Drop Pods

[gettothegone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when I read something about pods a while back, they were always assumed to have doors down when they landed.

 

I've read a few places now that people are leaving the petals up and fully blocking LOS to anything behind it, citing there are no rules in the current codex saying that the doors are blown open and never closed again "IE, BT Codex p.22".

 

I don't have my Marine dex on me at the moment but I've never checked assuming that everyone plays with the doors down.... but is there an entry stating this in there, or does the omission of this rule provide a really really cheese loophole for blocking things off?

[Brother Santios]

I could be wrong here but i was under the impression that once the doors opened it became an 'open topped' stationary vehicle .. i think anyone trying to claim the doors close for a line of sight advantage are cheese monkeys

[gettothegone]

See, I agree with you that it should count as being open, but just because it counts as open topped, doesn't mean the doors aren't closed. Just means you roll for EZ pen chart goodness.

 

I wouldn't use this tactic because while I do enjoy a good competitive game, this takes a large chomp down on the gouda platter.

[Starblayde]

I could be wrong here but i was under the impression that once the doors opened it became an 'open topped' stationary vehicle .. i think anyone trying to claim the doors close for a line of sight advantage are cheese monkeys

It does become open topped, yes. And what's the betting that very same simian claims the 2" dismbarkation from the furthest point of the petal that's open and closest to where they want to go?

[Isiah]

Indeed I would have though the words "hatches are blown" would have been sufficient to imply they are more than temporarily opened :devil:.

 

See, I agree with you that it should count as being open, but just because it counts as open topped, doesn't mean the doors aren't closed.

 

But "once deployed the pod is no longer a sealed environment [...]" -- it becomes open-topped by becoming unsealed ie the doors being blown. It seems there is no mechanic or rule for un-open-topping the pod by resealing it once it has been deployed. I take this to mean that hatches can't be closed for any reason.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Tachnicaly the model is the model, and weather the hatches are up or down makes no difference. However you can also use the "decoratoin" rules for people trying to block LOS with them. Hatches are decoration like the banner on a sergent, not hull, you may competely ignore them when determing cover and LOS. You may not deploy within 2" of the petals, again because they are not part of the hull.

 

Essentaly people who are vuagely rule savy will keep the petals up to block LOS, people who are VERY rules savy will know that it doesnt matter anyway.

[chapter master 454]

The problem lies in the fact alot of people mistake the petal doors as the hull, the hull is the solid frame which holds the doors in place. You don't see people dropping the ramps on their land raiders to try and cheese the ramp for extra range because it's a door and not the hull. The next problem with the petals down or up is LoS, if petals are up this creates a large LoS blocker but if petals are down, form cover for infantry to hide behind easily. Put it this was: it's one of the most annoying models to have because of the vast grey area that would be equal to the atlantic ocean so just agree before hand about the petals and it's all good!

[Commander Sasha]

Am hoping Santa brings me a couple of DPs; I have a homemade one for my Dread which was based loosely on a shipping container!

To solve the doors up(cheesy LOS block) vs doors down(preposterous deployment claim), and also to avoid another problem that I've seen, namely doors propped halfway up by terrain/models, I'm considering building it with doors absent, as though they have been blown off entirely, like a canopy after an ejector seat. Thoughts?

[gettothegone]

I remember where I saw the rule about open / closed petals. It was at a tournament which had its own form of FAQ about certain things.

 

I just wish they'd FAQ Marines.

 

I'll play with doors open always, I'm just looking for arguments or rules to argue against it if anyone had any. Ultimately I think we all agree that its a grey area.

[Isiah]

Am hoping Santa brings me a couple of DPs; I have a homemade one for my Dread which was based loosely on a shipping container!

To solve the doors up(cheesy LOS block) vs doors down(preposterous deployment claim), and also to avoid another problem that I've seen, namely doors propped halfway up by terrain/models, I'm considering building it with doors absent, as though they have been blown off entirely, like a canopy after an ejector seat. Thoughts?

 

Why preposterous?

[rat of vengence]

He might mean when people claim the doors count as vehicle, so no enemy within 1" of the deployed doors. Pure cheese, and wrong too.

 

RoV

[Wayward]

Am hoping Santa brings me a couple of DPs; I have a homemade one for my Dread which was based loosely on a shipping container!

