Chaos Psychic Powers

[Legatus]

Someone put forward the claim in the "Gavs Codex Chaos" thread that while nearly all loyalist Codex Marine powers are usefull, Chaos Marines only have the Lash and nothing else. I spoke out in defense of Gift of Chaos, Wind of Chaos, Warp Time and Nurgle's Rott as viable and fun powers, but then unfortunately the Thread got closed due to the amount of off topic content.

 

I thought I would still make the case that these are usefull powers, that can even be combined (by Tzeentch Sorcerers) in neat ways.

 

 

Gift of Chaos:

Pretty much my vafourite. it can remove any T4 character on a roll of 5 or 6. That could be a Space Marine Captain or a Squad leader with power fist. The model is removed without any save and does not count as suffering wounds, so neither 3+ storm shield saves nor eternal warrior will help. If the Chaos player has a Spawn model available he could replace the enemy model with it, and against low S/T armies that will be fun, but in kill point missions he might decide not to place a Spawn.

I like this power for Night Lord Sorcerers because the possibility that his Characters are removed on one lucky die roll will actually worry the enemy player, making for a neat meta-NL-terror aspect.

Tzeentch Sorcerers can use this power twice per turn (according to FaQ), creating additional Spawns or just getting a second try in case the first time was not successful.

The downside is that the power has to be used at the start of the Sorcerers turn, so he cannot himself manouver close to his intended target and then use it.

 

 

Wind of Chaos:

An AP2 flamer. Nuff said. It "only" wounds on 4+, and does not have a Strenght value of 5 or more, but Tzeentch Sorcerers can combine it with "Warp Time" to increase the number of wounded models from 50% to 75%, making it better than S5 against T4. Other than the Marine "Avenger" pendant this power can harm Terminators as well.

 

 

Warp Time:

Aside from augmenting "Wind of Chaos", this power mainly boosts a Sorcerer's or Daemn Prince's combat ability. It increases the average amount of wounds a Sorcerer will inflict against MEQ on the charge from 1.6 to 3.1 (Lord with Lightning Claws: 2.4), against enemy Characters (WS5+) without charging from 1 wound to 2.25 wounds. This power can be used in both players turns, so the Sorcerer can have it active at all times (provided the enemy has no psyker defense).

Tzeentch Sorcerers can use this power in combination with their Forceweapons, ensuring to get at least some wounds through and then frying the enemy Characters brain.

Daemon Princes with this power become more lethal as well, especially Tzeentch princes with their improved invulnerable save and the boosted combat abilities are quite strong. Without charging they will on average inflict 3.5 wounds instead of 2.2.

 

 

Nurgle's Rot:

A fun "AoE" power that is most useful against armies with large units of infantry with low saves. It is used in the shooting phase, so it can be used after the Sorcerer deep struck, disembarked out of a transport or having jumped into position, so it is possible to get a decent number of enemy models within range. In previous Codices this power allways wounded on a roll of 6, but now it has a Strength value of 3, which means Orks and Genestealers are wounded on 5+ and Eldar, Guard and Gaunts are wounded on 4+. The power can be used even if the sorcerer himself is in combat, which is neat since then the enemy models will be closely packed. It is a satisfying experience to be swarmed by a mass of bodies but then eradicate 30% or the Orks or 40-50% of the DE/IG/Gaunts just with your Sorcerer's power.

While the added Toughness of the Mark of Nurgle will already grant the Sorcerer some improved resilience, he should still not charge into the enemy hordes by himself. A squad of Plague Marines (or Terminators) should make for a decent protection, and he does not have to use the power as soon or as often as possible. Just see if there are good opportunities.

[the jeske]

Someone put forward the claim in the "Gavs Codex Chaos" thread that while nearly all loyalist Codex Marine powers are usefull, Chaos Marines only have the Lash and nothing else.

and warp time . I said it. and it was about use of sorc in chaos lists. A DP can work even without a psychic power[what considering the costs DP and Sorc , tells a lot of how good the sorc is].

