Worst "Counts as Space Wolves" out there

[Ominous Anonymous]

The worst, (or possibly best, if your in a dark humor mood) I've seen is Thousand sons 'counting as'. . . I was forced to verbally slap him.

 

Long Fang

 

So, essentially, you freaked out on some random dude because his army wasn't painted the way you wanted it to be.

 

EDIT: Maybe it's because I'm a converter at heart, but finding out unique or clever ways to represent armies using another codex is probably one of the cooler things about his hobby. If some guy came up to play with four Sorcerers and a bunch of Rubric Marines and some "Aspiring Sorcerers" on Discs of Tzeentch, I'd be cool with it as long as everything was clear.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the guy was using similar models to represent different units, forgetting what was what, etc., but I still think having to reprimand somebody over a hobby is pretty low.

[Long Fang]

The worst, (or possibly best, if your in a dark humor mood) I've seen is Thousand sons 'counting as'. . . I was forced to verbally slap him.

 

Long Fang

 

So, essentially, you freaked out on some random dude because his army wasn't painted the way you wanted it to be.

 

This hobby...

 

Not to be taken literally, tho perhaps a :sweat: on my part would have helped.

Hes actually a good friend, the verbal slap was for the irony which should be obvious . For the record his army isn't painted at all :devil: and not Thousand sons wysiwyg, let alone Space Wolf.

 

Long Fang

[Ominous Anonymous]

Fair enough, I apologize for my earlier post. I guess it makes sense because SW had an older codex for so long, and their codex doesn't really cover successors (if any) like the Vanilla Dex, Dark Angels, or even Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers get nary a mention), so seeing the book used for other armies is a bit off-putting. That said, I can't think of anyone who would be upset if loyalist rules were used for a pre-heresy Chaos Legion (or vice-versa), or Dark Angels to represent a 1st Company list, or if Blood Angels were used for a Pre-Heresy World Eaters list. It's all just power armour.

[Hfran Morkai]

Fair enough, I apologize for my earlier post. I guess it makes sense because SW had an older codex for so long, and their codex doesn't really cover successors (if any) like the Vanilla Dex, Dark Angels, or even Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers get nary a mention), so seeing the book used for other armies is a bit off-putting. That said, I can't think of anyone who would be upset if Vanilla's was used for a pre-heresy Chaos Legion (or vice-versa), or Dark Angels to represent a 1st Company list, or if Blood Angels were used for a Pre-Heresy World Eaters list. It's all just power armour.

 

It'll be us trying to hoard the goodies because we've got shiny stuff!

 

I do feel sorry for the other people switching their armies for effectiveness (jars with my idea of the hobby) but I'll still play 'em, the hobby is about "counts as" these days.

[Long Fang]

The answer is fine Fenrisian ale!!!!

 

Wait is that ever NOT the answer?

 

/me throws Ominous Anonymous a tankard.

[Grey Mage]

I dont see the problem with using a power armoured space marine armed with a boltgun to represent a power armoured space marine armed with a boltgun.

 

So what if his armour is green, red or blue instead of grey, providing you can tell which unit hes in and wargear is wysiwyg then its completly legal.

 

Personally I have a large number of ultramarines and dark angels currently making up the ranks of my imperial fists army... until I get around to striping and repainting them at least.

Ahh... but theyre also armed with a Bolt pistol OR a BP+CCW. I know some people who have been playing regular marines whod like to jump over just for the better CC results- that I dislike.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Ahh... but theyre also armed with a Bolt pistol OR a BP+CCW. I know some people who have been playing regular marines whod like to jump over just for the better CC results- that I dislike.

 

If they wanted an extra CCW they would already be playing with CSM rules. :D

[Hfran Morkai]

Ahh... but theyre also armed with a Bolt pistol OR a BP+CCW. I know some people who have been playing regular marines whod like to jump over just for the better CC results- that I dislike.

 

If they wanted an extra CCW they would already be playing with CSM rules. :D

 

Well why all the complaints about Grey Hunters being how Tactical Marines are? It's because we're loyalist and not playing by Papa Smurf's rules because, well, we don't!

[Veldrik]

I'd like to add that I think part of it is (eg,like tourneys) that if the army is from GW, you play with the appropriate GW rules.

so using Space wolves codex, but using, painting and calling them dark angels is not on, as Dark angels fall under their own codex.

Some things like Iron Hands for example fall under the Space Marines codex.

Ordos:Xenos falls under Space marines.

 

These are all official chapters from GW.

 

However if you were to make up something like "Space Lions" then it would be alright to use space wolf rules, aslong as they are declared before the start as they msot likely aren't in teh correct identifiable colour scheme.

WYSIWYG tournament rules applies to colour scheme as well as model (part) components.

