Worst "Counts as Space Wolves" out there

[ChaosPhoenix]

basically: when friendship fails, rules come in.

 

If you can't stand people using "count as [your codex here]", don't play against them or go the rules way.

[Ominous Anonymous]

I wouldn't call using the SW codex over the DA codex powergaming in the case of non-Deathwing lists; I'd call it an exercise in sanity.

[Mal]

Actually I see nothing in that rules sheet that says you cannot take a dark green army with white wing and sword logo and call them death angels or something and use the C:SM rules.

 

At no point does it say that a red army with a blood drop motif must be played using the C:BA rules.

 

It simply says that your army must be painted and based. The 'count as' rules actually applies to scratch built and conversions, which must be based, painted and have a majority of GW/FW components, however if theycontain LotR components then your army cannot be nominated for best painted and cannot be shown in any GW publications.

[Veldrik]

Actually I see nothing in that rules sheet that says you cannot take a dark green army with white wing and sword logo and call them death angels or something and use the C:SM rules.

 

 

this one is from 2009 GT (chapter 2 trimmed, and chapter 3, see below quote for link to original GT Rules Pack from the gw site)

 

Requirements

 

A player who invents his own chapter, regiment etc. or uses an otherwise un-detailed Games Workshop one is at liberty to use any appropriate codex to represent it. Full WYSIWYG must be maintained and the player should make it crystal clear to his/her opponents what codex the army is using. An example of what is not permissible is a player who uses models that look like one recognised chapter whilst using the codex of another one.

 

 

Permitted Armies

 

Codex Space Marines

Codex Black Templars

Codex Space Wolves

Codex Dark Angels

Codex Blood Angels

You may use a chapter of your own creation based on one of the variant codices, so for example you could base your chapter on the Blood Angels codex but use your own colour scheme etc. If you choose to do this it is up to you to make sure your opponents are not misled in any way.

 

Codex Imperial Guard

Codex Eldar

Codex Dark Eldar

Codex Orks

Codex Tau Empire

Codex Necrons

Codex Chaos Space Marines

Codex Daemonhunters

Codex Witch Hunters

Codex Tyranids

Codex Daemons of Chaos

 

So that covers both make believe chapters (use what you want out of the "good" marines) and also covers the Dark Angels using Space Marine rules as a direct example of being "not permissible"

 

 

The links to all the docs I used are

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom..._Engagement.pdf

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ayer_packet.pdf

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...T_Rulespack.pdf

[Mal]

Ok, i'll concede that point....

 

But in return I'll ask you to concede the point of having to allow people to do so in normal matches since the GT rules do not apply unless house ruled to do so.

 

Simply put, I will not stop someone with a part painted army from fielding a squad or two from another army whilst they finish painting their models. After all not everyone builds the models before painting them, I know I dont.

 

Provided everything is WYSIWYG, I see no reason to cause a fuss over it, it is just a game after all, and a SW Grey marine using C:SW rules is no different in game terms to a DA green marine using C:SW rules.

[Veldrik]

Ok, i'll concede that point....

 

But in return I'll ask you to concede the point of having to allow people to do so in normal matches since the GT rules do not apply unless house ruled to do so.

 

Simply put, I will not stop someone with a part painted army from fielding a squad or two from another army whilst they finish painting their models. After all not everyone builds the models before painting them, I know I dont.

 

Provided everything is WYSIWYG, I see no reason to cause a fuss over it, it is just a game after all, and a SW Grey marine using C:SW rules is no different in game terms to a DA green marine using C:SW rules.

 

 

I won't stop them in friendly matches either if they are just substituting but still calling them space wolves for example, or using toy horses on 60mm cardobard for thunderwolves until they can afford the 20GBP for a metal thunderwolf either.

 

My points are to do with what I consider as a dodgey count as or not a count as, and my points were in regards to tournaments.