 

 

Gift of Chaos:

too small range . If the power doesnt work [and a lot of armies do run anti psyker stuff +the chance of +5 isnt even 50%] the sorc will get charged , without bodyguard this means death. with bodyguard it means either raptors or bikes. this means runing a sub par FA choice , run for a sub par HQ to use a short range power . To make it really effective one has to run 2 sorc with same power and target same unit. Huge investment of points to have a chance to remove 2 , maybe 3 units per game. + there is the problem of wide use of mecha list , what offten means that actually seeing a target may not be so obvious.

 

 

An AP2 flamer. Nuff said. It "only" wounds on 4+, and does not have a Strenght value of 5 or more, but Tzeentch Sorcerers can combine it with "Warp Time" to increase the number of wounded models from 50% to 75%, making it better than S5 against T4. Other than the Marine "Avenger" pendant this power can harm Terminators as well.

again range means that the sorc has to get real close . same bike/raptor problem . to get warp time and breath you have to run mot what makes him cost a lot of points . and what happens if you get off warp time set up a unit to flame and breath gets stoped by hood/rune staff ??

Nurgle's Rot:

yes it can be good . on DPs in a nurgle build where one runs warp time and the other one runs rot ,to help with anti horde and help with anti horde. But it works only because A DPs are far better hth units then sorc [str/number of attacks ,not getting killed by fists] and only because most nurgle builds lack anti horde. But not on sorc.

[Legatus]

and warp time . I said it.

Yes you did. My bad. I was only checking the later statement, where you literally wrote "Lash, and nothing else".

 

too small range . If the power doesnt work [and a lot of armies do run anti psyker stuff +the chance of +5 isnt even 50%] the sorc will get charged , without bodyguard this means death. with bodyguard it means either raptors or bikes. this means runing a sub par FA choice , run for a sub par HQ to use a short range power . To make it really effective one has to run 2 sorc with same power and target same unit. Huge investment of points to have a chance to remove 2 , maybe 3 units per game. + there is the problem of wide use of mecha list , what offten means that actually seeing a target may not be so obvious.

I have personally often used a Sorcerer in Rhino (but I wouldn't consider running him with Bikers or Raptors a problem). If I put one HQ with the squad anyway, it can as well be a Sorcerer, and the power can be a great asset. It worked for me in some games, and it worked via enemy Sorcerers against me in others. You might not roll high enough when you wish for it. You might fail a morale test for a squad in a dire situation. You might miss with both your squad's Meltas. Such is the dice game of 40K. Turning the enemy commander into a Spawn? Priceless.

The Sorcerer can still fight in HtH and might do more than just remove 2-3 models via Gift of Chaos. However, if the model he removes happens to be the enemy Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist that will greatly change the odds in his favour, not to mention if he removes an enemy HQ. When he is faced with Tyranids, while you generally might want to avoid the big nasties with your Sorcerer, if it cannot be helped then he has a 1/6 chance to turn that Carnifex or Hive Tyranit into a Spawn, or to simply remove him from play. These are not odds I would base a battle plan on, but the ability to remoe a monstrous Creature on a straight roll of 6 is not too bad.

 

again range means that the sorc has to get real close . same bike/raptor problem . to get warp time and breath you have to run mot what makes him cost a lot of points . and what happens if you get off warp time set up a unit to flame and breath gets stoped by hood/rune staff ??

Then hopefully your Sorcerer and his Squad are within assault range? :lol: As I said above, sometimes you need that Melta shot to hit, or you need to pass a morale or pinning test. Sometimes you wont roll what you need.

 

yes it can be good . on DPs in a nurgle build where one runs warp time and the other one runs rot ,to help with anti horde and help with anti horde. But it works only because A DPs are far better hth units then sorc [str/number of attacks ,not getting killed by fists] and only because most nurgle builds lack anti horde. But not on sorc.

Again, if I put one HQ with one of my squads anyway, it might as well be a Sorcerer. You do not neccessarily have to manouver just so you can set up the power. Manouver with the unit to try to achieve what they need to do at that time, and if the opportunity arises, use Nurgle's Rot to clear some space.

For the 15 points you pay for Nurgle's Rot, the Sorcerer has the ability to remove 1 in 9 Marines while he is in combat with them, which while not awesome is nonetheless kind of neat.

[chillin]

Well WT is obviously good, MUCH better on DP IMO.

WoC can be devastating when combined with wings, but yes you have to be in flamer range.

