For those of you with Biker Command Squads

[silversmith82]

How do you best kit them out? FNP and T5 is pretty nice, figuring you run the company champ, give the other 3 vets stormshields and 1-2 meltaguns in there somewhere? I believe I am correct in assuming that the and/or for choosing weaponry means that a vet can take 2 options in that list? Going with that assumption would a good one look like this?

 

Biker Command:

 

-1 Company Champion

-2 vets w/melta gun, power weapon and storm shield

-1 vet w/thunder hammer and storm shield/company standard

-1 Apothecary

 

This seems pretty freaking nasty when turbo boosting and a true tough as nails multi purpose unit. 3+ majority invulnerable, FNP, and loads of power weapons. Is this a good starting point, is it legal?

 

And no before you ask this is not a Vulkan list, I'm thinking of just finishing the Imperial Fists army I started years ago and never painted instead of a new Inquisition army. I'd be using Lysander for my only named character as I have a problem with "counts as".

[Deus de Mortalis]

I believe I am correct in assuming that the and/or for choosing weaponry means that a vet can take 2 options in that list?

 

Yup. They have two weapons, each of which can be replaced.

 

Going with that assumption would a good one look like this?

 

Biker Command:

 

-1 Company Champion

-2 vets w/melta gun, power weapon and storm shield

-1 vet w/thunder hammer and storm shield/company standard

-1 Apothecary

 

This seems pretty freaking nasty when turbo boosting and a true tough as nails multi purpose unit. 3+ majority invulnerable, FNP, and loads of power weapons. Is this a good starting point, is it legal?

 

And no before you ask this is not a Vulkan list, I'm thinking of just finishing the Imperial Fists army I started years ago and never painted instead of a new Inquisition army. I'd be using Lysander for my only named character as I have a problem with "counts as".

 

I'm not completely sure if that is legal with those two vets having a melta gun, power weapon, and storm shield, but it looks like it is in the codex. FNP is neat, but you should act as if it isn't there. This squad is going to be targeted by weapons that deny it, plus the first casualty you are going to take is always going to be the apothecary anyway.

 

You have a 360(?) point squad of only 5 models. That is 72 points per model! You have ten power sword and 3 thunder hammer attacks on the charge, averaging about 4 MEQ kills on the charge. To put it into perspective, an assault squad of 10 men and a power fist plus a Chaplain with jump back averages about 7 MEQ kills on the charge, costs 330 points for 11 models, and has plenty of ablative wounds. I've never used them because they sound so bad on paper. Even with the 3++ saves on 3 of them, it sounds like they aren't going to last too long.

[rat of vengence]

Don't forget, majority armour means nothing in 5th; you allocate wounds.

 

Too many expensive eggs in one basket in my opinion, but it could be fun :woot:

 

RoV

[Grey Mage]

Note: not all of the command squads options are "replace" some things they can just "take". Just a couple options though.

[waaanial00]

Well my layout is a little less expensive but then again its a lot less durable to specific things.

 

My units rolls with

 

- Champion

- 2 Vets with Power Weapons

- Banner

- Apothecary

 

It turbo boosts attracting shooting then targets a weaker unit to bully. It is not a uber unit because I have looked at the cost and potential for it and it doesnt work so well. Putting a fist in there is not brilliant because there are far too few bodies to take it, there are units which cant be made more survivable and anything you are going to need a fist to kill is going to bypass T5 and FNP.

 

You should be using these to kill weaker smaller units, they are not assault terminator killers! Their shooting prowess is nice but they should really be focusing on shooting T4 infantry, AP1 anti tank is nice but if you are taking a biker command then you are taking bikes who have access to melta weapons on much cheaper frames!

 

I have considered adding Storm Shields to this unit, it usually takes many more deaths in CC than it does from ranged efforts (one bit exception to this was when the unit took a direct hit from a Shock Attack Gun rolling 2 6's for strength - all models disappeared!). I am however more concerned with adding a potential 45 points to a unit which already costs 300+. If I need storm shields I will dust off my Assault Terminators, if I take my bike command unit I will be making the most of my FNP and T5 (attacking S3 units is fun!).

 

Wan

[ShinyRhino]

I'm not a fan of the melee Bike Command Squad. Too few bodies. I prefer the Plasma Death Bike Command Squad. 24" range of rapid fire plasmagun goodness with FNP rerolls, OR 36" range of single-shot plasmagun goodness with FNP rerolls. (Both ranges take into account the bikes' 12" moves).

[Giga]

I don't have a biker command squad, but if I was making it I would probably give them a powerfist and 4 meltaguns, and leave it at that. The idea would be to turbo boost, pop a transport, and assault the contents. Hopefully, their T5 and FNP would allow them to absorb one hell of a lot of small arms shooting.