 

When playing at a GW or a TS I don't really mind what people use aslong as it is clear and aslong as it isn't pushing that using DA models, calling them dark angels but using Space wolves, Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines codices instead of their own, and aslong as things are the correct size for shooting. For what weapons they have, aslong as its written down somewhere I don't really care that much either.

 

In our gaming group however, we use GT rules except limits on army size (ie, not just 1700pts).

 

If playing Mordhiem and Necromunda we don't enforce WYSIWYG rules for weapons and missing limbs for most things, such as upgrading a las gun to an autogun, or difference between a plasma gun and a melta gun. Basically if its the right size so you can figure out if its a heavy or light weapon, then thats good enough since weapons are constantly changing and people are constantly loosing limbs.

Plastic kits helped a heap when they were released though as now we can buy two boxes of IG and a box of mordhiem/empire minis and pretty much have every combo of weapons allowed.

[Morticon]

Actually I see nothing in that rules sheet that says you cannot take a dark green army with white wing and sword logo and call them death angels or something and use the C:SM rules.

 

 

this one is from 2009 GT (chapter 2 trimmed, and chapter 3, see below quote for link to original GT Rules Pack from the gw site)

 

Requirements

 

A player who invents his own chapter, regiment etc. or uses an otherwise un-detailed Games Workshop one is at liberty to use any appropriate codex to represent it. Full WYSIWYG must be maintained and the player should make it crystal clear to his/her opponents what codex the army is using. An example of what is not permissible is a player who uses models that look like one recognised chapter whilst using the codex of another one.

 

 

Permitted Armies

 

Codex Space Marines

Codex Black Templars

Codex Space Wolves

Codex Dark Angels

Codex Blood Angels

You may use a chapter of your own creation based on one of the variant codices, so for example you could base your chapter on the Blood Angels codex but use your own colour scheme etc. If you choose to do this it is up to you to make sure your opponents are not misled in any way.

 

Codex Imperial Guard

Codex Eldar

Codex Dark Eldar

Codex Orks

Codex Tau Empire

Codex Necrons

Codex Chaos Space Marines

Codex Daemonhunters

Codex Witch Hunters

Codex Tyranids

Codex Daemons of Chaos

 

So that covers both make believe chapters (use what you want out of the "good" marines) and also covers the Dark Angels using Space Marine rules as a direct example of being "not permissible"

 

 

The links to all the docs I used are

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom..._Engagement.pdf

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ayer_packet.pdf

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...T_Rulespack.pdf

 

 

Thats the dutch GT pack. Its not like that in a few places - including most game shops ive been to. Especially where younger kids want to try new things.

 

The UK GT (at HQ) had nothing of the sort last time I played.

 

That being said, simple "flag swappers" are annoying to anyone.

 

Its one thing to be able to accurately portray your chapter through the use of another codex and excellent, innovative and creative modelling, but to simply pick all the power options and then attempt to justify theme whilst simultaneously maintaining all your original heraldry- thats a bit rubbish.

A very well detailed UM/DA/BT/BA army with great iconography and accurate attention to squad details being fielded as a more powerful codex is just a bit too gamey for my liking.

 

Theme it though- and i'll be easily swung. And lets not kid- SW have one of the best ways to field a first company army.

[Ominous Anonymous]

That being said, simple "flag swappers" are annoying to anyone.

 

Depends on the situation, really.

 

A list with lots of 10-man Grey Hunter squads, Skyclaws and 1 or 2 Long Fang units but painted as Ultramarines? Yea, that seems off.

 

A Non-Deathwing Dark Angels army using Codex: Space Marines? Perfectly OK with me.

[Sven Bloodskull]

This is like the third one of these threads I've read and I still don't understand the problem.

 

Why would you suffer through playing Deathwing when Space Wolves undeservedly got an all terminator force with better terminators, better wargear, and a better HQ?

 

I think you'd have a point (a very small one not even worth discussing much like this one, but a point nonetheless) if the DA codex wasn't such crap to begin with. But it has so many inconsistencies with 5th edition and so few things working in the codex favor that you can't help but wonder why a person would shoot themselves in the foot by not playing Wolfwing, blackscars, or ultragreens.