And if you are using a "count as" army using the models of one codex, but the rules from another, GW rules are that your opponent has to gve you permission to use it - otherwise you must use the original rules. So in a tournament any one can come along, be a prick when they verse you, tell you that your dark angel wolfwing are illigit and your screwed as you then have to go back to using your dark angel codex.

 

same for using eldar models, but using marine list.

 

or chaos using wolfies just so they can access wolf claws, MoW and drop pods.

 

WYSIWYG is models and colour scheme, otherwise your best hope is to only use your army for friendly games (and even then your friend can tell "that's not on")

[Olgerth Istaarn]

My army is a shade of crimson, has nothing to do with Space Wolves or Fenris, and counts as Space Wolves.

 

To be fair, I'm not fielding anything that looks like a wolf, don't have any beasts or cavalry that need to be handwaved away, and have no Marks of Wolfen on my Grey Hunters.

 

Oh yeah, I STILL refer to my Grey Hunters as Tactical Marines, and to Rune Priests as Librarians in the course of the game. Of course, I declare who is who before the game gets rolling.

 

Where am I on the scale of badness?

[Hfran Morkai]

My army is a shade of crimson, has nothing to do with Space Wolves or Fenris, and counts as Space Wolves.

 

To be fair, I'm not fielding anything that looks like a wolf, don't have any beasts or cavalry that need to be handwaved away, and have no Marks of Wolfen on my Grey Hunters.

 

Oh yeah, I STILL refer to my Grey Hunters as Tactical Marines, and to Rune Priests as Librarians in the course of the game. Of course, I declare who is who before the game gets rolling.

 

Where am I on the scale of badness?

 

Very bad!

 

They're nothing like Tactical Marines! That word burnssss!

 

I'm cool with that.

[the jeske]

WYSIWYG is models and colour scheme, otherwise your best hope is to only use your army for friendly games (and even then your friend can tell "that's not on")

are you sure about that , because I have seen three GT tournament packs and there is nothing like that about them .The have to be painted to use rules was in the 4th ed tournament pack , not in the 5th ed one.

[Grey Mage]

My army is a shade of crimson, has nothing to do with Space Wolves or Fenris, and counts as Space Wolves.

 

To be fair, I'm not fielding anything that looks like a wolf, don't have any beasts or cavalry that need to be handwaved away, and have no Marks of Wolfen on my Grey Hunters.

 

Oh yeah, I STILL refer to my Grey Hunters as Tactical Marines, and to Rune Priests as Librarians in the course of the game. Of course, I declare who is who before the game gets rolling.

 

Where am I on the scale of badness?

Id play you. Id also be interested in your fluff, and how your marines got the legion style wargear. :D.

 

Edit: I agree with Jeske, Color Scheme has nothing to do with WYSIWYG, though how you paint a peice of wargear can be. WYSIWYG is about the equipment on a model, and the model overall- and its mostly about consistency.

[Spacefrisian]

I wouldn't mind if they use a count as , but if they only do it for powerplay purpose i would love to totally rip their army apart. (game wise that is)

[Sven Bloodskull]

I wouldn't mind if they use a count as , but if they only do it for powerplay purpose i would love to totally rip their army apart. (game wise that is)

 

Maybe only gamewise for you ;)

 

Btw, Spacefrisian, i recognize you from gwhobby.net. My account is named sir_pokealot there ;)

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Ominous Anonymous]

WYSIWYG is models and colour scheme, otherwise your best hope is to only use your army for friendly games (and even then your friend can tell "that's not on")

 

Yea...I severely doubt this is the case.

 

Id play you. Id also be interested in your fluff, and how your marines got the legion style wargear. ;).

 

Taking a combat knife wasn't something made up by the Space Marines, dude.

 

 

Edit: I agree with Jeske, Color Scheme has nothing to do with WYSIWYG, though how you paint a peice of wargear can be. WYSIWYG is about the equipment on a model, and the model overall- and its mostly about consistency.

 

I do agree here: consistency is key to a successful counts-as.

[Grey Mage]

Id play you. Id also be interested in your fluff, and how your marines got the legion style wargear. ;).

 

Taking a combat knife wasn't something made up by the Space Marines, dude.

Never said it was- but on the table top the people who get BP+CCW+Bolter are all old Legions- SWs and Chaos to be exact.

 

Leave the real world out of this ;).

[stinkenheim]

at the end of the day, if someone has taken the time to paint/convert their army then they should be allowed to play with whatever rules they want.

if somone has gone out and spent their own money on models and wants to use a different codex to represent them then thats also fine.

its a game, the idea is to have fun.

ive just had a game against a friend who used codex: space marines to make a blood angels force, is this wrong. No. he's tried using the pdf document they have and it doesnt work so i suggested using c:sm to make a list and it works better at the moment. sure when the new blood angels dex comes out he'll likely use that but he shouldnt be forced to use an ill thought out codex just because of the colour scheme he has chosen.

the same applies for people using space wolves codex as their ruleset. they shouldn't be restricted to a codex that they don't think fits their fluff or that works well because they chose to paint their marines a certain way.

