Anti-Deathguard ploys

[jaspiongitburna]

I have a regular opponent who runs a quite nasty "fast deathguard" army and I have trouble dealing with it.

 

I don't want to buy more models since I have something like 5000 points worth in total and am slowly slowly working through them. So it's a question of working with what I've got. I was hoping this thread may become something more of a "how do you deal with" type affair

 

his army

1500 points (from memory) :

a winged Daemon Prince with mark of Nurgle and Nugles Rot

A summoned greater Daemon

a close assault dreadnought

multiple 5 man deathguard squads (around 5 i think) with melta and flamer (perhaps one or two plasma guns) and champions (eg powerfists/powerweapons) plus icons

2-3 summoned daemon packs

2 rhinos with havoc launcher

predator destructor with havoc launcher

 

His 2000 point list adds another 5-man deathguard unit, another daemon pack, a second daemon prince and another rhino with havoc launcher (i think that's all... )

 

Tactics wise, the daemon princes will form a first wave and are usually very hard to target. Most of the deathguard plus the dreadnought will be running straight for me in a second wave. His summoned Daemons arrive and either claim an objective in his rear lines or reinforce in the main attack. Meanwhile the Rhinos and predator will rain havoc missiles on me, usually severely depleting my best ground units.

 

The problem I have, is basically that I simply cannot focus enough fire on either wave to stop it from sweeping me away. Boltgun fire is next to useless so I am relying on, for instance, one heavy weapon shot from my tactical squads (which are often crippled by Havoc launchers in any case). In assault, my squads just cannot cope with anything he throws at me.

 

I usually run with a Codex Ultramarines list (trying new ideas each time, most "almost work") and occasionally run a Multiwing list for Dark Angels.

 

How do you guys deal with heavily themed, resilient armies like this ? (I suppose Nob Bikers might fall into a similar category)

[Gornall]

Short answer... TH/SS Termies. They solve all of life's problems including Plague Marines, Demon Princes, Baldness, and Erectile Dysfunction. :D Besides that, MLs and Autocannons can make DPs cry if you have enough of them. A 3+ save is nice, but as every Marine player knows, it doesn't make you invulnerable. Plasmas and MG/MMs are also great as they ignore armor completely and FNP. If you're having problems with the Havocs, keep your guys in Rhinos. Single shots of S5 aren't that scary to vehicles. Also, it sounds like he doesn't have a lot of long-range firepower, so look at using a TFC. It will butcher the daemon packs and can force a LOT of saves on PMs as they footslog towards you. Vindicators are also great at killing footslogging PMs.

[Nehekhare]

2+ Vindicators, all-plasmagun-command squad, Chapter Master /w relicblade/SS, TH/SS-Termies in LR Redeemer, regular termies /w cyclones, MM/HF-landspeeders against his preds and lesser daemons, some lascannons in the troops (+razorbacks) against transports.

[minigun762]

Vindicators do a good job of betting rid of Plague Marines and bunched up Lesser Daemons.

 

TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider are your best bet against Daemon Princes, where their T6 doesn't matter.

 

Combi-Predators and RifleDreads would be very useful early on for popping Rhinos, killing the Dreadnought and stunning their Predator.

[Giga]

5 Th/SS terminators, a land raider, and a strong close-combat HQ (like a captain with a relic blade, storm shield, artificer armor, or things like Vulkan, Lysander etc.) will plow through most of his army. TH/SS termies will murder daemon princes, the dread, greater daemon, and plague marine squads.

 

Lascannons and multimeltas will shoot down his daemon prince, greater daemon, and dreadnought. Best ways to get these are through landspeeders, attack bikes, and the land raider classic. Once those are taken care of, you can also use them to shoot his plague marine squads. They're small, so even one or two dead plaguemarines is already going a long way towards weakening the squad.

 

Don't waste your tactical squads rapid fire on plague marines. Shoot at his daemon packs. They have only 5+ save against bolter fire and T4. So 17 bolter shots will on average kill 5-6 of them. Add in the flamer and the stormbolters on rhinos, and you might take another 2-4.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, if you want to be REALLY nasty, a good idea is to get a land raider redeemer to slaughter his plague marine squads. A vindicator is also a hard counter to expensive footslogging units.

[greatcrusade08]

How to beat death guard: Penicillin!

 

Seriously try a ten man sniper squad at 140 points, add a few plasmaguns to your army and try TH/SS termies,

All these things are useful in all-comers lists too.

 

GC08

[Grey Mage]

10 Man sniper squad for the MCs, Plasmacannons/Plasmaguns Tacticals and Plasmacannon Devastators for the rest, with a couple Dreads for support.

 

Something like this:

 

Captain- Bike, SS, Relicblade- 180pts.

 

10 Man Tactical Squad- Plasmacannon, Plasmagun, Powerfist, Rhino- 255pts.

10 Man Tactical Squad- Plasmacannon, Plasmagun, Powerfist, Rhino- 255pts.

10 Man Tactical Squad- Plasmacannon, Plasmagun, Powerfist, Rhino- 255pts.

 

5 Bikers- Attack Bike w/MM, 2x Meltagun, Powerweapon- 225pts.

 

Predator Annihilator- Lassponsons- 165pts.

Predator Annihilator- Lassponsons- 165pts.

 

1500

 

4 scoring units, plenty of anti-tank and anti-MC between the PCs and LCs. The PCs do antihorde duty aswell, and you can either mount up and roll out or sit back and shell them, depending on your needs. Plasmaguns are good against most everything, including hunting light tanks. In CC you have Powerfists in every squad, so you should be able to take on small plaguemarine squads while threatening even Daemonprinces. The Bike squad is your wildcard... they could be anywhere on the board and killing or assaulting with a turns notice. Theyre also damn good tank/MC/PM/Dread hunters, and no slouchs in the assault.

