Vehicles and Terrain

[Pendulum]

A small debate in my local gaming group.

 

A vehicle can travel through difficult terrain, though is subject to a dangerous terrain test. I know there are exceptions, but let's just say we're only talking about Rhinos here.

 

How far does this extend? For example, could I drive over the top of barricades like the Urban Barricades set? Or on top of sandbags? How about over the top of a dug-out? Or even on top of a short ruin? Between levels on a ruin?

 

I have a tactic of parking a rhino full of a tac squad on top of the objectives, and flaming everyone with enough courage to come near. But in the last game I parked it on top of a barricade, and this debate started.

 

I've searched the BRB and as far as I can see this is a legal tactic.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The best we can consider is a house rule that terrain features are removed if a vehicle drives over them and survives it's dangerous terrain test.

 

Any ideas?

[Narthecium]

I don't see why you couldn't. You can stop wherever you see fit, so long as you take the appropriate test. I don't see why driving over sandbags removes them while driving through a building doesn't, y'know? House rules though I think would go in your case.

[Commander Sasha]

At the beginning of the game, you specify all terrain types; a table of types versus conditions can help here, I've seen one, possibly in the Cities of Death book?

If it is ordinary terrain, such as buildings, woods and sandbags, which a vehicle could plow through, it confers cover, difficult infantry, dangerous for vehicles; barbed wire is dangerous for infantry, clear for vehicles; tank traps are impassable to vehicles, but not even difficult for infantry.

 

I love a board set up like this, with areas that are easy for wheels only, and others vice versa!

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well generaly people dont like you sitting models were they dont fit, but I dont think thats an actual rule. As far as actual rules Sasha is entirely correct. Players are expected to define terrain before the game starts, and those definitions need not be constant. Hell I saw a game once where the players decided a fence only provided cover from weapons with AP 4 or worse.

[Veldrik]

A small debate in my local gaming group.

 

A vehicle can travel through difficult terrain, though is subject to a dangerous terrain test. I know there are exceptions, but let's just say we're only talking about Rhinos here.

 

How far does this extend? For example, could I drive over the top of barricades like the Urban Barricades set? Or on top of sandbags? How about over the top of a dug-out? Or even on top of a short ruin? Between levels on a ruin?

 

I have a tactic of parking a rhino full of a tac squad on top of the objectives, and flaming everyone with enough courage to come near. But in the last game I parked it on top of a barricade, and this debate started.

 

I've searched the BRB and as far as I can see this is a legal tactic.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The best we can consider is a house rule that terrain features are removed if a vehicle drives over them and survives it's dangerous terrain test.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Tell your buddies to go and read the rule book ;)

 

 

Hard cover, page 13

 

Wobbly Model Syndrome

Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted minitature chipped or even broken. In cases like this we find it perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know it's "actual" location. If later on your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check the line of sight.

Of course if you prefer things to be completely clear and exact, then stick to simple, flat terrain.

 

Area Terrain Specific

When moving models into this area, you may temporarily remove the rocks, trees, etc (if they are not glued in place!) to make moving the models easier. Remember, however, to put them back where they originally were (or as close as possible!) after you finish moving, as they may affect the line of sight of models shooting through that area terrain.

 

Difficult terrain includes areas of rubble, jungles, woods, ruins, brush and scrub, rocky outcrops, boggy ground, low walls, hedges, fences, razor wire, barricades, steep hills, streams and other shallow water (as well as terrain features that combine seeral of these types, such as a ruin surrounded by woods).

 

So basically you are following the rules. If you can move on it and it is not impassable, then your rhino can mount it - and the stuff you mentioned is all difficult but passable.

 

The only thing you have to worry about is HOW to place your mini - I would recommend keeping it in place as it's pretty central where it is sitting for LOS and range.

 

If I were you, since your opponents don't like you rhino camping, I'd upgrade from

rhino + troops

to

rhino + troops & techmarine/iron priest on bike

 

Gives you an oportunity for a conversion (if techmarine, give him a C-beamer - use the old space hulk ones or something), and lets you get in close to the rhino to keep on repairing it.

 

Oh, and if you have the points, maybe an obliterator - since it ignores terrain :)

 

If your gaming group refuse to look at the rules then just stock up on rhinos razorbacks, LRCs and obliterators and blokes riding bikes and speeders and just get EVERYONE camping on any terrain you can, jsut for one game, and point out the rules.

Also make a few "destroyed/wrecked" vehicle models. Use some cardboard or styrene sheets cut to the appropriate shape etc.

Then when a vehicle gets popped, park another one over it.

[Pendulum]

A small debate in my local gaming group.