 

Would you feel better if these players played a second founding chapter and used these rules? How would you know, unless you played with someone for months, that the chapter they made up on their own is using the Space Wolves codex for legitimate reasons and not just because it's the newest thing on the block?

 

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'deathwing' force and counted as an Imperial Fists' Titanhammers.

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'thousand sons' force using Iyanden rules.

 

Why? Because these codex better represent those armies then the ones GW designed for them.

 

Because DW > WW? Because while we might have better wargear (the better termy comment is bull im afraid) in the form of combi-weapons, we do have to pay for it. Our SS/TH termies cost 20 points more than yours. Because while our HQ is better it also costs twice as much? Because you guys have free first turn deepstrike that wont count as a KP and can transport units bigger than 5 man? Seriously, DW is fine without having to resort to the SW codex.

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Brother Santios]

If you look at GWs pricing and cost up a new army even taking advantage of special offers (ie the SM box set out for christmas at £100) the average 1500 point army will cost in the region of £150.

 

Pre conversions, pre painting, pre basing.

 

Is it unreasonable for someone to take an existing bunch of miniatures that have the correct war gear and spend only £18(ish) for a new Codex and allow themselves more options for there money ?

 

This hobby isnt cheap and to insist that someone plays with exactly painted miniatures from x/y/z codex is crazy and spanks a little of elitism to me.

 

I have mentioned it before about a friend playing one army and just buying / converting the characters or wargear on one or two minis to completely re-theme his force - absolutely no issue with it - thrifty common sense!! lots of vehicle / troop options all uniformally painted and the codex in use present at the table.

 

Its a hobby - if you want to make an army with exacting detail and repurchase and repaint the same troops over and over again then thats fine but dont impose your own standards on someone else.

 

 

Painted - yes (no matter what scheme)

Theme fit - yes

Informed of what codex is in use - yes

Trying to use two different codex listings - no

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I think the trouble some Space Wolves players have is that, having waited nine years for our new codex but not gone off and (miss)used another chapter's lists, it seems a tadge rude for everyone to jump on the bandwagon when our new codex finally turns up.

 

That said, life really is too short...

[Veldrik]

This hobby isnt cheap and to insist that someone plays with exactly painted miniatures from x/y/z codex is crazy and spanks a little of elitism to me.

a) elitism = ultramarines

;) "insisting" > people do NOT have to play GT games. They are run by Games Workshop, and even parts wise they should be citadel (so no dark reaper thunderwolf cavalry for instance, or GIJoe ones either) etc. If you want to play in a GT, then play by their WYSIWYG in the rules pack that they give. If you don't want to play by their rules, then don't play at that tournament. Play at a local club instead.

c) isn't cheap - yeah I know, I've been playing for 20 years. From 8GBP to 35GBP for the same miniature... And if you think that is bad, at the moment the price in australia is 3 times that of the uk after conversion. On the plus side, I was from the era where warhammer armies were on average 5000 pts, and a goblin was only 2.5pts each. Armies that wouldn't even fit on an 10 foot x 6 foot table. And like real men, we foot slogged against shooting armies length wise. That's balls - none of this 24" between deployment zones. That's soft I tell ye.

 

 

 

Also, the only GT rulespack on the GW website is the dutch one at current. Ealier US, AUS and UK ones had the same rules from around a decade ago, but they seem to have slackened off alot since then.

 

Regarding flag swappers, I also think its wrong if its a "paint in DA colours cause' I like the fluff, and use SW/SM rules so I can win/cause its new". very wrong.

However if they come along, and spend time and effort and give the army a reason why its using SW rules, make the models all WYSIWIG (except heraldry) to fit BOTH the SW/SM rules AND the fluff, then that would be fun.

Eg; a dark angels death wing squad that is on the southern end of the ice world of fenris, in an espionage mission, who have already come across multiple space wolves and defeated them with losses.