 

Another idea, but this takes additional points, is to put a bike librarian with vortex of doom and null zone/force dome to keep them company. This way you got a mobile firebase that can fire off 4 str8 ap1 shots + small pieplate str10 ap1 at 12". Quite killy, I'd say + the libby gets FNP from being in the squad.

[Allerka]

I run mine with two power fists, a standard, and all storm shields, attached to a Captain on a bike. Makes them VERY durable, they can soak up a ton of fire with a 3+/3+ save. I don't get to use FNP too much, but it comes in handy on occasion. Of course, just charging them blindly at the enemy is generally a bad idea, so keeping them hidden or supported by other units is key. With most of my games being in semi-open terrain, I usually turbo-boost most of the army forward, then in turn 2 my regular squads are blasting stuff with the guns while my Command Squad hits something in melee. There's not a lot they can't stand up to, but if I play things right, they'll tear stuff up and usually distract the opposition from the "lower priority" targets that are still blasting vehicles left and right, but aren't in melee range.

[silversmith82]

Well I was looking at these guys again, for half the points I can get a normal biker squad that does basically the same thing when we're talking tank hunting which is what they are best for IMO. Just wanted opinions/ideas. Taking all storm shields is great, but definitely would want to keep them ranged. They would be VERY hard to remove with T5, 3+/3+ AND FNP...

[Sanctjud]

I suggest keeping them cheap unless it's a 2000+ game with 'uber unit' in mind with attached characters.

Do not overestimate their defensive qualities. The limit to teh squad size is IMO a huge turn off.

 

A fist and 2 special weapons totals about 250 points....that's pretty expensive already. If you have any extra points, you can afford to bling them out.

 

Now, for those with different set ups, it's most likely that they are role oriented.

Special weapons are an option. Now combat is super sexy, but if there is the need in the army list for special weapons of a specific type, the command squad to help with that regard.

Full combat is an iffy thing. They don't have the numbers to be taking on other dedicated assault units IMO. They are comfortable in a counter charge and interception roles.

[FabulousRex]

I've found 2 general load-outs to work well:

 

Apoth, 4 Flamers, 1 w/Fist, 1 w/SS, 1 w/Meltabomb=270pts

This squad is fairly cheap for what you get, and that is 4 fast-moving Flamers that can layer on the hurt very quickly. The SS is an insurance policy, the PF helps with mop-up duty after the flamer barrage, and the MB equips everyone differently in the squad, allowing fun wound allocation shenanigans.

 

Apoth w/SS, 2 w/SS, 2 w/Dual Claws, 2 w/MB=320pts

Attach a Chaplain and the Khan to this squad, and if played carefully can tear through much of your opponent's infantry. Though as mentioned earlier, they work best as an immense counter-charge. One particularly good niche army they work well with is the Partial Pod force. Take some Scouts to start on the board and bring down the nasty Pods 1st turn, focus on survival and defense, then have Khan And Friends come along and absolutely rock someone's face off. You could bring even more weaponry for more cost, but I like having ablative SS guys and keeping the good CC weapons on dedicated Claw-wielders. The MBs are allocated to a Clawer and SS'er, respectively, to play wound allocation fun games.

 

So, basically build your army around the Mounted CmndSqd, or give them some Special weapons and have them hit targets of opportunity.

[Duce]

Khan with:

 

3 guys with lightning claw and storm shield, apoth and company champion

 

Lotsa S5 reroll wound attacks on the charge and FNP to keep them alive little longer.

 

 

I also always outflank them so their not traveling the board and use them to hit a flank where required.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I like command squads, I like them SHOOTY. CC comand squads while quite scary, when you consider how much they cost, well they arn't THAT scary.

 

I like them as plasma bases, tank hunting with meltas is fine, but again other things do it as well (ie attack bike). I havnt seen a flammer squad in play (but 4 flamers and a powerfist sounds like a scary prospect, add in a harnessed techmarine or MoTF and you get a squad with 5 flamers and 4 powerfist attacks)

[Resv]

One of the brilliant strengths of a Biker Command Squad is the ability to abuse the wound allocation rules making this unit INCREDIBLY survivable. Try mixing up what you carry on each Marine to maximize this.

 

My Command Squad looks like this:

 

Captian:

Bike

Storm Shield

Relic Blade

and either/both:

Hellfire Rounds

Artisan Armor

 

Command Squad:

Champion

Storm Shield/Hammer Vet

Storm Shield/Power Sword Vet

Storm Shield/Lightning Claw Vet

Apothecary

 

I Try to keep the total cost of the Command Squad under 330 points always. Pushing their cost much further really isn't all that worth it.