 

10 KPs is actually not high at all for 1500pts, so thats no big. 4 Scoring units, three mounted and one turboboosting means you should have no problem taking objectives throughout the game.

 

Thats what I would throughdown as a codex player in a PM heavy enviroment. None of the models are that unusual in their setup so you probly have most if not all of them.... some people dont have predators. If you dont, for whatever reason then switching them out for a pair of vindicators and upgrading the tac squads PCs to LCs wouldnt be a bad switch... and free up enough points to give you a couple more bikers, or trim a biker for a biking Librarian.

[Brother Nihm]

By the looks of things he has only 3 units capable of moving 12" per turn, that isn't fast in my book. ;)

Focus fire his prince if terrain permits, otherwise line up a tar-pit unit/counter assault unit (like the suggested TH/SS termies). Blow his two (only two? :lol:) transports out of the water and you should have plenty of space and time on your hands to shoot his slogging marines down.

Also, if the Frenzy roll goes against him in the beginning of the game you can ignore it.

 

Grey Mage's list is good.

[Nehekhare]

actually, my advice would be against snipers exept to minimise troop point costs. they hit on 4+, wound on 4+, most of the time do not ignore 3+ armor.

the standart rocket launcher will do better against the prince AND the rhinos AND can be used to ignore the plagues FnP afterwards. your codex troop choices will be washed away by demons and plagues, so keep it down and get a few shots off first.

 

bikes add speed, but that only means less time until the gap is closed - to be effective, bikes have to be close enough for the PM's speciality (close range firefight) to shine, and those have FnP, you don't. why bring a sub-par imitation of PMs against the original?

 

daemons will be destroyed by dedicated assault units with a save of 3+. those assaults bring flamers also.

against the PMs, PFs, THs or even better relic blades are the thing to go.

a unit of regular terminators will prevail against this army of his AND brings 2-4 rocket shots also. just be sure to kill the prince(s) first. or simply put lysander in it :P

 

by the way - 2 princes are just lame!

 

forget about autocannons. S7 DS4 means PMs get FnP and armor 3+, together with the prince. okay (yet still not overwhelmingly good) against rhinos, but again: what to do with it afterwards?

 

PB/ML or PC/HF dread will work quite well, too. shoot the PMs, avoid the princes and charge the daemons.

 

gunline up, shoot the big ones, slow him down, thin him out, let him come.

 

so my list would be:

lysander in 10 termies, 2xcyclone (in bolstered cover)

MotF in lysanders command squad with 4x plasma, TLLC razorback

2x 10 tacticals: ML, flamer, TLLC razorback (squadded, MLs in bolstered cover, flamers stay mobile)

2 vindicators

2 PC/ML dreads

 

after all, his list could be worse. think of tzeentch princes with warptime/wind of chaos, berzerkers, oblits and defilers.

 

Oh, forgot the thought of the day:

"Lo! When Foulness giveth rise to the tide - To be the insurmountable rock, weathering the storm on the sea of chaos" ;)

[jaspiongitburna]

Oh, forgot the thought of the day:

"Lo! When Foulness giveth rise to the tide - To be the insurmountable rock, weathering the storm on the sea of chaos" :devil:

 

I like that quote, very apt.

 

I like the ideas that have been presented, I use some of them already.

 

My marine force needs to find its style, i think. I have a variety of units but i know from expereince that some don't work. IE My Assault squad led by a Chaplain. My heart tells me to take them because they're one of my newest units and i want to get used to using them, and yet i know from running the maths over the years just how useless they are vs Plague Marines.

 

Here's the kind of thing i will nomally take (or variations on this theme)

 

Chaplain/librarian or Captain with Combimelta+relic blade

 

Elites - no terminators unless i'm playing Dark Angels (and i'm very rigid about that)

Otherwise 1 or 2 of dreadnought/ironclad/sternguard - I'm experimenting

 

Troops - 2 or 3 tactical squads, dont have the firepower or assault ability to beat the PMs but i need them. They usually sit and hold an objective and just blast away in a pseudo devastator role.

 

Fast Attack - multimelta bike squadron, vanguard veterans on foot with a few lightning claws (transported in a landraider), landspeeder typhoons etc.

 

Heavy - Vindicator/Landraider crusader/devastator squad

[Brother Gathurn]

I've found that librarians with the flamer power work well this type of unit (super tough and sruvivable) and i 1000 point librarion in a tac squad will almowt triple the amount of damage it can do even though it wont have a rhino. I'll second the vidicators, wspicaly since it dosent look like he has a ridiculus anount of anti-tank. however looking at your last post it seems you dont ussally take rhinos, i would definetly advise for taking rhinos, the added mobility and survivability helps alot, and since your tac squads are just sitting shooting the added survivablity will help alot and will almost tottally negate havoc launchers

[jaspiongitburna]

As far as Rhino transports go, i'll certainly be looking into that, its something on my "to do" list although I haven't played a lot lately - Been too busy with Space Hulk ^_^ .

 

And to be blatantly honest, i've been getting closer and closer over time. First with my purchase of a Vindicator in the summer, and most recently finally recording a draw and a win by taking a Dark Angels list with Deathwing (the win came when i used a "command squad" of Belial, Apothecary, Librarian. They ran amok in the backfield destroying vehicles and absorbing all his havoc launcher and predator fire, while the rest of my army dealt as much damage as they could to the assault wave. What was annoying was that as soon as I'd bought my vindicator, he went out and bought a second daemon prince (making it 3 monstrous creatures plus dreadnought). Now he's on about buying some slaaneshi raptors in his next 500 points.