This could be depicted as a rather rag tag looking group of marines. No longer clean shaven, all their lovely cloaks are tattered and worn+torn. replacing sectinos or the entire cloak with wolf pelts (model them to cover the entire body, so in a diff style to space wolves), the terminators and a select few seargents might carry a wolf claw, looted from any squads of space wolves they've come across (rep by a wolf guard). Lone wolves - keep them away from wolfey weapons, and just give them a storm bolter and powerweapon/power fist. His reason isn't that he wants to die in death/glory, but that he wants to kill as much as possible.

Keep everyone away from thunderhammers, storm shields and MoW, and keep looted claws down to a very small minimum. and no sagas except iron priest.

have no wolves or thnderwolves.

no unique characters, and no wolfey spells.

To go along with the whole espianoage thing, chuck in a unit of scouts.

Keep everything as mixed as possible (since space wolves are great for mixed units).

A terminator here and a guy in armour there, just to keep it mixed up - gives it the feeling of "well we are screwed,lets team up and make a unit" to represent losses in the mission through encounters with space wolves, locals, creatures such as ice wyrms and chamelleons and thunderwolves, and through attrition due to weather and no food (it is an ice planet after all).

If they modeled them all appropriately (clean base models, with tatty cloth and battle damaged (animal damaged) armour, then I would quite like playing against them as it gives the army great character. Plot/background and models to go with.

 

If some kid came up in a tournament and said "this is my dark angel army, and I've also got lone wolves in it and dreadnaughts and 4 hq" I'd tell them to either take a hike in not so polite terms, or to rename his army to "space wolves" or "green space wolves".

[Veldrik]

I think the trouble some Space Wolves players have is that, having waited nine years for our new codex but not gone off and (miss)used another chapter's lists, it seems a tadge rude for everyone to jump on the bandwagon when our new codex finally turns up.

 

That said, life really is too short...

 

 

I agree with those statements ;)

 

regarding the first one, I think it comes down to personallity type:

 

Space Wolves have pretty much always been a heavy fluff army. I mean lets face it, its like lumberjacks, vikings, truck drivers and roadies in space, with saftey markings all over their swords and to much booze and psycho guys running around whilst not winning lots of games. However even when they aren't a "I'm gonna win" army, the players don't give up and keep on playing because of the fun and the fluff behind it. So a space wolf player would stick to their fluffy codex even if it was the most outdated legal codex left - since they got rid of squats and space-zoats.

 

Dark Angels players, or atleast deathwing players, that I have come across have always been power gamers. That's fair enough, but I think thats why they are probably the most common amongst flag swappers. Because they want their terminators and they want to win, even though they still have their own codex.

 

so as a generallity - old school SW players are stubborn and prefer to play as space wolves with the cost of loosing more battles (3rd ed vs 5th ed rules for example), whilst Deathwing players are usually power gamers - which goes with the whole terminator thing.

 

But lets face it, space wolf wolf guard rock :) So although I don't like illegit powergaming flag swappers, atleast they chose OUR codex :) it's a good compliment

[TheKav]

So a space wolf player would stick to their fluffy codex even if it was the most outdated legal codex left - since they got rid of squats and space-zoats...so as a generallity - old school SW players are stubborn and prefer to play as space wolves with the cost of loosing more battles (3rd ed vs 5th ed rules for example).

 

But lets face it, space wolf wolf guard rock ;) So although I don't like illegit powergaming flag swappers, atleast they chose OUR codex :) it's a good compliment

 

Sorry for quoting in parts, but there's another side to your generalisation. I was a Wolf back in 2nd ed and rejoined the hobby in the current edition, so picked a vanilla codex chapter. However there's a lot of truth in what you're saying, wolves are always wolves.

 

On the whole, a lot of people are jumping onto the Space Wolf bandwagon because it's shiny and new. Give it time, and all but the beardiest "counts as whatever's the best" players will find their own allegiances. Meanwhile I hate being lumped into the category of bandwagon-jumper by people younger than my allegiance to Russ! Arrrghhh!