 

I don't use my command squad all that often anymore due to taking Terminators and a Land Raider instead. Points wise I have found this to be more effective but to each their own!

[Sanctjud]

@Resv:

I wouldn't say "INCREDIBLY" survivable when compared to nob bikers.

It's the fact that they don't have a second wound which makes it....../shrug, less profitable and yet takes more time out of gaming.

[Resv]

@Sanctjud

True they aren't Nobz as they don't have a second wound but this makes it all that much more worth while. You can funnel high S shots at one Model rather than half the squad. Going up against a Plague Marine Squad with 2 Meltas I much rather only risk one Biker rather than 2, wouldn't you? It is very profitable and it really does keep the squad going for just that little bit longer rather than losing a good chunk all in one turn. Wound Allocation also extends to assaults keeping that hidden Power Klaw from it's full potential.

 

Also, wound allocation doesn't really take any time at all if you plan for it, soon as your opponent starts rolling start allocating and counting them out, its a basic concept of 5th Edition.

[Sanctjud]

To funnel 5 WOUNDS on a single model.

Assuming a 5 man squad then that would mean a total of 21 wounds needed to be caused...in which case everyone takes 4, with one person taking the last wound to be 5.

 

The plauge marines could just elect to shoot the plasma/melta guns and nothing else and then you'll have 2-4 guys taking whatever saves with no doubling up.

 

I"m sorry, but I think you may have some things mixed up.

How would wound allocation help with fists?

It's only 2-3 attacks, so doublting up until you have....2 guys left.

 

What are you trying to say? It doesn't look 'profitable' from that angle. I'm not quite seeing it so far...I could try guessing, but that wouldn't be too productive.

[Grey Mage]

Show me a rule that says you can voluntairily not fire a weapon after declaring the squad is firing. Please?

[ShinyRhino]

Show me a rule that says you can voluntairily not fire a weapon after declaring the squad is firing. Please?

 

That's a tough one. There's no rule that says you can't, either.

[Giga]

Show me a rule that says you can voluntairily not fire a weapon after declaring the squad is firing. Please?

Page 16, 5th ed rulebook:

 

A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers (as some models may have one-shot weapons, for example). This must be declared before checking range, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time.

[Resv]

To funnel 5 WOUNDS on a single model.

Assuming a 5 man squad then that would mean a total of 21 wounds needed to be caused...in which case everyone takes 4, with one person taking the last wound to be 5.

 

The plauge marines could just elect to shoot the plasma/melta guns and nothing else and then you'll have 2-4 guys taking whatever saves with no doubling up.

 

I"m sorry, but I think you may have some things mixed up.

How would wound allocation help with fists?

It's only 2-3 attacks, so doublting up until you have....2 guys left.

 

What are you trying to say? It doesn't look 'profitable' from that angle. I'm not quite seeing it so far...I could try guessing, but that wouldn't be too productive.

 

What the.... For some reason I just knew it was going to come to this. I never said anything about funneling 5 wounds on a model, that is something you tossed in, I assume, to make a point. I have to say I haven't seem 21 successful attacks from a single unit shooting vs. T5.

 

Also, it is 6 units when being shot at if you run your Captain/Khan with this unit.

 

For the Plague Marines only firing Plasma/Melta weapons is why I take Storm Shields on most every unit anyway, redundancy is always worth while. Now only shooting Plasma/Melta you miss out on what the rest of the squad has to bring to the party, namely bread and butter bolters, but I get your point.

 

I have to agree with you about the Power Fist, not a good example on my part. How about instead a Power Sword or Agonizer instead, something that hits on the models unaltered initiative rather than at I1. Unless you are assaulting a single unit then there is more than likely going to be other attacks coming your way which you can divy out. Again the Fist is a bad example and you will have to excuse me for that one. But being shot at is where I really see the most success from wound allocation.

 

Example Time: (From a recent game this last weekend)

Plague Marines shoot and hit with 6 Bolters and 2 Melta shots.

I know that I have enough wounds to at least allocate 1 to each of my 6 Bikers (including Captain) with 2 left over. From the start that my Apothecary is too valuable to risk so he gets a bolter shot and my Power Sword/Storm Shield Vet is kinda on the bottom of my priority list so I decided to give him Melta Duty. Once every unit has one wound I toss the last Melta shot onto my PS/SS Vet and the final bolter onto my Captain. Everyone makes their saves EXCEPT my 1 wound on my Captain and 2 wound on my PS/SS Vet carrying the Melta shots. Captain makes his FNP and shrugs it off but the PS/SS Vet goes down swinging taking the other Melta Shot down with it.

 

Moral of the story is this:

With 4 of the same unit you really run the risk of losing more than 1 model. Had I been running something like that in the above example I would have lost 2 of my Biker Squadron rather than only one.