IMO doombolt is underestimated, and is a good pwr for it's cheap cost.

GoC, you basicly have to be in hth to use it and then you are betting everything on rolling a 5 or 6 (33% chance), not good enough for me.

Rot, never tried it, don't run nurgle, can't comment.

BoC, 1 24" str.8 shot. meh, I am not impressed. not really that usefull against much.

.

While I think some of the chaos pwrs are usefull, you would have a hard time argueing that they were as good as some of the s/m ones.

But the biggest difference in csm sorc's and s/m libby's is that a libby protects his army from psy attack. A sorc can't protect his army (or even himself) from psy attacks of enemies ;) . And that is huge, and for the libby to come in cheaper... :angry:

[Moress]

From my own personal experiences, Warp Time is the best psycic power, hands down imo (I run a undivided themed army, so I rarely ever use lash). Warp Time works wonder of the Daemon Prince, and I have started using a WT sorc over my chaos lord lately, though with the risk of hurting your self, though small the chance may be, and the potential for anti psyker stuff, I've been toying with a Khorne lord with 2xLC's the past few games.

 

Gift of Chaos is a fun ability, and imo should only be used in fun lists. If your looking for a competative power, this one isn't for you. In my fun list I like to run a MoT sorc with the previously mentioned Khorne lord along with 4 termies in a Land Raider. The LR's huge size helps extend the reach of GoC. The termies help nicely in that setup because they tend to soak up all the wounds while the sorc (hopefully) spawns the enemy HQ, and lord/sorc kills off most MEQs at I5, then hopefully the termies can handle any thing else left. The nice thing to also remember about this power is, it's not a shooting power, so you can technically spawn two different squad members, and charge a third one.

 

Winds of Chaos I can't really say much for. In theory, it would be wicked sweet having a sorc/DP with wings MoT, WT, and WoC, but that is super expensive. I think from a competative stand point, it's better to just have a winged DP with just WT and possibly MoN. From a purely fun perspective, go for it, I'm sure it would be loads of fun, though one of my personal gripes with taking uber shooty attacks on my HQ's (espcially a sorc who's probalby gonna have a retine), is that you may kill all the models in your charge range, which is bad news bears for your DP/sorc and freinds who are now left out in the open.

 

Nurgle's rot is one of those things I don't really use since I run undivided, but in theory, it's a good ability if you lack AI really badly, though imo I'd rather take WT anyway since you can use it in your turn and your opponents turn.

[Brother Nihm]

For me the question is, what does a Psychic power/Sorceror bring to the table.

 

Gift of Chaos - 30 points (without the mark) for something that rarely works, and when it does it's often a detriment to me (free KP). Once in a blue moon it can do away with a powerfist sarge or similar but, I can't plan anything around that. Had it been a 24" shooting attack instead, I might consider taking it.

 

Wind of Chaos - it's decent, though not exactly amazing for its point costs. How many times do you get to use it per battle? My personal best is three, and that has happened only once. As mentioned earlier it truly shines on MoT'ed Sorcerors/DPs (with movement upgrades).

 

Warp Time - I've lost track of the times I've had to listen to the you-must-reroll-every-die argument. Otherwise it's a fantastic power and fits its point costs. Basically, all that it does is make a DP more killy. It doesn't do that much for a Sorceror in comparison. Especially not if your Sorceror isn't Marked by Tzeentch.

 

Nurgle's Rot - 35 points (mark + power) for a low strength, 6" Area of Effect attack than can be used in Close Combat (the only good thing about it), I'm not impressed. On a Sorceror it blows. Can I get the Pandemic power from the older codex instead - please? B)

 

Doombolt - an all-round decent power for its point costs.

 

Lash of Submission - doesn't work vs mecha (hello 5th edition?), doesn't work reliably vs anti-psych wargear/abilities, is overcosted.

 

Bolt of Change - a 25 pt Krak missile with half range? (AP 1 though) no thank you.

 

 

I wouldn't call Lash of Submission the only viable power we have, far from it. We do however lack in the Psyker department.

 

Also,

Apart from a fluff-related 'feel', cool conversion opportunities, and variety, a Sorceror brings nothing to the table that you cannot find cheaper and better elsewhere in the list. I hope that will be addressed the next time around.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Nehekhare]

Warptime + WoC + wings is the way in my opinion. range is not really an argument, because you actually WANT your tooled up character in assault range.

