Why Plasma?

[Psephos]

Hello Space Wolves!

 

You have found a new convert in this Ork player and I've found that I know very little about Space Marines.

 

I've been lurking for a bit, reading lists and following this forum. Here are a few questions that I have.

 

It seems that many people are choosing the Meltagun as their weapon of choice.

 

But, I can't figure out why the Melta is superior to Plasma Pistols or Plasma Guns. As near as I can tell, a Meltagun is fantastic against tanks when you are at half their range, so we have to be within 6 inches of a tank for a great big boom to happen. I see the point of arming Wolf Scouts with one.

 

Are the Pistols and Gun even worth taking, and if so what do they do? It seems like the codex is begging us to take them, by allowing us to buy two Plasma Guns and a Pistol per squad.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

-Psephos

[Quillen]

Depends ont he job of the pack. A Grey Hunter pack that is going to be fire support use plasma. More shots and your not charging.

 

Some people like to footslog thou and like to charge, so they go with a melta so they can shoot and charge.

 

Some have little in the way of tank killing goodness and they use meltas for that reason, and it works well.

 

 

So it's up to you. I favor plasma on my Grey Hunter that will be rapid firing. If I have a pack hunting tanks they get meltas. When facing orks I go double flamers.

Use Magnets or Pins so you can change the arms out. This way you have a choice.

[thade]

Whenever you gear out a squad, you want to have that squad's purpose/task in mind.

 

If they are utility ("all-around") or specifically anti-vehicle, a meltagun is a great idea as it will both pop the heaviest vehicles on the table and can potentially insta-kill a T8.

 

If they are anti-infantry, especially versus marines (or their equivalent), plasma can be very nice. Strength 7 wounds MEQ on 2+, and it's AP 2 (marine gets no armor save) and the plasmagun proper can rapid fire (VERY high odds you're going to kill a model). The risk of burning the plasma gun marine is small...1/6 chance you'll roll 1 times 2/6 chance you fail the following armor save = 1/12th chance it'll happen. Since you can fill out a GH squad and get the plasma gun for free, this is not a bad risk for a single marine.

 

So an all-around GH unit might take a melta, plasma gun, and a PF, for instance.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

People like meltaguns because of the tank busting ability, and you can fire and charge in the same turn. Plasma guns are rapid fire so you cannot do this. I think they are trying to make the plasma weapons 'THE' Space Wolf ranged weapon.

In larger games of 1500pts or more I plan on using atleast 1 units of GH with one or more plasma weapons. They are good for holding objectives.

Also, to field 2 plasma guns you must have 10 GH. I don't want to have a holding unit of 10 GH. I would rather make that unit an assaulting unit. And an ideal assaulting unit would carry flamers or meltaguns.

[Wildfire]

Plasma guns are rapid fire weapons, meaning you can't charge when you shoot them. That may be why a lot of people don't take them, otherwise they're fine. They have their place.

 

Plasma pistols have 12" range, and only one shot, and cost 50% more than a plasma gun. I would never take a plasma pistol at their current cost. I would certainly take one at 5 points. It'd be a sometimes thing at 7 or 8 points. I'd never take a plasma pistol at 10+ points (except maybe in a wolf scout squad, and then only at 10 points).

[Quillen]

I have been using the plasma pistols and they work wonders.

 

I have always used plasma pistols thou, and have a bunch of models already kited out for it.

 

I also feel they are way too point heavy thou. Should be 10 points like always.

[Valerian]

Hello Space Wolves!

 

You have found a new convert in this Ork player and I've found that I know very little about Space Marines.

 

Welcome.

 

It seems that many people are choosing the Meltagun as their weapon of choice.

 

But, I can't figure out why the Melta is superior to Plasma Pistols or Plasma Guns. As near as I can tell, a Meltagun is fantastic against tanks when you are at half their range, so we have to be within 6 inches of a tank for a great big boom to happen. I see the point of arming Wolf Scouts with one.