 

@ veldrik, i assume when you say that colour scheme is part of wysiwyg rules that you mean the colour scheme that games workshop show in the codex. because if thats the case then i have no right to call my wolves space wolves because they are painted differently. its a ridiculous notion, and i apologise if this seems like an attack on you as that isn't my intention. it just baffels me how people think they can dictate to someone how they can enjoy their hobbey.

 

*rant mode over* soryy if any of that causes offence, it truly wasnt meant to but at the end of the day it is a game and there are different ways to enjoy. some may take great pride in having an army painted in the exact same way as the codex shows. others may like to paint it differently. some may even prefer to use the ruloes of other armies to better fit their chosen chapter/company. its their choice, their money and their models.

 

each to their own

[Raibaru]

This is like the third one of these threads I've read and I still don't understand the problem.

 

Why would you suffer through playing Deathwing when Space Wolves undeservedly got an all terminator force with better terminators, better wargear, and a better HQ?

 

I think you'd have a point (a very small one not even worth discussing much like this one, but a point nonetheless) if the DA codex wasn't such crap to begin with. But it has so many inconsistencies with 5th edition and so few things working in the codex favor that you can't help but wonder why a person would shoot themselves in the foot by not playing Wolfwing, blackscars, or ultragreens.

 

Would you feel better if these players played a second founding chapter and used these rules? How would you know, unless you played with someone for months, that the chapter they made up on their own is using the Space Wolves codex for legitimate reasons and not just because it's the newest thing on the block?

 

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'deathwing' force and counted as an Imperial Fists' Titanhammers.

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'thousand sons' force using Iyanden rules.

 

Why? Because these codex better represent those armies then the ones GW designed for them.

[Veldrik]

@ veldrik, i assume when you say that colour scheme is part of wysiwyg rules that you mean the colour scheme that games workshop show in the codex. because if thats the case then i have no right to call my wolves space wolves because they are painted differently. its a ridiculous notion, and i apologise if this seems like an attack on you as that isn't my intention. it just baffels me how people think they can dictate to someone how they can enjoy their hobbey.

 

*rant mode over* soryy if any of that causes offence, it truly wasnt meant to but at the end of the day it is a game and there are different ways to enjoy. some may take great pride in having an army painted in the exact same way as the codex shows. others may like to paint it differently. some may even prefer to use the ruloes of other armies to better fit their chosen chapter/company. its their choice, their money and their models.

 

each to their own

 

 

For the tournaments before hand, it was for fair play that they had to be easily recognisable at all times during game play.

So if the mdoels lets say are standard marines, being used with rules of space wolf grey hunters or wolf guard (power armour), and all the terminators which may have been converted dark angles had the appropriate war gear (wolf claws), any thunderwolves are on 60mm bases and of a similar model size, then if they were declared as a Space Wolves codex at the start that would (or use to be), even when painted red, as they are still recognisable as space wolves with eithe rpower armour, or termi armour with wolf claws, and the thunderwolf is of the correct size even if its a big red bunny rabbit.

[Veldrik]

I looked up the old rules (the last tournament I was part of was around 10 years ago, so thats when, atleast over here, they were pretty hard arse.

The stuff below is from the 2008 gt player pack, and the paint colours isn't reqed anymore, but wysiwyg is, citadel rules still in there, and scratch built is only allowed for models which don't already exist (so no scratch built thunderwolves).

Although you could say that you based it on the rider :)

 

I also noticed under painting that you CAN have an unpainted army now aswell.

I'd love to see one win, so they can feature it in white dwarf.

 

From the GT Player Pack from games workshop (ie the official GT)

PAINTING AND MODELING RULES

There are a number of things to note here: Mandatory Painting Requirement and the consequences of not having a painted army, and the Awards available to those who field armies they did not paint themselves.

As everyone who is competing at a Grand Tournament has put a great deal of time and effort into their army it is only reasonable to expect that their opponents have done the same. Therefore, it is mandatory that you bring a fully painted army to the Grand Tournaments. It is quite within the rights of your opponent for them to request you remove any units/models that are not painted from the table. Judges will be on hand to enforce this rule. Failure to remove unpainted models from the table will be considered unacceptable behavior and you may be ejected from the tournament.

While it may seem strange, some people will not read these rules before they attend a GT and expect that they can bring an unpainted army. The first time a competitor brings an unpainted army to a GT they will have two choices. The first is to play with an army we provide and receive only half scores (in all categories) throughout the tournament. The second is to voluntarily leave the event.

The second time they bring an unpainted army to a GT they will be turned away, with absolutely no refunds given.