To solve the doors up(cheesy LOS block) vs doors down(preposterous deployment claim), and also to avoid another problem that I've seen, namely doors propped halfway up by terrain/models, I'm considering building it with doors absent, as though they have been blown off entirely, like a canopy after an ejector seat. Thoughts?

 

I know I'll be magnetizing my pod doors. "Hatches being blown" sounds a lot more like detachable doors than openable doors :)

[Mal]

I know this isn't really applicable to a rules query, but the fluff behind the drop pod doors is that they are hinged at the base of the hull and they have a small explosive charge at the top, the rest of the hatch is magnetically sealed. So when the hatch is 'blown' the explosive charge blows and throws the door open with strong force, this helps for when the hatch lands against an obsticle, the explosive hatch is sufficent to clear enough room for the troops to disembark... it may not be pretty but it gets the job done.

[Morticon]

There are no rule ways to cover this.

 

Additionally, people are still sitting with scratch built models that do not open.

 

Its up to your gaming group to decide what is in the spirit of the game. Cause, honestly - what you gonna do if hes glued his models together? Claim its see through?

 

There are two ways to play this I feel.

 

One, is to to allow it, but not allow shooting of the DP weapon.

 

Fluff wise, i dont think its a stretch of the imagination to do a preliminary scan of the surroundings and choose to not blow certain doors. However, blowing no doors is a bit dumb - but only fluff wise.

[Ming]

To add hydrazine to the fire, go read the IA advanced drop pod deployment rules and convince everyone it is a great thing to use with opponents permission. In a pod-shell:

 

1. Pods begin to come down on your opponents turn (not yours).

2. Incoming pods can be shot at and destroyed (by certain types of units) as they come down in the (your opponents) shooting phase. They can scatter from the intended landing point.

3. They tank shock on landing and the doors pop open immediately after the opponents shooting phase. You can assume any infantry tank shocked run out of the way of the doors as they slam open.

4. Since the pod landed before your turn, you can disembark from them and then assault. Youur disembarking distance is just like a vehicle. Because of the pod doors, you can clearly get a squad out, shoot pistols/assault weapons, and then charge.

 

These are awesome rules and exactly convey how I think they could be used. Yes, you get to assault out of them. On the other hand, they can also be destroyed in flight. Pretty fair exchange of risk. There are more rules in the IA book.

 

Back to the regular rules - I'd say yes, doors stay open (if they open at all). Pod is open topped and immobile (has its own implications in some scenarios). Shooting a infantry unit through a pod gives the usual 4+ cover save. Vehicles obscured by the pod only get the 4+ save as per the normal 50% visual. If the pod doors are shut and you cannot agree on the save for the vehicle, dice it off.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed I would have though the words "hatches are blown" would have been sufficient to imply they are more than temporarily opened :woot:.

 

See, I agree with you that it should count as being open, but just because it counts as open topped, doesn't mean the doors aren't closed.

 

But "once deployed the pod is no longer a sealed environment [...]" -- it becomes open-topped by becoming unsealed ie the doors being blown. It seems there is no mechanic or rule for un-open-topping the pod by resealing it once it has been deployed. I take this to mean that hatches can't be closed for any reason.

However, theres no reason that they have to be mechanically opened to begin with. I dont like painting in the insides of vehicles- guess what, all my DPs are glued shut.

 

Tachnicaly the model is the model, and weather the hatches are up or down makes no difference. However you can also use the "decoratoin" rules for people trying to block LOS with them. Hatches are decoration like the banner on a sergent, not hull, you may competely ignore them when determing cover and LOS. You may not deploy within 2" of the petals, again because they are not part of the hull.

 

Essentaly people who are vuagely rule savy will keep the petals up to block LOS, people who are VERY rules savy will know that it doesnt matter anyway.

If they are closed they are part of the hull. Why? Because they are structure that makes up the majority of the figure and is part of the main "mass" of it. Or can you fire through the hatches of a landraider out the other side at the models there? What about with rhinos?

[Veldrik]

The Space Marines codex does say that the doors are blown and it stays that way. It also states it becomes opened topped.

 

My buddy at work and I had the discussion about deployment, and eventually after going through the rule book and the space marine codex and FAQs, it came down that deployment is within 2" of the HULL even though the pictures in the rulebook show the hatches.

 

However I think nearly everyone who uses drop pods, and even those who play against them suggest to glue the doors shut - that way you don't have to option to open them up, so they block LOS for things like drop podding your dreadnaught.