[minigun762]

IMO doombolt is underestimated, and is a good pwr for it's cheap cost.

 

Agreed, I think its a steal at 10 points and the only reason not to use it is that Warptime is more useful (and more expensive).

That being said, it does find its way into my lists more often then not and I think its THE choice for an Undivided Sorcerer in an army, since even with Warptime they can't match the overall killing power of a Daemon Prince ** but you're still BS5.

 

**Hmmm lets test that, WT Sorcerer vs naked Daemon Prince

 

vs MEQ (no charge)

Sorcerer = 4 attacks = 3.56 hits = 2.67 wounds x chance NOT to fail Psychic Test (91.6%) = 2.45 dead Marines

Daemon Prince = 4 attacks = 2.66 hits = 2.22 wounds = 2.22 dead Marines

 

Hmm Sorcerer wins actually, I'm surprised.

[Sception]

Except that you have to factor in the chance of failing a psy test, or having it stopped by anti-psy gear. And the prince can take WT as well.

 

I run a sorcerer with doombolt in casual games, because it's the closest approximation of my old Undivided Lord with Kai Gun - though I may try out a Tzeentch daemon weapon lord at some point. The doombolt sorc has been pretty decent in a casual setting, though I wouldn't want to take him to a tournament game.

 

 

In general, I think princes beat out sorcerers for competitive games regardless, so arguing about what psychic powers are viable for a sorcerer seems to be a non-starter to me. That said, I do agree that Lash, Warp Time, and Rot all seem playable in a tournament setting. Outside of that, Doombolt, Gift, and wind all seem playable. I'm not sure exactly what the point of bolt of change is, though. Even in an all 1ksons army, it seems to me that vehicles would provide better anti-tank options then that.

[Corpse.]

#1 Lash of Torment

#2 Warptime

#3 Wind of Chaos

#4 Doombolt

#5 Bolt of Change

#6 Gift of Chaos

 

Lash makes great kills and early smashes or tactical pushes. Purely a combo power used with other units to rail it through, a prince with wings for first turn assault has a narrow margin of being hurt hard with T5 3+ 5++ if you are forced to first turn assault something rough.

 

Warptime makes great melee, and rerolls for wind of chaos and doombolt. Doombolt can be a staggering annoyance if used at range with hitting on 2+, but its rarely seen, but is cheap enough to consider though on a tzeentch caster.

 

Bolt of change is a good power, costly but still a decent power to slap things with AP1 and 2+ to hit chance. Seeing a prince use this to kill a rhino then charge its contents made to be somewhat higher chance then using wind of chaos. 2+ to hit then 3+ to penetrate.

 

Gift of chaos is the last, but not the least IMO. Having seen some crazy things happen and having spammed it myself among 5 sorcerers in a single game wiping out a bunch of grots turning them into spawns that wiped my orky opponent, I can see its supreme potential and question myself if I should not spam it in my daemon army as boon of mutation (BoM is superior). With BoM on the scribes having eaten up a carnifex one game, impressed me enough.

 

Just my take. None of them are useless or pointless, its just a matter of situational uses and the outcome.

[JamesI]

The only powers I ever use are

 

Doombolt (for cheapness on TSon Aspiring sorcerors)

Warptime/Wind of Chaos combo (on winged princes or disk of tzeentched Sorcerors). Sure its expensive, but it can kill a ton of models. Plus warptime makes the model really good in close combat (even the sorceror).

 

Don't care for Gift or Bolt of Change. Gift is too likely to do nothing, even if it gets through psychic defense.

 

Never tried Lash because I don't play Slaanesh.

[Spacefrisian]

Lash is overrated and i actually laugh when my opponent takes it, he has wasted points on something that isn't working in my oppinion. Mech being a reason.

[Moress]

I'm gonna have to respectuflly disagree with you on Lash Spacefrisian, I too usually field a 100% mech army, and even though I don't use lash my self, I've fought against it. Lash is really rough if your opponent can get first turn, and even if he pops one rhino with anything, then he can bunch your dudes up, and drop 1-3 vindicator shells on that one squad. If he's successful in destroying that one squad on his first turn, it's more then worth it because he just knocked out a 250ish point unit.