 

As stated, if you can get within 6", they can easily smoke the most well-armored vehicles, which makes them worthwhile. At 12" they will blast any non-vehicle model easily, too; all you have to do is hit and not roll a 1 to wound. The range is short, but we're trying to get to within 12" for Rapid Firing of Bolt Guns anyway, so its nice to have a reasonably cheap shot that is an easy Wound and doesn't allow any Armor Saves (kind of like a short ranged Power Fist).

 

Are the Pistols and Gun even worth taking, and if so what do they do? It seems like the codex is begging us to take them, by allowing us to buy two Plasma Guns and a Pistol per squad.

 

Plasma weapons are great, and are basically our version of the Orks' Kustom Mega Blasta. The Plasma Gun is Rapid Fire, so it complements the other weapons in the Hunter pack, well. Two shots within 12" and one shot out to 24" is great for a squad support weapon. Not nearly as effective at busting tanks as the Melta Gun, but can still do it, especially against side/rear armor. Just as good at killing infantry (including Elite, well-Armored infantry like Terminators and Mega Nobz) though, as the Melta Gun. Only downside is the chance that it will Get Hot, but with the Power Armor save your chance of becoming a casualty is only 1/18 per shot fired. The Pistol is pretty much the same as the gun.

 

As far as points go, the Plasma Pistol is a little bit overpriced, so a lot of folks won't take them. The price would be fine if it weren't for the chance to Get Hot, but that drawback should be taken into account and the price reduced somewhat to reflect it. Against foes with good armor saves, though, they really can help. Against regular Orks and IG, however....

 

 

V

[Grey Mage]

I use plasmaguns as firesupport- unlike meltas or flamers they have the same range and profile as a bolter, wich is the common use weapon for my GH FS packs.

 

Agressive Packs will usually get dual Meltaguns- I only have one pack with Dual Flamers.... Im not the biggest fan. The Flamers short range and somewhat redundant targets to my Boltweaponry makes it a deal only in that it is free. Still, its good to have one in case of cityfight. *Wich I am a fan of*.

 

The Pistol is actually not really that great in conjunction with the rifles- its a more agressive weapon, and as such is good to mix in with Meltagun packs, or in small packs. Its high strength/low AP will help against tough critters like monstrous creatures and wraithgaurd that your pack can then attempt to finish off in the assault.

[stinkenheim]

i never take plasma guns, i always take 1 meltagun and 1 flamer with a power fist in the squad. its because i fight orks normally and as you will know the difference between an ork charrging and being charged is massive. plus i play cities of death so the flamer helps by ignoring cover saves. the grey hunters in my force are a real jack of all trades unit. they have the ability to go against any unit in the game but not really excelling at hunting any one thing. i generally look for versatility in my units (except bloodclaws they are only good for one thing B))

[Wispy]

Meltaguns are usually my only anti-vehicle. Of course, you have to get close for them, but I find when my rhino finally gets popped the Grey Hunters are usually close enough to use them anyways.

 

Yeah, I've had great success with two-meltagun Grey-Hunter squads. Almost every game I've played recently they've got close enough for the 2D6 penetration, and they've killed every vehicle they shot at. 5 points is a bargain for the things I've brought down with them.

 

 

The dual plasma guns are certainly for more of a fire support roll. When you need to get a lot of wounds on infantry, even enemies with low toughness, they are handy.

[Ullr Direfang]

well i will say what has been said. it depends on what the squad is doing. the main advantage i see with Metla guns is it adds another AT weapon in an army that is usually is hurting in the AT department.

[Coverfire]

I prefer Meltaguns over Plasmaguns. Meltaguns are better verses vehicles then powerfists, are good infantry killers, are Assault 1 so you can shoot and charge, and won't overheat - which is the biggest reason I don't like using them.

 

I am almost always outnumbered when I am battling (with about the same amount of models as a Demonhunters army), to have weapons that seem to fry me more often then they kill my opponents models is not good when you are already outnumbered to begin with; and the risk of losing a model just to kill up to two of my opponents, which will probably get a cover save and will just be standard guys plebs anyway, and worth less points then the guy I am risking but just shooting. I find it is usually not worth it.