[Ominous Anonymous]

"Hey man, we're not the elitist, it's the Ultramarines!"

 

*Makes two long posts detailing how people should play use his codex. Irony is reaching palpable levels.*

[Veldrik]

"Hey man, we're not the elitist, it's the Ultramarines!"

 

*Makes two long posts detailing how people should play use his codex. Irony is reaching palpable levels.*

 

I have two armies, the other (my second) is a space marine codex, with the army as an Ordo: Xenos (since Ordos:Inquisition is yet to be released, and Deathwatch rules are no longer valid)

 

as for what the ultramarine thing comes from - they are supposed to be, fluff wise, the elite chapter of all space marines.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Oh, I understand that they're the elitist fluff-wise, but the attitude about setting rules for using a codex for outsiders is very elitist in of itself. A true Space Wolf player would welcome the new people and tell the rules to bugger off. :P

[Veldrik]

Oh, I understand that they're the elitist fluff-wise, but the attitude about setting rules for using a codex for outsiders is very elitist in of itself. A true Space Wolf player would welcome the new people and tell the rules to bugger off. :)

 

Nah, a real space wolf player would welcome them if they acknowledge that the space wolves were greater than dark angels!

 

after all, fluff wise (and rule wise in 2nd/3rd ed) space wolves hate dark angels and followers of tzeentch, they are one and the same :P

If they want to use our codex, they should come and join us! and we have dog biscuits and big hair.

 

no self respecting space wolf player would let their codex be insulted by having their enemies masquerading with it, ever!

[dezul]

just to set your minds at ease, i have a slaanesh marine army and im making some 'skyrars dark wolves'

 

their grey with tin bits trims and spacewolf shoulder pad markings.. this way i can use them as an undivided force to go with my slaanesh marines, or even a stand alone army of chaos marines and or space wolves.

 

im even considering making them "<insert chaos lord name here>'s blood wolves" so that i can use them as blood angels when the codex eventually gets released.. 3 armies in one that works legitimately with my existing army.

 

"counts as" is where it at.

 

1st non profit idea GW has had in a long time.

[Raibaru]

This is like the third one of these threads I've read and I still don't understand the problem.

 

Why would you suffer through playing Deathwing when Space Wolves undeservedly got an all terminator force with better terminators, better wargear, and a better HQ?

 

I think you'd have a point (a very small one not even worth discussing much like this one, but a point nonetheless) if the DA codex wasn't such crap to begin with. But it has so many inconsistencies with 5th edition and so few things working in the codex favor that you can't help but wonder why a person would shoot themselves in the foot by not playing Wolfwing, blackscars, or ultragreens.

 

Would you feel better if these players played a second founding chapter and used these rules? How would you know, unless you played with someone for months, that the chapter they made up on their own is using the Space Wolves codex for legitimate reasons and not just because it's the newest thing on the block?

 

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'deathwing' force and counted as an Imperial Fists' Titanhammers.

I wouldn't throw a fit if someone placed down their 'thousand sons' force using Iyanden rules.

 

Why? Because these codex better represent those armies then the ones GW designed for them.

 

 

Because DW > WW? Because while we might have better wargear (the better termy comment is bull im afraid) in the form of combi-weapons, we do have to pay for it. Our SS/TH termies cost 20 points more than yours. Because while our HQ is better it also costs twice as much? Because you guys have free first turn deepstrike that wont count as a KP and can transport units bigger than 5 man? Seriously, DW is fine without having to resort to the SW codex.

 

Sven Bloodskull

 

 

Feel free to explain how your terminators aren't better. The only thing you can argue for or against is how you view tons of powerfists in a unit. Me, since I look at a chainfist as compulsory anyway, would much prefer a unit with power weapons any day of the week.

 

Your mention about SS/TH termies costing more is accurate. But you ignore the fact that Dark Angels are using the generic brand storm shields sold on ebay40k.com as they are considerably worse.