This will mean that those who did not read the rules before the event get a very clear message at the show, and will hopefully bring their “A” game to the next Grand Tournament.

There has also been much discussion about those people who bring armies they did not paint themselves, either because they feel they lacked the time and/or skill to paint their army. As the intent of the event is for everyone involved to have a fun, nerdy weekend pushing cool toy soldiers about over cool terrain against other enthusiastic hobbyists, anyone can field an army they did not paint themselves.

Before the tournament begins, everyone will be asked if they painted their own army. Those that did are eligible for all the awards we will present at the end of each event. Those that did not are only eligible for the Best General, Best Sportsmanship, and Favorite Opponent awards. All awards are described in the Scoring section of this packet.

Note: We know there will be grey areas (people fielding the odd model that was painted by their son/wife/best friend) and if you converted and painted 95% or more of the model count of your

army yourself, then you are considered to have painted your army.

Conversions, WYSIWYG, and “Counts As”

Non-Games Workshop miniatures are not allowed in the Grand

Tournament and will be removed in the same way as unpainted miniatures.

Conversions must begin as Citadel miniatures and contain a majority of Citadel components. All other models will be removed from the table. They must be of the appropriate type for the troops they represent and comply with the “Counts As” rule below.

ForgeWorld miniatures may be used to represent models or options from the Codexes and Army Books allowed. This means you could use a ForgeWorld Demolisher turret or Death Korps of Krieg troopers in your Imperial Guard army but would not be allowed to use Heavy Mortars or Centaurs.

The army must be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get).

This means that weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad.

Should you wish to field certain models in your army that “count as” something different in your list than the model that was originally intended you need to follow these basic rules: the models must be roughly the same size as those you are substituting them for (eg. you could not use Imperial Guard Ogryn to represent Imperial Guard Conscripts), you must be consistent throughout your army (eg. if both of your Space Marine Dreadnoughts have twin-linked heavy bolters - an option no longer present in the Codex - you could field them both as assault cannons, but not one of them as an assault cannon and the other as twin-linked lascannons), and finally you must be very clear with your opponent prior to the game, going over anything that may cause confusion. It may be appropriate to create a “cheat sheet” for your opponent that has pictures of the units accompanied by a description of each unit and it’s equipment.

Scratch Building

Games Workshop and Citadel Miniatures has an extensive range of figures to represent almost anything in our games. There are times when the rules are not represented by a current (or previous edition) model or figure from Citadel Miniatures.

Therefore, the Grand Tournament will use the following guidelines to handle the lack of a current model.

Models may be scratch built for purposes of representing models that do not have a current (or previous edition) model. If the scratch build is for a figure then the figure must follow the guidelines laid out for conversions. If the model is a vehicle then participants will be allowed to scratch build the vehicle. A scratch built vehicle will either be a heavily modified current model, or a model that is built from the ground up. The scratch built model must represent the vehicle with all options. Judges will be the ultimate authority if a scratch build will be usable.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Why would you suffer through playing Deathwing when Space Wolves undeservedly got an all terminator force with better terminators, better wargear, and a better HQ?

 

The use of 'undeservedly' just cracked me up :)

[Veldrik]

Why would you suffer through playing Deathwing when Space Wolves undeservedly got an all terminator force with better terminators, better wargear, and a better HQ?

 

The use of 'undeservedly' just cracked me up ;)

:) I think they deserve it, since the Dark Angels ran away and got most of their space wolf allies killed, just to take a bit of glory for themselves ;) fair compensation.

[ChaosPhoenix]

Ahh... but theyre also armed with a Bolt pistol OR a BP+CCW. I know some people who have been playing regular marines whod like to jump over just for the better CC results- that I dislike.

 

yeah but still they're buying the complete package with all advantages and disadvantages. It's not as if they're getting the best out of everything.

[Veldrik]

Also read this document from GW for count as rules for warhammer world

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom..._Engagement.pdf

 

note the rule for "models that don't have their own rules"

so armies based on and painted as Dark Angels, using Dark Angel models should be using the dark angels codex under the count as rules.

 

and then the rule on using a substitute not being allowed as it's insulting. And as a space wolf player, since space wolves hate dark angels, I find it insulting that an army that fluff wise is different, and rules wise has it's own codex uses the space wolves codex just for the sake of power gaming - if they are doing it to consider playing space wolves then thats cool, but power gaming with dodgey minis is not cool.

 

btw - I don't count using non gw minis as not, cool, if they've still put effort into painting/making them

and I don't expect someones first run at an army or testing a unit as dodgey, as its just testing so I don't mind if someone else does it.

 

If someone was playing a game with lions and funny pelts called space lions (make believe chapter) then it would be cool if they used space wolves.

Lion warriors (official chapter) however are supposed to use space marine codex rules.