 

As for range, well Space Wolves don't excel at range combat anyway so more often than not you'll be wanting to be up and close to begin with. I try to have my guys on the move all the time, so they can only ever shoot 12" anyway. Unless you want to use a GH squad to sit on an objective then you won't benefit much from the extra range. With a meltagun you may miss out of a turn or two of shooting but more often then not (for me anyway) I would have lost that shooter to his own plasma weapon.

 

It actually surprises me that players can get through an entire game shooting 4-5 plasma weapons a turn and not lose a single guy because whenever I use a plasma gun it will over-heat taking the user with it more often than not. So I did the sensible thing, it wasn't working for me so I didn't use it.

 

I can think of times when using a Plasma gun and wishing it was a meltagun. I don't think the reverse has ever been true.

[Valerian]

As for range, well Space Wolves don't excel at range combat anyway so more often than not you'll be wanting to be up and close to begin with. I try to have my guys on the move all the time, so they can only ever shoot 12" anyway. Unless you want to use a GH squad to sit on an objective then you won't benefit much from the extra range.

 

I have one Grey Hunter pack that is designed to sit on the "home" objective, and thus it gets the two Plasma Guns. For my forward Consolidation and/or Assault packs, they get the Melta Guns for some of the same reasons that you just listed (although they usually will get the Plasma Pistol, too, which complements the Meltas).

 

V

[AdeptusDavidus]

I've been going with meltaguns, but right now I only have a small list, built largely around a pair of Grey Hunter squads mounted in Razorbacks. As mentioned above in the thread, meltaguns are decent at hurting ... just about everything. For me, meltaguns are a fluff choice - my army is a DIY using the SW 'dex, and their emphasis is on guerilla tactics and urban warfare, and meltaguns are ideal for that.

[nurglespuss]

Space wolves do just fine at range.

 

I tend to go with plasma for my other marine armies, but, have added a melta gun to a greyhunter pack, along with flamer and power fist, that is designed to move forwards.

[Dark Bjoern]

Space wolves do just fine at range.

I agree. Actual i run two GH packs, one with 2 Melta and the other with 2 Plasma. In my last game they marched side by side and drove the enemy with concentrated bolter fire straight into my BC. And the Plasmas had been very efficient against the 2 enemy Terminator squads. I wouldn´t miss them.

[Psephos]

Here is a huge "Thank you!" to everyone for the advice!

 

I now feel more confident about the different weapon load outs for my Grey Hunters.

 

Now its on to a search for some Meltaguns!

 

Psephos

[Spacefrisian]

I take Meltas over plasmas for the following reasons.

 

1. Meltas are great for assault Plasmas not.

2. Plasmas could overheat and it looks embarrasing when a marine ko's because of it.

3. Meltas destroy tanks better than Plasmas

4. What would you rather have in youre hand when a Dreadnought is coming youre way a Melta or a Plasma?

 

Their you have it.

[Bartali]

Statistically there's only a 6% chance of the user dieing each time they fire their Plasma Gun. Obviously if you're Plasma heavy and you've got a couple of guys rapid firing plasma each turn, one of them is going to die.

 

Plasma has it's place, and that's in fire support groups.

[Spacefrisian]

Statistically there's only a 6% chance of the user dieing each time they fire their Plasma Gun. Obviously if you're Plasma heavy and you've got a couple of guys rapid firing plasma each turn, one of them is going to die.

 

Plasma has it's place, and that's in fire support groups.

 

With only 6% you can imagine how embarrising that can be.

[Wolf Lord Jukes]

With the old codex I ran a GH squad with two plasma pistols and a plasma gun and shot at a Carnifex and ended up killing all 3 of my guys from overheating... that was definitely embarrassing.

 

That being said, I think Plasma guns are a great choice for GH that hang back (as many others have said). Plasma pistols, on the other hand, have never really been that effective for me. I've had a few good games with units with two plasma pistols but most of the time a bolter is a better choice for the points and role that GH play.