 

I also think if you asked most players, they'd accept the premium you pay for your HQ over Belial any day of the week too. He's quite the pathetic HQ choice.

 

And then there's the sheer flexibility that your units have that I'm not sure I'd put my money on a DW unit over a SW unit any day of the week. In general, your unit will cost less, be more effective, and be more versatile then the DW alternative. The only exception to this is the small premium for dual claws if you're silly enough to get them or TH/SS which no DW player would take regardless.

 

All this thread has accomplished so far is to say Ultragreens, Blackscars, and Wolfwing are bad because we don't want to share our new toys with the class. But if you play Angels of Vengeance and ran out of decals half way through your army then you're a cool kid and can hang with us.

 

Doesn't that sound silly?

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Your mention about SS/TH termies costing more is accurate. But you ignore the fact that Dark Angels are using the generic brand storm shields sold on ebay40k.com as they are considerably worse.

 

I would MUCH rather have a 40 pt, 4+/5+ Inv model than a 63 pt, 3+ Inv model. Why? Because that Storm shield doesn't make a point of difference versus the majority of shooting out there.

[Grey Mage]

Feel free to explain how your terminators aren't better. The only thing you can argue for or against is how you view tons of powerfists in a unit. Me, since I look at a chainfist as compulsory anyway, would much prefer a unit with power weapons any day of the week.

 

Your mention about SS/TH termies costing more is accurate. But you ignore the fact that Dark Angels are using the generic brand storm shields sold on ebay40k.com as they are considerably worse.

 

I also think if you asked most players, they'd accept the premium you pay for your HQ over Belial any day of the week too. He's quite the pathetic HQ choice.

 

And then there's the sheer flexibility that your units have that I'm not sure I'd put my money on a DW unit over a SW unit any day of the week. In general, your unit will cost less, be more effective, and be more versatile then the DW alternative. The only exception to this is the small premium for dual claws if you're silly enough to get them or TH/SS which no DW player would take regardless.

Over all well cost more. We are more flexability- but we pay a premium for that flexability. The only time we get a discount is on the base price of our TDA VS the base price of a DA TDA. Logain is over twice the brice of Belial too... and we dont get a discount on our Dreads anymore either.

 

No, to many DA players see the idea of 33pt terminators with PW+SB, and never even think about the other inherent costs, and just how limiting PW+SB really is, or how much losing fearless can hurt a player.

[ChaosPhoenix]

Loosing fearless isn't that bad if you're outnumbered and regarding to Belial.. he might be worth 80 points while Logan is worth his points..

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My Dark Angel successor is modelled in such a way that I could use it as a Marine army, if I wasn't too mean to buy the Space Marine codex.

 

As it is I have Sammeal (a model nice enough to justify any amount of crappy rules) and a Chaos Terminator Lord with power axe and combi-bolter that makes a nice Belial (I know that the Chaos iconography is a trifle strange, but I like the model). They make it possible to field terminators, bikes and tactical marines as troops. That frees up elite and fast attack slots for all those other interesting units (veterans, scouts, assault marines). Of course I haven't finished the army yet so I have yet to see how it plays. :lol:

[juggernot]

Belail is worth well more than 80 pts.

A comparable WGBL would be 125 pts - 150 pts

and would exchange +1 W, Fearless and termi troops, banner, and apothecary for Acute senses, ATSKNF and Counter attack.

 

Not saying that Belail is Great, he is not all that great and not at all felxible (most special characters are not.

 

As to what is better I am continuing to play my deathwing with DA rules, I prefer to have a cheaper HQ in smaller games Logans points are very limiting. I guess that could be made up for using just the standard PW/SB Wolf Guard termis but Then I feel like you are giving away alot of the advantage of their flexibility. I will probably make a seperate WG list with logan at some point, but they will be modeled and painted differently than my Deathwing. (They will be green I am not a fan of SW grey, my deathwing are Bone colored)