 

But that's not WYSIWYG, but neither is me using plastic beer schooners for a drop pod army.

 

You don't see people dropping the ramps on their land raiders to try and cheese the ramp for extra range because it's a door and not the hull.

I use to do this in 3rd ed when it was legal ;) and found out through the above "hatch vs hull" discussion that in 5th ed its hull :)

 

I also like how on an LR, we can put the side sponsons up front if we want a shooty truck, or the sponsons at the back if we expect to have alot of assault overflow and get the extra 2 inches of assault range.

[Grey Mage]

I dont know about you, but there are no charges on my DPs, I cannot blow the hatches.

 

A close DP is exactly what it looks like. A DP, thats DS onto the field and is staying their until it explodes or the game is over. Very simple.

[Ferro]

I'm sure I read somewhere that when the pod lands you must open the doors if possible unless terrain or enemy will be under them. And also something about being able to shoot through the open area of the pod... but I confess I can't find it in CSM or the FAQ... <scratch head>

 

I'm gunna take this thread sideways for a minute: Frosty my friend, I've got to call you on something:

Tachnicaly the model is the model, and weather the hatches are up or down makes no difference. However you can also use the "decoratoin" rules for people trying to block LOS with them. Hatches are decoration like the banner on a sergent, not hull, you may competely ignore them when determing cover and LOS. ....

Essentaly people who are vuagely rule savy will keep the petals up to block LOS, people who are VERY rules savy will know that it doesnt matter anyway.

 

It does matter. The 'decoration' rules you are referring to don't work like that. If all I can see is the sergeant's pretty banner, but not his head/body, then I'm not allowed to target him. Yet the banner is still a real physical object on the table and it does block LOS to things behind it, and may confer cover. Nothing in the game, nothing, is ignored for purposes of LOS or cover. That's what True LOS means.

 

Thus, with regards to Drop Pods, 'the model is the model, and whether the hatches are up or down' does make a difference. You know--because the model is the model. :)

 

If my opponent refused to open his doors, or had them glued shut, I'd be a little miffed but not much. I could adapt my own tactics to try to take advantage of the extra cover for my own army. A closed DP blocks LOS in both directions.

[Daeghrefn]

Simple solution - if the doors don't open, nothing can disembark. :yes:

Seeing as how things "must" disembark from the pod when it lands, that sounds like they are destroyed. Unless, of course, he is willing to admit that the doors are actually down, and targetting could be accomplished as if they were open on the model.

[Grey Mage]

Simple solution - if the doors don't open, nothing can disembark. :)

Seeing as how things "must" disembark from the pod when it lands, that sounds like they are destroyed. Unless, of course, he is willing to admit that the doors are actually down, and targetting could be accomplished as if they were open on the model.

Sorry, but doesnt work like that. Drop Pods are opentopped.... so you dont need any particular access point to get out.

 

Wich is good... since DPs dont list any access points anywhere.

 

Kinda like an ork Battlewagon actually... and no one tries to claim you can shoot through them while theyre opentopped. So why the hate on DPs? Because you think people shouldnt be able to block LOS with them?

 

Well show me a real rule then, instead of this "IMHO" stuff.

[Valerian]

Simple solution - if the doors don't open, nothing can disembark. :)

Seeing as how things "must" disembark from the pod when it lands, that sounds like they are destroyed. Unless, of course, he is willing to admit that the doors are actually down, and targetting could be accomplished as if they were open on the model.

 

I guess you can't deploy from your Rhinos then; most people certainly do not open the side doors or the double doors at the back.

 

According to the rules for disembarking a transport, leaving a Drop Pod works the same way. Since it is open-topped, just deploy your models anywhere within 2" of the hull; your ramps don't have to be down for it to be opentopped, it just is.

 

V

 

p.s. Ming, I really like those advanced rules from IA, pretty cool. However, I guess you couldn't use it with Drop Pod Assault, if you got the first turn, as there is no enemy shooting phase before that.

[Ramora]

I think trying to shoot through a DP is just stupid. It's like if some one tried to shoot between the legs of a Dread.. This is one of the biggest reason I hate TLoS. It makes 40k los/terrain rules just as silly as they were before.. ie not being able to see all the way through a 1" thick piece of forest and such. I glue my doors shut if you have a problem with that quit easy win for me.