 

To make things worse he has two of these, so if he's rolling above average, he has the potential to grab two CSM squads and either messed up those squads, or out right wipe them off the board.

 

Granted I play CSM, so I have no psychic protection whatso ever, but even if I had a librarian with hood, he still has two daemon princes, and statistically at least one should be able to lash you.

 

Two lash princes with vinidies/oblits is bad, but even if you get to his lines or he gets to yours, you still have to worry about the rest of his army. Lash is okay on it's own, but when you really build a list around it, it is absolutely devestating, less if you play mech, but still really good.

[Sezar]

I'm gonna have to respectuflly disagree with you on Lash Spacefrisian, I too usually field a 100% mech army, and even though I don't use lash my self, I've fought against it. Lash is really rough if your opponent can get first turn, and even if he pops one rhino with anything, then he can bunch your dudes up, and drop 1-3 vindicator shells on that one squad. If he's successful in destroying that one squad on his first turn, it's more then worth it because he just knocked out a 250ish point unit.

 

Not very likely that he will pop your transports on turn1 if he's fielding 3 vindis, as that ate all his HS slots and that means no Oblits.

 

Anyway, Lash is still useful in 5th, cause sooner or later some of your enemy's troops will get out of their transports. Has it lost potential since 4th? Yeah, but still a good power. Not that I use it much (the more I play CSM, the less I get it), but it has its uses.

 

To me, Tzeentchian's WT + WoC if the absolute combo and way to go, that will most of the times pay its costs. Even GoC spam on a 1kSons army can do the job against MEQs, and it sure is amazingly fun, but that 6'' range really hurts.

[JamesI]

To me, Tzeentchian's WT + WoC if the absolute combo and way to go, that will most of the times pay its costs.

Last night my Tzeentch Sorceror and his raptor retinue got charged by Belial and a deathwing unit. Belial killed 3 raptors, my sorceror killed the entire deathwing squad, then the powerfist champion killed Belial. I played 2 games with my chaos guys (one deathwing, one pure genestealer horde) and never got to use WoC at all (the one time I could have I failed my psychic test). But just from close combat with WT, the sorceror earned his points back several times over.

[chillin]

Not very likely that he will pop your transports on turn1 if he's fielding 3 vindis, as that ate all his HS slots and that means no Oblits.

 

But the most spammed lash list is 2Xlash with 6-9 oblits, and that can certainly open rinos, even LR's on turn 1-2.

Lash is WAY broken for 20 pts, not to mention annoying, "I don't mind if you blow my guys up, but let me move them to their deaths please"

The lack of play testing for lash, is just another example of the lack of effort/time put into this dex. GW's response to how broken lash is "We really didn't know people would take two" ;)

[Grey Mage]

Nurgle's Rot:

A fun "AoE" power that is most useful against armies with large units of infantry with low saves. It is used in the shooting phase, so it can be used after the Sorcerer deep struck, disembarked out of a transport or having jumped into position, so it is possible to get a decent number of enemy models within range. In previous Codices this power allways wounded on a roll of 6, but now it has a Strength value of 3, which means Orks and Genestealers are wounded on 5+ and Eldar, Guard and Gaunts are wounded on 4+. The power can be used even if the sorcerer himself is in combat, which is neat since then the enemy models will be closely packed. It is a satisfying experience to be swarmed by a mass of bodies but then eradicate 30% or the Orks or 40-50% of the DE/IG/Gaunts just with your Sorcerer's power.

While the added Toughness of the Mark of Nurgle will already grant the Sorcerer some improved resilience, he should still not charge into the enemy hordes by himself. A squad of Plague Marines (or Terminators) should make for a decent protection, and he does not have to use the power as soon or as often as possible. Just see if there are good opportunities.

As a SW player Ive been laughing at lash for a long time with WTTs but this power in particular has been painful for me as a Wolf Player and as an Eldar player- particularly that ti basicly gives you a large number of I 11 attacks that hit automatically. Up until recently its been a pain to counter and has gone off far more reliably than Id like.

 

Because one of my local opponents is a Deathgaurd player and takes this all the time. *sighs*.