 

From my perspective risking a ~65 points worth of Biker rather than ~130 or more is very profitable and completely worth the time. I can mitigate out serious damage that in other cases might cripple my very expensive squad of Beat Down. Now I agree with you that getting shot up by a squad of Fire Dragons completely ignores what I set this squad up to do, but the fact is that FD fire will ruin any units day. The real key to this set up is being able to mitigate fire from Troops, and other small arms infantry, rendering their damage potential not nearly as effective as it might be. Allowing my Command Squad to get to where they need to be rather than being shot up in a single round.

 

Redundancy and Mitigation (besides Power Weapons/Fists, Storm Shields, and Assault Weapons) are part and parcel of a Biker Command Squad, and can be exploited by a savvy player.

[Sanctjud]

@Resv:

I'm sorry for taking your post in the wrong direction.

Now that I read it again, holy crap.

I read: "Funnel high 5 wounds onto a dude"

It actually reads along the lines of "funnel high S (strength) wounds onto a dude"

I think my eyes deceived me when I posted last night, huge difference.

 

Sorry, that was a brain fart there, and I made a comment in the past about being partly blind.... I guess this supports that claim :P

 

___________________

 

As to the example.

I never said it doesn't work. Just saying that it's not as good as the Nob Bikers' extra wound... and that it's situational.

Most small arms bounce off anyway, hence the focus on special weapons.

Now, we'll assume stormshields are always around, but 3++ is better than 3+/FNP with respect to the opponent trying to kill them.

 

In addition, IMO the low model count is the killer for the unit.

 

Then there's the misc. issues of gaming groups and gaming standards.

This kind of allcoation can be jerky and can be taken differently by different gaming groups (Note it's perfectly legal) but it has no bearing on (soft scores/sportsmanship/friendliness if people still use those).

[Resv]

@Resv:

I'm sorry for taking your post in the wrong direction.

Now that I read it again, holy crap.

I read: "Funnel high 5 wounds onto a dude"

It actually reads along the lines of "funnel high S (strength) wounds onto a dude"

I think my eyes deceived me when I posted last night, huge difference.

 

Sorry, that was a brain fart there, and I made a comment in the past about being partly blind.... I guess this supports that claim ^_^

 

No worries mate! It is always good to clarify a point further as I myself had given a bad example in my first post when I talked about Mitigating wounds caused by a Power Fist!

 

As to the example.

I never said it doesn't work. Just saying that it's not as good as the Nob Bikers' extra wound... and that it's situational.

Most small arms bounce off anyway, hence the focus on special weapons.

Now, we'll assume stormshields are always around, but 3++ is better than 3+/FNP with respect to the opponent trying to kill them.

 

In addition, IMO the low model count is the killer for the unit.

 

Then there's the misc. issues of gaming groups and gaming standards.

This kind of allcoation can be jerky and can be taken differently by different gaming groups (Note it's perfectly legal) but it has no bearing on (soft scores/sportsmanship/friendliness if people still use those).

 

The Storm Shield, Armor Save, and FNP together are pretty drastic but when it comes down to it I agree with you on all points here. I think you hit on a good point about Sportsmanship of taking such a difficult unit. It is legal, true enough, but there might not be many people that want to play with you after they find out what your going to put on the table. Personally I don't even like fielding such a unit even in a competitive setting but my in my Club we are constantly trying to perfect and tweak Tournament Lists. This is all totally off topic though!!!

 

I was messing around last night with a few ideas and I tried out setting up a unit based around shooting rather than hand to hand combat. I tried out 3 different variants in as many half games with a Mate of mine and wasn't all that impressed. I'm interested in how other players put a Shooting Biker Command Squad to good use.

[Sanctjud]

4 Mobile special weapons is 4 Mobile special weapons. ^_^

[Bjornas]

This is how I run my command squad at 1500:

 

Captain on Bike w/ Relic Blade, Bike. 165 pts.

-Command Squad on bikes, 350 pts.

Vet #1: PF, SS, Meltagun

Vet #2: LC, SS, Meltagun

Vet #3: LC, SS, Meltabombs

Company Champion

Apothecary

345 pts.

 

I think it's "go big or go home" with command squads. If you try to keep them cheap, say ~300 pts, they'll die alot faster than if you spend 50-ish points more on them. They attract A LOT of fire, as they most of the time are the biggest and most immediate threat, so they need as many Storm Shields as they can get. One model will almost inevitably die before you get to the enemy, which is why I find the company champion very handy for 15 points (you'll hopefully get to use his coversave anyway). If I'm gonna upgrade the squad any more it'll be TH for vet #1 and meltabombs for vet #2.