a piece of Wargear defies or ignores a BRB rule, it states so and in what way. It's more required that it states that it breaks a rule, and much less required that it states that it conforms to a rule. We expect things to conform to a rule unless told explicitly otherwise. We are not told explicitly, therefore we've no ground to stand on for our T5.

[Grey Mage]

also, they may change or clarify this in an FAQ, and give the base stats to TWC and to canis, but as it stands, if read directly from the Codex Space Wolves and from the Hard Cover Rulebook, then its flat strength 5 because it does not specifically state you have two values like bikes - because they are cavalry.

Nothing to do with the unit type man, its all about wether or not its from "Wargear".

[avatar8481]

You're never going to get people to agree until it's FAQed.

 

See? It's unclear enough that everybody can be convinced they're right.

[Ferro]

What about the other example provided as a Toughness upgrade, Chaos Marks? How do they work?

[thade]

What about the other example provided as a Toughness upgrade, Chaos Marks? How do they work?

 

Not against Instant Death. =) Which is more fodder for the T4(5) argument.

[Niiai]

Well, although I am convinced I am right I am starting to se why this has to be FAQ because people have a realy split wiuv on thi. (I still say that wolf riders are inecent until proven wrong. And are hence flat 5, not 4(5), since all evidence points towards it but it is not 100%, it is just not verified. I only play casual anyway, so it is not so big a deal, but is kindo a big job converting a cold one using green stuf, ironspikes and glue like I am doing just to find out that it is a "dud".)

 

You mentioned the Chaos Marks. I read it on another forum that it is interesting to note that Abbadon has a chaos mark, has two thoughneses in his profile, yet he is imune to instant death. (I do not have the book with me but I imadgine it is ethernal warrior?) Anyway, there might be other things that care about thoughnes other than instant death.

 

Chaos Marks are worded "gains +1 to thougnes. Like the thoughnes bonus from riding a bike, this mark does not affect...bla bla bla...instant death" I think +1 thoughnes is a bit bad worded.

 

The bikes ad +1 to their (the riders) thoughnes characteristick. (And goes on to say that this does not help for instant death.) Is there a very hard to find rule that covers profile and characteristiskc? What does the Tyranid upgrade say?

 

On page 7 anyway, it says that "Each model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that list the value of his characteristicks." It is a bit of rule layoring. But Profile determins characteristiscs: and +1 to profile means that it increases his characteristsikcs. It seas earlier (page 6) that certainw argear can increase model's characteristsicks posetivly or negativly. It does not mention anything of adding to the profile.

 

How ever the isntant detah rule says that "...some models can inprove there thoughnes by using wargear items like bikes, mark of caos etc. When it comes to instant death sutch bonuses does not apply." I think this is a bit badly worded. It has also no Erata (I have looked.) It seas that some models can inprove there thoughness, and that sutch bonuses does not aply. The thunder wolf wargear improves the models profile (Witch in turns tells the models caracteristicks.) This may be just a simplefied wording by the author (bungling them all together to save space instead of writing "to the thre diferent caharacteristsicks.)

 

What I realy want to know is the wording on the Tyranid upgrade. If it says "profile" then it does not count towards instant death. (Instant death checks for bonuses to thoughnes added after the profile says what characteristicks the unit has.)

 

do anybody have the Tyranid Codex?

 

- Niiai

 

 

 

also, they may change or clarify this in an FAQ, and give the base stats to TWC and to canis, but as it stands, if read directly from the Codex Space Wolves and from the Hard Cover Rulebook, then its flat strength 5 because it does not specifically state you have two values like bikes - because they are cavalry.

Nothing to do with the unit type man, its all about wether or not its from "Wargear".

 

Hehe, no it has to do with the wording of the rules. :)

 

 

EDIT: The more I read the rules the more I think I have found the glitch I am looking for.(And I am quite proud of this on that I should realy be doing my universety studies but this is more important kind of way.) Look now: :)

 

Instant Death exludes wargear that increase the thoughnes caracteristicks. The rules quite many times states the word thoughnes characteristiskcs.

 

Now the wolf adds to his Profile. It never mentions the word characteristsick. The profile determines his characteristiskcs in the game. The instant death rule does not care about it. (And yes I am willing to lay this debate dead if a) we get it confirmed from the tyranid book -if- the wording is correct. Or if :D we find some other wargear that imrpoves the profile (not characteristick) and that still uses a 1rst(2nd ) thoughnes value. :)