 

A vehicle can travel through difficult terrain, though is subject to a dangerous terrain test. I know there are exceptions, but let's just say we're only talking about Rhinos here.

 

How far does this extend? For example, could I drive over the top of barricades like the Urban Barricades set? Or on top of sandbags? How about over the top of a dug-out? Or even on top of a short ruin? Between levels on a ruin?

 

I have a tactic of parking a rhino full of a tac squad on top of the objectives, and flaming everyone with enough courage to come near. But in the last game I parked it on top of a barricade, and this debate started.

 

I've searched the BRB and as far as I can see this is a legal tactic.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The best we can consider is a house rule that terrain features are removed if a vehicle drives over them and survives it's dangerous terrain test.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Tell your buddies to go and read the rule book :P

 

 

Hard cover, page 13

 

Wobbly Model Syndrome

Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted minitature chipped or even broken. In cases like this we find it perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know it's "actual" location. If later on your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check the line of sight.

Of course if you prefer things to be completely clear and exact, then stick to simple, flat terrain.

 

Area Terrain Specific

When moving models into this area, you may temporarily remove the rocks, trees, etc (if they are not glued in place!) to make moving the models easier. Remember, however, to put them back where they originally were (or as close as possible!) after you finish moving, as they may affect the line of sight of models shooting through that area terrain.

 

Difficult terrain includes areas of rubble, jungles, woods, ruins, brush and scrub, rocky outcrops, boggy ground, low walls, hedges, fences, razor wire, barricades, steep hills, streams and other shallow water (as well as terrain features that combine seeral of these types, such as a ruin surrounded by woods).

 

So basically you are following the rules. If you can move on it and it is not impassable, then your rhino can mount it - and the stuff you mentioned is all difficult but passable.

 

The only thing you have to worry about is HOW to place your mini - I would recommend keeping it in place as it's pretty central where it is sitting for LOS and range.

 

If I were you, since your opponents don't like you rhino camping, I'd upgrade from

rhino + troops

to

rhino + troops & techmarine/iron priest on bike

 

Gives you an oportunity for a conversion (if techmarine, give him a C-beamer - use the old space hulk ones or something), and lets you get in close to the rhino to keep on repairing it.

 

Oh, and if you have the points, maybe an obliterator - since it ignores terrain ;)

 

If your gaming group refuse to look at the rules then just stock up on rhinos razorbacks, LRCs and obliterators and blokes riding bikes and speeders and just get EVERYONE camping on any terrain you can, jsut for one game, and point out the rules.

Also make a few "destroyed/wrecked" vehicle models. Use some cardboard or styrene sheets cut to the appropriate shape etc.

Then when a vehicle gets popped, park another one over it.

 

Ahh of course, I didn't even think to consult "wobbly model syndrome" in the book on this. And the area terrain stuff is useful as well.

 

Thanks for the pointers in the right direction. It wasn't a case of my group not following rules, it was more a case of someone questioned the legality and it made me start wondering as well.

 

Thanks again.

[DarkKnightCuron]

A lot of the above pretty much covers what I was going to say. HOWEVER:

 

From a realism standpoint (and from someone who has seen A1 Abrahm Tanks in action), anything that's a tracked vehicle can pretty much climb over anything it darn well wants to, provided it isn't a verticle wall. Even then, it could probably just plow through it. Just my 2 cents.

[Isiah]

True true but never confuse 'real life' scenarios with the rulebook as the two aren't really intended to correlate in that manner.

[DarkKnightCuron]

True true but never confuse 'real life' scenarios with the rulebook as the two aren't really intended to correlate in that manner.

 

Ach, my bad. My particular gaming group tends to look at things from the 'real life' standpoint when it hits the grey area, except during tournaments (unfortunately)

[Veldrik]

we use to play house rules of different terrain types for different units and ranges - can be fun, just have to declare it at the start.

 

eg: wire mesh, 6+ cover save at long range (harder to target), 5+ at half range

or wobbly wood is normal at low speed, dificult at running

 

(this is mainly necromunda with a few mods)

[thade]

The book does say that you can define some terrain as terrain that is Difficult but not for Tanks, for instance. So long as you and your opponent are clear at the start of a game, I'd say almost anything goes.

 

For instance, my gaming club has been allowing vehicles to take Dangerous Terrain tests to smash *thru* the walls on Ruins, figuring that if a unit can make a Difficult Terrain test to pass through a wall with charges or brute force according to RAW, why can't a vehicle use a Difficult Terrain (i.e. Dangerous as it's a vehicle) test for the same reason?

 

I have a lot of fun driving my Vindicator through things. >=)

[Ming]

I was blindsided in a tournament (ard Boyz prelims) when one gaming group arrived and all of their club players drove vehicles through and on anything for a terrain test. In one game, my opponent had a landraider crusaider stuck on a tall retaining wall (nose up) and a rhino stuck on another retaining wall for two separate structures he tried to drive over rather than around. I think they saw it as a way to get an edge on the rest of us because we did not expect it.

 

In games since, I prefer to name terrain as passable or not passable to vehicles, around a simle caviat - if it is a tank trap obviously you cannot drive over it. If it is a walled structure taller than the vehicle you cannot drive over it. As far as infantry movement, I prefer to declare you have to go through doors and windows on ruins, no hole blasting unless other building rules are also in play (it would take a shooting phase to blast a doorway with grenades)...but again, would want to be specific about it before the game starts.

 

In another example of negotiated terrain niceties - In our ongoing Badab Campaign, we determined that you would not be able to move through or over spacecraft interior walls, and all doors were treated as open. We declared that at the beginning to make sure we all knew what movement features we all worked under.

[CuznP]

I like the idea of declaring what a vehicle can drive upon pre-game.

 

What do you think of vehicles driving on top of destroyed vehicles?

[rat of vengence]

I was blindsided in a tournament (ard Boyz prelims) when one gaming group arrived and all of their club players drove vehicles through and on anything for a terrain test. In one game, my opponent had a landraider crusaider stuck on a tall retaining wall (nose up) and a rhino stuck on another retaining wall for two separate structures he tried to drive over rather than around. I think they saw it as a way to get an edge on the rest of us because we did not expect it.

 

In games since, I prefer to name terrain as passable or not passable to vehicles, around a simle caviat - if it is a tank trap obviously you cannot drive over it. If it is a walled structure taller than the vehicle you cannot drive over it. As far as infantry movement, I prefer to declare you have to go through doors and windows on ruins, no hole blasting unless other building rules are also in play (it would take a shooting phase to blast a doorway with grenades)...but again, would want to be specific about it before the game starts.

 

In another example of negotiated terrain niceties - In our ongoing Badab Campaign, we determined that you would not be able to move through or over spacecraft interior walls, and all doors were treated as open. We declared that at the beginning to make sure we all knew what movement features we all worked under.

Then tell the blkoke with the upended Landraider that none of his lascannons can bear due to the nose up angle. I am pretty sure they don't traverse that far. :P

 

RoV

[RobDonkey]

I think common sense is your best bet. Other than house rules obviously.

 

Can a Rhino drive over another Rhino? No. Push it aside? Probably.

Can one go over sandbags? Again, probably.

They'd easily do fences and barbed wire but buildings are a difficult one. I'd expect a super heavy to go through/over anything and maybe a Land Raider could crash through. A vindicator would blow its way through but even with a dozer blade I don't think a Rhino or Predator would (assuming the building was not made of brick or wood).

 

And as for a Land Raider climbing a building? That makes no sense! I can't imagine how difficult it is for a terminator to get up off its back after being shaken around inside one.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I think common sense is your best bet. Other than house rules obviously.

 

Can a Rhino drive over another Rhino? No. Push it aside? Probably.

Can one go over sandbags? Again, probably.

They'd easily do fences and barbed wire but buildings are a difficult one. I'd expect a super heavy to go through/over anything and maybe a Land Raider could crash through. A vindicator would blow its way through but even with a dozer blade I don't think a Rhino or Predator would (assuming the building was not made of brick or wood).

 

And as for a Land Raider climbing a building? That makes no sense! I can't imagine how difficult it is for a terminator to get up off its back after being shaken around inside one.

I hope your not includeing ruins in your defintion of building. Cus you CAN plow through those.

 

Just remember behicles dont take difficult terain tests, they take DANGEROUS terain tests. Yes you can plow right thogh those sandbags, but unless the players declaired them as "clear for vehicles" there is a 1/6 chance to take an imobilized result.

[RobDonkey]

I was really referring to intact buildings.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I was really referring to intact buildings.

Then everything is coposetic as they tend to be classfied as impassible anyway. Generaly to get on a building you have to have jumpinfantry/jetpacks/jetbikes/skimmer/Tyranids with flesh hooks and hace space to place the model.

[Commander Sasha]

And as for a Land Raider climbing a building? That makes no sense! I can't imagine how difficult it is for a terminator to get up off its back after being shaken around inside one.

I love the mental image of a tipped up 'Raider, Assault ramp open to the skies, and a jumble of Termies piled up inside, stargazing and forlornly trying to get up! TDA Twister, anyone? :)